Some interesting species bulbs

Pard, My seedlings are recovering. They are almost back to where they were leaf wise before the great rabbit picnic. Although some of the smaller ones have disappeared.

Andrew

Lilies are really amazing. It seems like once the bulblet reaches a certain size (like pea size) they easily recover from that type of leaf loss. Just when you think they are gone forever, up comes a new little green spear! I'm telling you, they are wonder plants! With the benign neglect my seedlings get I probably hold a record for numerous recoveries, especially with the slugs and snails around here. The way I look at it, if a bulblet doesn't make it then it wasn't fit, in the sense of survival of the fittest.

I found this out too. A pot of my L.formosum seedlings got sun scorched from an unexpected hot day while they were in the little plastic tent and all looked dead. Most have new leaves now.

Keeping my fingers crossed for L pardalinum and kellogii seedlings which were nipped at just below soil level! I did see lots of sciarid flies buzzing around soon after, no little grubs evident, so they must have been the culprits. They will be very tiny though, but I have hopes.

This is L. duchartrei 4 days ago, buds on both swelling quickly.

My L. duchartrei hasn't come up. I am thinking of doing a post mortem.

Give them time, you got yours in early April, I got mine late January and they have been in a greenhouse. You might just break off the growth tip!

Actually it was planted in Sept or Oct. 06

Aaaaah, now that's different! Your zone is perhaps later?

I think an autopsy is still premature. It might not be post mordem. I now have two L. fargesii's up, from little bulblets planted in spring 2006. From Chen Yi, they didn't show at all last year.

(Hopefully, they are what they said they are. Still, they are a Chinese species, no matter what. And so is duchartrei.)

This message was edited May 18, 2007 4:08 PM

I have flowers of the unknown opening, they are small and by all accounts should be L. pyrenaicum.

http://www.deflorum.com/species/pyrenaicum.html

The scent is unpleasant and strong, something close to the smell of asparagus when cooking whiich is an awful smell, unlike the taste!

It measures 1.5" across with petals fully recurved, or close on 4cm diameter. This size matches the size given on the genus lilium site, the only thing which does not match is the bulb. There are several varieties of L. pyrenaicum, but it would be difficult to imagine that the bulb would be so much different in being rhizomatous. The size is also much larger than the 7cm, but it does have more than one stem.

The height is around 21" although I haven't measured it, that also fits with L pyrenaicum.

The bulb I bought of L. pyrenaicum has not emerged, I planted it in the ground, perhaps that was a mistake as most I put in pots are doing well. The pic of the bulb is near the top of this thread, it does match the description given.

Cute!

Flowering time fits L. pyrenaicum, May-June,

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/pyrenaicum.htm

and the fact that it is well established in parts of the UK as stated on the deflorum site.

Can anyone give me a reason as to why the bulb appears to be rhizomatous, the cut section is definitely very woody. Everything else fits!

I can only tell you that this is an amazing what-ever! Thanks for sharing, as always. I ordered this bulb,LILIUM pyrenaicum , last year but it proved to be unavailable at the shipping time. Now it is no longer listed on the site, but the owner might enjoy your queries. http://www.bulbmeister.com/index.html Patti

It is amazingly beautiful Patti! The pics are a very true representation of the colour.

I wondered if I should ask rareplants, that is where I bought the species bulbs from.

I'm trying to fathom how this bulb may be like it is, the flower is exactly like the pics of L pyrenaicum. If some bulbs can make several stems then they would be larger than the normal single stemmed bulb surely? Perhaps a stage of maturity as it has been around for some time. If the bulbs were congested and growing sideways, and they cut them away from the clump, at the same time severing the roots could there be such a large woody area at the base of the bulb?

The seller has one more I found listed on ebay with a buy it now price, not selling as it's really late. She has put her story on the listing, and has given the local nursery a bulb to try to ID as they don't know what it is either. Perhaps I should contact her to say what I think it is and ask how the bulb grows, i.e has she cut off the roots or is it rhizomatous.

She says it needs to be close to the surface as the bulbs like to be baked in the sun (origin rocky slopes?), I wonder if I buried my other bulb too deep.

Well I do know L. pyrenaicum is quite adaptable. When Dr. John Page was here last fall, he show some slides of the most wonderful drift of the species growing in a botanical garden at the southern tip of Ireland, z8-9?, and wet too.

Sherleft strikes again! Clues left all over the world, so it seems that Ireland has a few of them. The seller is in Northern Ireland but it is a small country, and I think most of it would be zone 9.

I have emailed her and asked the bulb question, how do they grow! Does anyone have a book with pictures of the bulb in?

The bulb I bought from rareplants has the same colouring, but it does have roots like a normal bulb. I find it difficult to imagine if the roots were cut off there would be a hard, fibrous surface under it and certainly not as large an area as the one from Ireland.

Beautiful! Great to see stages from bulb to bloom. I'm curious if the clump your ebay bulb came from had an enlarged or deformed basal plate that became woody. It will be good to hear what the grower has to say.

So, do you plan on using the pollen for experiments? Fellow mad plant scientists want to know, LOL!

Now that is a thought Neal! It just may have had a large and deformed basal plate, which would explain why it had no roots if cut from it. If it's been around for a long time that may have happened, and may be a common thing for all we know.

I imagine it will have made roots by now, I guess from the edges of the woody plate, I was wondering about how it would make the roots.

I haven't had a reply from the seller, they are selling quite a few plants, and making good money on some. They sold a white tree lupin for £25 buy it now! Others, blue and yellow tree lupins made good money too. The other lily has now sold, they stated it was the last until after they flowered as they were coming up to flower now, but really they shouldn't be selling them at this time or until the autumn.

I told them it was a lovely flower but also said the unpleasant scent fitted with L pyrenaicum, perhaps they felt a twang of guilt and won't reply as the auction stated 'beautifully scented'.

Thanks for the reminder about pollen, I wasn't thinking of it (too much else in the head), but perhaps I should freeze some pollen and check what it might cross with.

I now have quite a few of the other unlikely cross of gloriosoides and philippinense germinated. The parent philippinese now has two shoots growing, no visible stems as yet.

The flowers are opening quickly, I took a pic last night but it was getting dark so the flash went. 7 buds on one, 5 on the other

Wallaby1 "beautifully scented" is in the nose of the beholder. LOL

Yes I hear you intercessor, but they wouldn't sell them so easily if they said otherwise!

You haven't had your nose near them! Not revolting (close)but not beautifully scented either. The beauty of the flowers make up for it luckily.

I've been following this thread with fascination. Very exotic for a lily beginner. Just had to say how lovely that lily is. On behalf of the clueless masses, thanks very much for sharing.

Hi wickerparker, thanks for popping in ! I'm not an experienced lily grower but I learn quickly. Apart from the fact that if I get hold of an obsession I like to be very thorough!

I'm pleased you have found it interesting, keep watching!

Wallaby, you're always wowing me with those blooms. I'm still a bit stuck on the Gloriowhatits from last fall that you lured me in with.
Species, how can you not love them?

Nature does it best magnolia, try as we might to imitate or improve on nature we can't come close to the subtle beauty it bestows on plantlife.

Gloriosoides is sending up a spike now, I really should have given it a fresh pot of compost but I did that last year. I hope it does as well this year, surprisingly it never looks like it will do much until it gets taller.

Here we go again! Now I must look up that lily poly thingy if I can find it.

I found the chart but L. pyrenaicum isn't on it!

Has anyone any idea of what it is most likely to cross with?

http://www.liliumbreeding.nl/polygon.htm

I found the answer, as I thought similar species in surrounding areas, but it doesn't look easy as embryo rescue is mentioned.

Nevertheless, it costs nothing to try, and this is an interesting article.

http://chrisnorthlilies.org/gallery/mylnefield/mynelfieldintro.htm

"Most of the crosses resulted in hybrid flowering plants including pyrenaicum x monadelphum (082,083); pyr.x ponticum (084,085); pyr. x ciliatum (087,088); pyr x chalcedonicum (089,090); pyr. x pomponium (091,092,093,094). The hybrids were generally intermediate between the two species envolved and were multiplied vegetatively and grown in the field. Surprisingly they mostly did not seem to be very vigorous or persistent growers and were discarded. However, the cross with pomponium grew well and was considered to be worthy of releasing as a new variety as ‘Europa’ but this name had to be abandoned for it was already used in the Lily Register for another cultivar. Through the encouragement of Mrs. Dee Simmons it was agreed to call it ‘Christopher North’ or ‘Chris North’. To mollify my embarassement I have to state that my father’s name was Christopher, one of my grandsons living in the U.S.A. has this name and so also has one of my nephews.

One other clone was retained that came from the cross Lilium pyrenaicum x ciliatum and figures in (087,088). It is very similar to pyrenaicum and grows well in grass in my garden where it , surprisingly , sets seed fairly regularly."

Two more things you might be watching for in identity conformation Wallaby. (1)Notice the bulbuous form of the buds. (2)Not sure, but how common is it to have such glabrous leaves that are so small and narrow? Not very, I would say.

Eeeek! Look at the length of the flower bud/pod when open, all 3 pics on the genus lilium show the petals to recurve to the top,

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/pyrenaicum.htm

On mine it is very long! (Woops! I was loking at the pod behind! )

The leaves were one thing which I thought didn't quite fit in the first place, so what I have is not L pyrenaicum!

(but the leaves are a little different!)

This message was edited May 25, 2007 10:20 PM

Going back to the leaves, on the pics I see they all look to be more vertical and slightly wider. Leaves on mine are more horizontal with drooping ends, quite glabrous.

http://www.floralimages.co.uk/pliliupyren.htm

http://www.hlasek.com/lilium_pyrenaicum_10296.html

http://erick.dronnet.free.fr/belles_fleurs_de_france/lilium_pyrenaicum1.htm

The leaves are not a match!

I don't see the difference in the buds you are referring to. I do see the leaf difference though. Keep in mind there are several varieties, Ed's book list at least 6. My vote is still for
L pyrenaicum var.?

Checkout the images on the North site starting at 80.

This message was edited May 25, 2007 6:17 PM

I didn't find a pic of pyrenaicum buds to compare.

I looked at those pics, and the x monadelphum leaves are fairly broad although a little more horizontal, the flowers face outwards.

Same with x ponticum, although the flowers hang down.

x ciliatum doesn't show the leaves, the flowers look to have no green and the spotting is reddish, but the pics are not that good, I think they are old. Other than x monadelphum which has a little green none of them look to have green in the flowers.

But I do agree it is most likely a var. of L. pyrenaicum. I need to check out the leaves of L ciliatum, that is the one I thought it might be in the first place.

Whether the tepals recurve over the top of the flower base or not, is not necessarily an identifying trait, IMO. But could be an ID trait in races within a species. Also could be weather related.

The leaves curving is probably not an ID trait either. Everything is so hard with first season plants that don't necessarily show their true form. I look at the angle of leaf to stem, and consider that a more true characteristic. And also the way the ends of the leaves taper. My money says that next year, the leaves will angle the same from the stem, but unlike this season, they will continue with that aspect right to the tips, as most Asians do. The overall proportional shape of the leaf, does concern me however. But that might be just me again.

I notice monadelphum has a somewhat bulbous flower bud. And this pyrenaicum bud is bulbous: http://www.stauder.net/bildearkiv/Lilium%20pyrenaicum%20SL.jpg
This too: http://www.ipe.csic.es/floragon/fotos/LiliumPyrenaicum_3.jpg

Just thought I'd add to the confusion here.

Ok Andy repeat after me, DO NOT GO SEARCHING FOR LILY SHOOTS THIS EARLY IN THE SEASON!

Poor Dauricum :*(

Tsk, tsk, tsk......... we won't do that again, now will we?

Looking back at the pic from the seller the leaves are horizontal without drooping tips, that is possibly due to lack of establishment. If I use my imagination the leaves on that pic are also a little larger, but like you Lefty I am having trouble with the overall proportional shape. That is a well as the very upright angle of the leaves I am seeing in all other pics.

I re-read the description of leaves on The Genus Lilium, and it does state there 'horizontal'!

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/subsection3b.htm

You know Lefty, L monadelphum might just have played a part in this one. On careful inspection the spots on mine seem to go a little further up the petals than pyrenaicum (which of course might be normal but I'm not seeing it on other pics). Looking at pics of some monadelphum the spots do go up the outer edges of the petals further. Rareplants does have an inactive list but I come across that with a google, not sure if it will work. They state L monadelphum has hairy leaves but they are narrow, how narrow I'm not sure.

http://rareplants.co.uk/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=156&numRecordPosition=31&ph=&strKeywords=&&strSearchCriteria=

The other thing which made me gasp is the size of the bulb of L monadelphum, it is 10cm+ which this is! The shape is ovoid-globose, L pyrenaicum is globose. The flowering time is the same, and crossing with L. pyrenaicum are reported, as the Chris North site also mentioned. Note the section at the bottom on Hybrids.

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/monadelphum.htm

One other thing which interested me is the very stout stems, with such fine and delicate leaves. A write up on L monadelphum on the next link mentions stout stems, and the various forms which vary in spotting.

http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Lily#Lilium_Monadelphum

Two illustrations of L. monadelphum from rare books (note the bulb and stem on 2nd link)

http://www.illustratedgarden.org/mobot/rarebooks/page.asp?relation=QK495F38E58187780&identifier=0102

http://www.illustratedgarden.org/mobot/rarebooks/page.asp?relation=QK495F38E58187780&identifier=0100

The link to the list where they came from has illustrations of many species which may prove useful

http://www.illustratedgarden.org/mobot/rarebooks/taxa.asp?relation=QK495F38E58187780

Look at the flowers on this L monadelphum

http://www.retoric.com/liljor/l_monadelphum.html

At this point I am voting for a L. pyrenaicum x L. monadelphum.

Tsch tsch Andrew, I had a scrape (lightly) for my in ground pyrenaicum. I came across new roots near the surface of another plant nearby so didn't go any further! Now if that had grown I would have had something to compare!

I took a few more pics tonight and just downloaded them. One pic had a well focused flower but nothing else so I cropped it close. While looking at it I noticed what seemed to be a fused stamen/filament to the centre style. Another looked suspect, so I started to look at all the pics more closely.

Imagine my surprise when I saw that the whole stem of flowers on the right side stem have no pistils! Not a thing, I had to get my torch and go have a look with my own eyes. No ovary, I don't think there was anything there other than a gaping hole to the top.

http://www.esu.edu/~milewski/intro_biol_two/lab_3_seed_plts/Lily_pistil.html

I had noticed today that the flowers on that stem looked a little more 'squat', not as deep from top to bottom, more pancaked. I thought it must be my imagination or a stage of development.

I checked the ones I thought may be fused but they were only laid close as the pistil curved (the full length ones), and the whole thing isn't huge so they easily came into contact. I then decided to try placing pollen from the pistil-less flowers on the stigmas of the other flowers. There are 4 pistilled flowers fully open, the other side was slightly later opening but all seemed to open more rapidly, all 5 of them.

My thinking is that they might be male, the others female, the females opening at a more staggered rate to ensure pollination. Two of the pistils were around full length with the anthers, another I had trouble getting to as it was much shorter, falling well short of the anthers, the other fell at the top edge of the anthers. This is strange!

Pic shows the pistil lengths.

The full head of pistil-less flowers.

Compare the depth of the flowers on the right (pistil-less) to the depth of the flowers on the left.

Another observation, the leaves at the top hang down a little, but the leaves at the bottom are more horizontal with the end tipping upwards slightly. Not sure if that is because they are older.

Gosh those are beautiful.

About the up turned and downcurved leaves: Although some lilies may naturally have a bit more up turn on the lower leaves then the upper, I doubt it is significant. More likely would be the degree of turgidity in the developing leaves when they are very susceptible to withering, that made the upper leaves "droopy". I think we have all seen on some plant or another that at the critical stage of leaf growth, if ample water is not available, the leaf will permanently look floppy or down curved, even after it stiffens.

Interesting about the half girl-half boy lily. While it is common in gymnosperms, it's rather unusual in angiosperms (flowering plants). I have seen similar mutation tendencies on certain trees or cultivars of fruit trees. And on herbaceous materials where the early flowers are male, and the later ones female or hermaphroditic (male and female), but yours belongs in the annals of weird.

Regarding pistil length, there are species (not lilies - that I know of) that have distinct types withing the taxon where the pistil is longer than the stamens (pin), and where the stamens are longer than the pistil (thrum). This is believed to be an adaptation to help insure cross pollenation. But in those species, a plant is one or the other, not both. Your lilies are indeed perplexing. I wonder what they will do next season.