Some interesting species bulbs

Oh Rick, how many times have I kicked myself for just that!!

I remember that year and half old moment so vividly, like it was yesterday. Now I guess you all know what a real plant geek I am. (And darn proud of it!)

Finally found picture of my yellow leichtlinii
inanda

Very nice Inanda. I do like it better than the orange maximowiczii.

I have succumbed to Lilium duchartrei, from a very good ebay seller here who has some marvellous and rare plants. He grows many of his own offerings.

I got the pic from his listing, bertramsblooms, it may be his own pic too. Love those spots.

That species' diversity is incredible. If mine is indeed a nepalense, if it survives my winter, and if it blooms, it's not going to look at all like that one, according to Chen Yi.

How would you describe Chen Yi bulbs? Tiny or medium?

Lefty you lost me there, mine is L duchartrei, but I guess you were using the comparison of diverse flowers?

My L nepalense I think is var. robustum, as described on the Genus Lilium site, the scent is very pleasant where the species is unpleasant,

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/nepalense.htm

L duchartrei is surprising with all the dark spots on his pic, it must be diverse too, if it has those spots I will be happy.

The pics on the Genus Lilium site do have heavy spotting too

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/duchartrei.htm

Not you, Wallaby, it's me. I goofed up. Just disregard that bit of nonsense.

Chen Yi bulbs are variable. Of course, species bulbs are always smaller than hybrids to begin with. Most, I'd say were nickel to quarter size, some the size of a $1 piece. Even quarter size bulbs can bloom. All were well worth the cheap price, especially considering: Where else are you going to attain such things? But if you have to have species identified, that's a downfall. ID's can be incorrect, and many are simply labeled "species #X". One of these days I'll scan the pics of the blooms this first year and show everyone.

I received my L. duchartrei today, nic and fresh.

Notice again the colour of the bulb, white with purple flush and spotting! The label is 4".

Side view

Wallaby, it looks good!

Good size for a species too!

AND he had another for bidding, starting at £0.99 + £2 p&p. It was stood at £2.75 with 2 bidders, so I went in tonight with 3 seconds to spare and got it for £3.30! The other was 'buy it now' at £7.95 + 2, he didn't have the bid one then and didn't list many so I took one, rvrogers here has them for over £20. How could I let anyone else snap it up so cheaply?

What an exciting growing season '07 has in store for you! Nice, healthy bulb there. Can't wait to see the bloom pics.

L. duchartrei is a beauty too. You guys have me species crazy, that and looking everywhere for the North lilies!

You should see the amount of lily seeds I have sown and have to sow!

Plus all the others, I put 8 lots in water yesterday, another 8 today, mostly Chilean bulbs, some at 15C, most at 5C, its below that outside so the garage should provide the right temps. Snowing a little now.

I have 2 yellow Henryii seeds germinated from sowing in December (I think) and 1 pardalinum, getting exciting!

magnolia, L. duchartrei is heavily scented too!

Neal I thought 2 might be nice to have, they may have different flowers, who can resist??

I emailed vanmeuwen too today, had a brief reply, the Z Red Desire I intend on getting at the lesser price as they are selling it now, and they didn't provide it but I have paid! They also have, wait for it, OK I will show you better!

Just look at the price of the collection of Zantedeschia (listed as Arum) Auckland, Vermeer and Black Eyed Beauty compared to the separate prices. I really fell for Auckland, there's a pic on cnb, it has large spotty leaves and larger flowers with a black throat, such a gorgeous combination and so unusual for a large one.

http://www.vanmeuwen.com/times/catalogue/a

And hopefully the two duchartrei bulbs will not be identical clones, so you could pollinate for true species duchartrei seed.

That's what I am hoping Lefty, the seller does have a lot of interesting bulbs and it seems he does grow much of his own, so they may be from the same batch but it was worth buying at that price. I wasn't going to let someone else have the benefit of a cheap bulb when I had paid full price!

I just looked at the description of the bulb on the Genus Lilium, it's stoloniform and makes bulblets. The stem can run sideways at the beginning, it sounds a lot like L. nepalense.

Can anyone explain the difference between an 'umbel' and a 'raceme'? L. duchartrei bears flowers in an umbel, L. langkongense in a raceme. I could look it up I guess, but I'm think an umbel is all around the head from one point, a raceme is from one side?

Got the umbel right

http://www.answers.com/topic/umbel

raceme could be right, but with a lily I imagine it would be all around but along the stem

http://www.answers.com/raceme

Yes, you've got raceme right; the flowers can be all the way around. The main difference between a raceme and a spike is the raceme has stalks connecting the blooms to the stem (one side or all around), and a spike does not (like glads-1 sided or liatris- all around).

I like the idea of all the flowers coming from one point, L duchartrei is going to be very interesting.

They have from 1 to 12 flowers, I'm trying to imagine 12 flowers coming from one point!

Thanks for the explanation Neal

I can imagine, and it will be wonderful! Won't have to imagine for long :)

I put my first martagons in the ground this Fall. I hope that they don't sulk too badly, and that I won't have to wait years to see blooms.

Does anybody know what "short lived" means when referring to L. cernuum or L. Pumilum?


Thank you,
Andrew

This say L pumilum naturalises readily (by seed?), but short lived generally means they will grow for a short time and then die, often 2 or 3 years, whether this is the same for this lily I don't know. By growing new offsets and seeding it will ensure it's survival.

http://www.naturehills.com/new/product/fallbulbsdetails.aspx?prodid=3072

Here it says they will often die after setting a lot of seed

http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Lilium+pumilum

L cernuum says short lived in cultivation, perhaps they need to live in conditions very suited to their needs.

http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Lilium+cernuum

Pumilum lasted 3 years for me then was gone...

Well that certainly answered that one!

They do make lots of seed, especially if you hand pollinate to ensure the job gets done.

Pumilum lasted 6 years for me. I never let it go to seed though.

I am the proud owner of some lily species :*) Nothing fancy since I am a zone 5a person. All this nice spring weather got me going planting bulbs and tilling but now the cold front hit, and the species sit in my fridge. I think they will be ok in there, not sure about L.Pumilum that I got from TheLilyPad, which has about 5inches of growth, arghhh. Anyway, I am looking for some pointers on growing species aside from the good drainage thing. Are they really that different from hybrids in their dirt requirements? My soil is a moderately heavy topsoil about 9" deep and then clay. I put a couple bags of 1 year old leaves on the bed and tilled them in, but thats it so far. Since my soil seems heavy I have been digging down 12" x 4-5" wide and filling the hole with potting soil+perlite+vermiculite mix and then topping off with some top soil, for the hybrids. Would this work for the species?
Lilium species list:

L. Concolor
L. Dauricum
L. Duchartrei
L. Lankongense
L. Leucanthum
L. Maculatum (Wilsoni)
L. Pumilum

Thank you,
Andrew

Well done intercessor! Are we going to have fun this year with our species pics??? Hoping they all flower!

Lefty might be best to advise on growing them in colder zones, you might want to check their natural habitats out on this site too.

http://www.deflorum.com/lilium/species.html

I was suprised when I got Wilsoni, huge!

Congratulations and welcome to the Lilium species world!

Very glad you explained in detail how you have been planting so far, Andrew. I doubt there will be any problems with the hybrids, since they are so vigorous, but in general, that's a no-no, what you're describing.

Anytime you fill a hole with a lighter soil mix than the surrounding soil, you are producing what is called the "bathtub effect". When hand watering, or heavy natural rainfall, water seeps easily through the more free draining introduced soil, and gets to the bottom where the natural soil is less free draining. The water begins to back up and flood the bathtub you have created with the lighter soil. It probably won't be too much of a problem with your hybrids, since your topsoil hopefully drains ok, but some species can be very picky, and species are almost always less vigorous.

If you have about 9" of topsoil as a bed, and you are digging a 12" deep hole for each bulb, does that really mean you are digging into the clay subsoil? Ouch! Then, even if your topsoil is draining enough to allow enough water drainage out the sides of your little bathtubs, you will have a pool of backfill water in the clay subsoil that will always be there, that may keep the soil too wet.

Duchartrei will be the most difficult on your list. The BIG, BIG, BIG problem in our climate is that it abhores winter wet. While I have to hope it can survive the cold temperature here, mine is planted on a mound with a plastic sheet over it during the winter to keep it dry. I have read that some people dig the bulb each fall and store it in the frig, rather than risk winter rot. Definitely, this one you will want to dig up and replant in a more amenable space.

Pumilum and leucanthum are rather easy. Good drainage, no bathtub, and you should be fine. Actually, I think you can get away with simply removing the top part of the improved soil mix, down to within an inch of the bulb or so, and replace it with the surrounding soil. This will prevent the flood of water seepage that comes with the excessively free draining introduce media. Of course, it is only "excessive" in this case.

Lankongense like more humussy soil and at least slightly acidic.

Maculatum, dauricum and concolor I only have as seedlings so far, so I can't talk from experience. But I will say this about species in general: while fertilizing will make them grow faster and larger, that's not necessarily a good thing. Hold back on the feeding, compared to hybrid lilies.

I was kind of wondering about digging into the clay thing and thought the water might run in.
What is a person to do if the soil is heavy? If I amend, the soil around the bulb will always be easier draining for water. TLG suggested I plant Leucanthum 10" deep to keep it from popping up in a fake warm spring, such as we just had. All the other hybrid bulbs are above the clay layer.

Thanks,
Andrew

If I amend, the soil around the bulb will always be easier draining for water.

True, but where is the extra water going to go to once it drains to the "non-draining clay soil? That's what I meant by the "bathtub effect".

. TLG suggested I plant Leucanthum 10" deep to keep it from popping up in a fake warm spring, such as we just had.

Good advice if you have deep well draining soil. But again, you need to have a continuous drain path.

Except for my seedlings and bulblets in a nursery bed, my bulbs are planted deep with a shovel, rather than a trowel, and for exactly the reason you cite. It will be quite a while before any of my lilies show up. My Scilla numidica comes up well before even my martagons in the same bed. No sign of them yet.

What is a person to do if the soil is heavy?

The common (and good) advice is to build a raised (or partially raised) bed of well draining soil.

Soil physics is really rather cool stuff, although, I haven't been able to convince anyone else of that. (Another area where I deviate from the realm of normalcy.) Observe the work of capillary action downward. If anyone happened to see the recent TV article on the milk drinking deities of India on public TV, it is partly the same "phenomenon" at work.

I started into a would be discertation on the subject, how finer soils have a stronger capillary force than gravelly soils, but decided to save you all from the "boring" verbage. Without going into mind-numbing detail, the important thing is:
layered soils bad, soils in gradation good. And that layering can can be in any direction (horizontal, vertical, etc.). Adding gypsum can't hurt, but the clay soil softening action that is often claimed is usually not achievable with our soils in the east half of the country.

So Andrew, if you don't want to go the raised bed route, make sure there is not a strong deliniation between the good soil and clay subsoil. Make a transition zone, and that will help with drainage. Continually mixing in composty materials is always a good thing. Adding permanent amendments, like sand will help too. Although you may not actually see a difference, it is there. I poo-poo the warning about turning your clay into cement if you add sand. That will only happen if you destroy the soil structure by working with the clay when it is too wet. "Cement" would happen with or without the addition of sand. Always be gentle when working with clay soils. I prefer to use a digging fork, rather than a shovel, as it is more accomodating and less destructive to clay soil structure.

Hmmm, Well I am not in the mood to put little hills all over my yard. So if I were to dig a hole and fill it with potting soil but kept the bulb above the brown clay soil the hole would still stay wet or more wet than the topsoil layer? Wouldn't the water drain to the bottom and then seep into the topsoil layer around it? I can see if the bulb was near the bottom that it would sit in water.

I don't find edaphology boring :*)

This message was edited Apr 5, 2007 9:13 PM

I think you would be better off to incorporate compost into the clay rather than trying to replace a patch. That helps prevent that bathtub effect.

I have to deal with heavy clay problems and seasonal flooding. I can't raise this bed because then the excess flood water would be diverted to the neighbor's property. I prefer to remain on friendly terms with my neighbor:) So this is how I deal with it.

About every four years I dig out everything from this bed except the more permanent plantings such as the siberian irises. Then I till in amendments, usually some compost and some good quality garden soil mix from a nursery. A few years back I added about a yard of sandy loam and that also helped. In the spring I top dress with my homemade compost but I never have enough to go around:( In the meantime I don't amend the planting holes for new lilies. Surprisingly (considering the winter flooding) most of my lilies have done well. Except for auratum. It didn't last a picosecond.

Pard has the right idea. You may not need to redo the plot periodically either. I don't think Wisconsin receives the same amount of rainfall that she does. I know I don't in Minnesota.

Think of an imaginary line across an imaginary flat garden. To the left is fast draining soil, to the right is slow draing soil. You are out with the hose watering the garden. To the left, water is being drunk up (actually down) as fast as the water is applied. To the right it isn't, and begins to pool at the surface. The water then starts to drain across that imaginary line into the more free draining soil. In actuality, the fast draining soil receives more water than the slow draining soil.

Now think of equal amounts (by volume) of regular soil, and gravel - a slower and a faster draining medium. Pour equal amounts of water through each and catch the water that drains through. More water drains through the fast draining medium than the slower draining medium.

Now apply these concepts to your pockets of fast draining soil that are surrounded by slow draining soil. You have more water seeping into the pockets, draining faster to the bottom of the pockets, and less water being held in the soil of the pockets (meaning even more water drains to the bottom of the pockets). Water backfills the hole.

It's like you have a pot with pinholes, placed under a running water faucet. The water drains freely (through the air) but encounters slow draining soil (the pot with pinholes). A bit exagerated, I know, but analagous.

Will it eventually seep into the surrounding topsoil? Of course, but how fast "eventually" is, is the key. It could be fast enough, or not.

Leftwood, your post abt soils reminded me of this thread. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/527353/#top Water movement is interesting stuff and altho this isn't specifically abt lilies, it's good reading.

I'm learning a lot from all you experienced lily growers. Those species are lovely, I especially like the xanthellum. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, all!

If L. xanthellum flowers this year I will be posting pics so keep a watch out!

I bought another lily off ebay, no name given but a pic of the plants the bulb came from, which are supposed to increase well. They added a pic of the bulb part buried in a pot, now I see they are selling another one with the same pic of the bulb! Hmm, it may be similar but not exactly the same! As they added the pic towards the end of the auction I guess I may get the one shown.

I lifted the pic off the auction page, the flowers were just said to be yellow spotted turkscap, heavily scented and blooms in early summer. It looked to me like the pic of L ciliatum which rareplants were selling for £17.50, but now don't have. The pic of L ciliatum on the deflorum site looks a little different.

I now wonder if it could be L pyrenaicum which I have got, but what I could see of the bulb didn't look anything like mine.

http://www.deflorum.com/species/pyrenaicum.html

http://www.deflorum.com/species/ciliatum.html

The flowering time of early summer fits L pyrenaicum, but that can differ, the location of the seller was Ireland. Besides that, deflorum states L ciliatum is not fragrant.

The foliage on L pyrenaicum in this pic doesn't look the same, more upright

http://www.bulbsociety.org/GALLERY_OF_THE_WORLDS_BULBS/GRAPHICS/Lilium/Lilium_pyrenaicum/Lilium_pyrenaicum.html

Not sure if the foliage looks like L ciliatum either

http://www.bulbsociety.org/GALLERY_OF_THE_WORLDS_BULBS/GRAPHICS/Lilium/Lilium_ciliatum/Lilium_ciliatum.html

I'm leaning towards L pyrenaicum (even if the bulb looked totally different!)

http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/210606/log.html


Does anyone recognise it?