Kathy, home run was bred by Tom Carruth the same guy that bred all the knockout series roses. It is very disease resistant and powdery mildew resistant just like the Knockout series. It is a small bush around 30" tall and everblooming. A good choice for those who like single petal roses. An easy rose. Not much fragrance.
This years order from Silver Star Vinery
I've bought Wal Mart clematises and had them bloom inside while waiting to bring them out to harden off in springtime and almost identical experiences with the tiny clematis (looks tiny but they're two years old) from Dutch Gardens. I'll attach a photo of one that bloomed before I could even plant it in the garden.
I'm sure both the clematises with big roots and those that appear young will do fine if given the right planting and the right locations. I've had success both ways but I do prefer the smaller ones - more bang for the buck.
Here's the photo of Crystal Fountain two months after I received it from Dutch Gardens, and in flower (you can see the bricks of the terrace) as it waited to get a permanent home.
I agree Pirl, if any plant is planted correctly and in the right location it should do fine. I do however believe any plant with a larger root system clearly will grow and produce better than one with a small root system - that's common sense in any plant. Of course that would differ in plants that must be divided routinely like daylilies, iris, etc.
I want to enjoy my plants now - I'm the gardener who likes the power of the plant now, not 2 years from now. Of course that is MY gardening style. Some people like tiny plants they can baby and watch mature over time and become that power plant. I have a coworker who loves to get tree seedlings and pot them up and wait until they are 'trees' but I would rather buy the tree for $15 or $20 and get something from it now.
Your clematis is lovely. So I guess each person has to decide if a $4 plant is worth the wait. For me, getting those monsters I've posted above in 1 or 2 years is well worth the $15 or $18. In my garden the tiny plants would get lost. That's why I stopped buying from Bluestone. Their perennials were not worth the wait. They arrive in tiny pots and would normally take 2 plants to fit in a regular size coffee cup. Not worth it to me.
Dan,
I need to check out that rose. Sounds like it has great potential for my yard. I hope my Green Ice makes it this snowy winter. I'm so glad you recommend it.
We all have our preferences and when it comes to trees or shrubs I am also impatient and want the largest size I can buy. With some other plants it just isn't critical to me.
We grow tomatoes from seed but the tiny plug co-op plants, like the heuchera and tiarella, take so many years to be a presence in the garden that I no longer buy them. Back in 2005 or 2006 I bought an established three year old climbing hydrangea that is so slow to grow I'm sure I'll be dead before it looks like anything.
It's so nice that we can all pick and choose what we want to grow and what sizes we want.
You're right Pirl. It is nice we all can choose everything for ourselves. New members should learn that right from the start - it's whatever they find best for themselves. I don't have the patience to grow tomatoes from seed, for example, but plant zinnia from seed and not 4 packs. New members or new to this thread should know they should go with their budget and the look they are after.
As a new gardener many years ago I would have gotten the cheap plant and did try several clematis from Walmart for under $5. Now If I had $20 to spend I would buy one very nice rose, clematis, or tree rather and 4 small ones at $5. I also agree that I want to live long enough to see these things kick butt in the garden. I like the show stopper so I get something that will be amazing the first and 2nd year.
Glad you commented as we have very different ideas and that is how true gardeners are.
Nicely expressed!
Yep, we also need to remember the difference in climates. In my warmer climate, I quickly got great blooms and plenty of growth from the small clematis, as did JeanneTX and Sharkey. There was no need to get the bigger plant. I did get quite a few gallons when I started out... both from SSV and Joy Creek... and within a month, it was impossible to pinpoint which plants came from where without looking at the homemade tags. Additionally, our planting spots can dictate what size plant is best. I placed a lot of my clematis by other plants for support, with established roses and other bushes in raised beds. There was no way I could prepare a gallon-size hole in those spaces without greatly disturbing the other plant, but a 4" or 5-1/2" clematis could be placed there without jeopardizing the existing plants. To me, that was much more important. The same thing can hold true when trying to plant a shade-loving cultivar underneath an established tree... you may not be able to find enough space between the tree roots for a gallon-size hole.
For containers, you need to start with a 18" x 18" container for your clems, but there is no need to dig a 18" x 18" hole in a prepared bed. The minimum size for a container is so that the plant has adequate nourishment and space for sustained growth. Within a prepared bed, the roots of your clematis will find their way between the roots of existing plants just fine. It's more important to keep whatever root ball you put in the ground undamaged, regardless of what size you have at the start. I just find I have a lot more planting options with the smaller plants.
That said, I don't choose to purchase most plants at the big box stores simply because I have found they are generally not as healthy. They sit a long time at a distribution center with poor watering practices and frequently have disease issues on the stem. I would rather pay more at a local nursery or pay the shipping charge to mail order and get a plant that is disease-free from the start. The exceptions to this for me are some of the landscape roses and some of the azaleas, but only because those plants always seem to be healthy at our local big box stores. I'm guessing their distribution point is closer to us than for most other plants... and if that's the case, then the choice of what plants are good to buy and not good to buy at the big box stores could differ greatly for each of us in the forum.
I started thinking about this issue of clematis sizes - 4 inch pots vs quart pots. I did some research on this and basically what I've found is the 4 inch liner would be fine. That is for the nursery or business who will care for the plants in the best of conditions, plant food, temperatures, sprays, etc. until it's matured. Buying a 4 inch clematis like these box store or some small home businesses and selling them to people who put them into the ground and water, throw plant food on them and hope for the best is one of several reasons small plants do not survive. Probably why my walmart clematis didn't live. The small root system.
As with any plant the older the plant the bigger the root system making for a larger plant in the time span. I think (not from my personal experience) that if you planted a 4 in plant in a batch of older plants as noted in the post above, that 4 in plant is going to get lost in the growth of the mature plants it's stuck between.
Johnson County K-State Research and Extension published this article - of which I just gathered a small portion of:
Buying Clematis
The best planting time for clematis is in early
spring or fall, during cool weather. When buying
plants, select the largest plants possible. Local
suppliers have increased the quality and
selection of the varieties they offer. Many now
offer the more desirable 3 and 4-year-old plants
that ensure healthy, vigorous stock. Look for
strong, undamaged stems.-----------------
Note my picture above of Lady Betty & Huldine. That is a 2 year old combo. That picture was taken after it had been in the ground for 2 summers with that picture BEING the 2nd summer. Can someone show me your pictures of a 2 year old clematis that was purchased as a 4 in/liner size plant? I would love to see if the end results are the same. Because if that is true I will start buying 4 in pots.
Also above in my photo is Semu - it's first summer, planted last spring. See the coneflower beside it - we know how tall that gets and the amount of growth is amazing. Same with Negritianka on the 8 or 9 ft trellis - it's 2nd summer.
Again, back to the fact of your budget and what the outcome you are desiring is would play a role. Just as the amount of time you have to baby small plants - which perennials, etc are not the same as buying garden plants which are babies and meant to be planted that way directly in the garden after frost.
Here is info from another site: http://www.rainyside.com/archives/clematis_care.html
Many gardeners starting out with clematis become discouraged with it. The first few years, it is slow in top growth, while it establishes its root system. In its first year after it is planted, it may not produce flowers at all. By the second year, there will be more growth and perhaps a few flowers. The third year rewards your patience with substantial growth and vast amounts of blossoms.
I recommend buying clematis growing in a gallon container. Expect to pay ten to twenty dollars or more. It is worth the investment for the many years it will add beauty to your garden. A start in a four-inch pot will be harder to establish, even though it is less expensive to buy. If you buy small starts in the spring, it is best to transplant to a larger pot with good potting soil, letting it continue to establish a good root system. Keep the pot shaded and do not let the soil dry out. A good feeding once a month with fertilizer will give it a good start. Plant out in the garden when fall rains return, and mulch well. It will continue over winter to develop its root system. Buying clematis in one-gallon containers in spring or autumn, you will have a better chance of success..
This message was edited Feb 13, 2010 9:44 PM
Once again niclely expressed!
I'm trying to do an investigation here, not tick anyone off. I personally want the best bang for the buck. If I can get the same plant out of a liner someone needs show us- newbies and seasoned gardeners will benefit. I would love to save money but proof is in the puddin'.
Trellis - I need to build more because I'm learning that the 9 footers that were purchased or made for many clematis have lost their ability to hold these huge systems. I purchased some from Lowes for $40 or so and they Negritianka will need a far larger trellis this year. I laugh when I see the tiny trellis' I purchased when I started wtih clematis. I actually have 4 ft frames - oh what a waste of money. I've found the post and chicken wire is the cheapest and servers the best but I need variety.
Any ideas Diamond? I know you have lots of roses as well as clematis - what do you use? Oh, and I need to check out the small clematis you were talking about in the beginning of your new thread.
Lori,
what have you purchased or made for your clematis?
Carolyn,
what about you? You have a lovely photo above - I forgot to mention that. Do you have more pictures to share?
I'm intersted in what perspective the new members or new clematis growers vision as the right size trellis. I hope they plan better than I did.
This message was edited Feb 13, 2010 10:00 PM
Sorry but most of my photos of two year old 4" plants are close ups of the flowers and not the plant by itself.
We can buy huge plants locally but the prices are $28.to $70.00 per plant.
Maybe this doesn't qualify for your photo but I planted it as a very tiny plant in the fall of 2007 and it was in beautiful bloom by May of 2009: clematis Omoshiro.
I have found that anything 6 ft or over needs a post with some kind of chicken wire or netting around it. A cross bar (Xon top if they are really tall and chicken wire or other types of wire can be strung over the cross bar.
I have about a half dozen wimpy little (under 6 ft) trellaces I bought when I first started and they are very good for the shorter clematis. Some of the new Evisoo are only 3 to 4 ft. The metal needs to be anchored so they don't lean. You can sink them in concrete also (less concrete of course).
Hey Kathy here's an idea, those trellis's we made out of copper last year, If they are two short, just add a coupling and make the legs longer..easy peazy. I'm gonna do that to one of mine. I'll let you know how it came out. But it should work fine!
I have five short clematis coming this year, I'm going to try one in a hanging basket and see how it works. It'll have to be a big one! They need some room. Bet it looks great!! A friend of mine is getting a couple of the Cherokee or Ooh La La 's for me. I really wanted that one. I have clematis coming from three different vendors this year. My biggest order is silver star. This is going to be a vine year for me.
I wish I had more pictures to share:(
This message was edited Feb 13, 2010 10:46 PM
Kathy
I do agree that a larger rootball will give you what you want sooner. However, I also think it depends on what one wants at a given time. I have bought clems from a variety of sources. I have also bought the 4" liner pots. I have found that different vendors tend to carry different clem varieties and what strikes my fancy at the time is where my business will go. I have to be honest, I have even broken down and ordered Crimson Star from Springhill - but I really wanted it and I have been babying it.
I have found the 4" liner pots are probably a year or two behind the plants that are typically sold as '1 year old plants'. But with a bit of babying, they do ok.
This is Clematis Hakuri that is growing with Veronica Giles von Hees. I bought Clematis Hakuri from Brushwood.
This is Montana Mayleen. An experiment I wanted to try as typically Montanas do not grow in my zone...
This one is Alabast...
Gillian Blades...
H F Young
My boss bought one of the wooden lattas and took it apart and made
trellases out if it. I also have the small 4-5 ft trellases. Mine are next to my 6 ft fence if I can get them to out grow the small ones then I will be happy to getting bigger ones.
I use cow panel from tractor supply 20' x 4' for $20.00 I attached. It to the fence and it works very well
for my morning glorys it is very sterdy. I love flowers but just sign of good healthy growth pleases me in to contentment. Reading all of the different methods of growing these tells me there is success with both. I wll not give up on them if these fail. I also am trying this year hops, blue sky vine and cup and sauser.
Lori
Violet Charm with Miss Bateman
I have no idea what this one is... it was supposed to be Similkivi - this was one of those 4" liners. I'd love some input if somebody knows what it is.. I do know it is a group 2 pruning group.
viticella - another from Dan at Brushwood
Durandii
Hendryetta
Madame Julia Correvon
Fascination..
Proteus with unknown peony..
Crimson Star...
that is all for now...
Carolyn, your Silmakivi is Silmakivi... It looks like it should. That cultivar is one that shows a wide variance in colors depending on season and soil nutrients. Check out Victorgardener's images and the ones over at COTW and you'll see what I mean. Here's one link to Victor's, though, and it looks like yours.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/248005/
On the age of the densely-rooted 4" plants, I think you will find by calling Donahue's and Brushwood... those are already 2 years old in the 4" size. It takes a long time to get a clematis started and that is why they are so expensive compared to other 4" plants. At that point, they are established and can grow at a faster rate... so many retailers purchase the 4" and grow them out a while longer to fill a gallon.
I guess since we are on the same subject of small vs large. Here's my additional 2 cents. Smaller 4" clematis are sold everywhere, they are a dime a dozen and at every box store out there, the varieties are becoming more and more available. But where does a person buy a larger clematis?? If I and a few others didn't let people know that there is a place that can cater to thier needs and provided a larger plant. They would be stuck having to buy a smaller plant. If you have the money and want to spend a little more, the bigger plants are available. So we can now put this to rest. Silver Star Vinery sells larger plants if you want them.
Carolyn, thank you for providing some beautiful pictures. I bet your gardens are really nice!!
Maybe Evy could share some pictures of her clematis's !! Would love to see them.
Evey - I didn't think Similkivi was supposed to have all that pink in it. Actually, he reminds me of a blue Nelly Moser. Thanks for the info!
Diamond - I agree to a certain point on what you are saying. However, it does seem that some of these harder to find plants are sold in 4" pots as well. I bought Durandii, Similkivi and Crimson Star all in 4" pots. Brushwoods pots are little bigger, but I do not think they are gallon sized - Hakuri , the purple viticella and the Montana all came from Brushwood. I also bought some of my plants from a friend who has a local nursery and her plants are sold in the gallon pots - Gillian Blades and John Paul came from her....
I do think there is a lot to what Kathy is saying as well about buying the larger plants - we can see the proof in her pictures. I will tell you, although I have not bought from Debbie, my favorite is Joy Creek.
Diamond - I would love to see more of your picutres....
And I would love to show you! However, I concentrated on my rose pictures more than my clematis's. I wish I had more to share.:( They did look very nice last year.
A dime a dozen? Tell me where!
Carolyn's clematis are lovely!
Liberation was my best buy ever - a tiny pot for $2.99 and well worth the wait.
I agree with Carolyn, Diamond. Let's see a lot of your fabulous photos. You must have many of them.
This message was edited Aug 23, 2010 11:37 AM
Sorry, we cross posted as I was busy searching for photos of Liberation. Hope we'll see many of your fabulous beauties this year, Diamond.
Arlene
as always, the photos of your garden are just stunning. I love Liberation and particularly love the Omoshiro.
Diamond - cannot wait to see your pictures this year.
This is Perle D'Azure with Climbing Rose New Dawn. Perle was a 4" liner as well as the photo of I posted previously of Mme Julia..
I can honestly take the blame for Diamond's love for clematis. He was big into roses and after my clematis photos and posts he started with a few. I've seen his rose photo's at that forum.
I believe Diamond is like Blissful in a few ways.....they both found the love of clematis (within the last year for Bliss as I clearly recall her new found love) and Diamond I believe the year before. Both have knowledge of their reading, growing, and shared information from others. Making neither them nor myself an expert of which I never claim to have the answers like some do-simply my personal opinion - which really IS a dime a dozen. (Pirl, I think Diamond meant the 'dime a dozen' as a point - not literal, as I'm sure you realize that LOL). Like most posting here we share general comments, questions, issues, and ideas but some times having the professional attitude from a new grower is grrrrrr to most of us.
Carolyn - how did the Montana do? That's stunning and I would love to try one. How long have you been growing clematis? I believe my clematis love started about 4 years go. Do you have roses as well? Can you grow Crape Myrtle trees in your zone? I have several if they survive this darn snow. My zone borders 6/7. The Violet Charm is stunning - is that picture true to it's actual color? I know cameras do funny things but that is a must have - I'll check out some online sites for it.
Mstish - that is a great idea for the trellis.
Carolyn, we cross posted. How old is the liner in that photo? Like most of us we love taking pictures of the flowers and I've learned after the Lady Betty & Huldine above that we need shots from a distance too. It helps me see how I'm doing with them from year to year.
Diamond, I forgot to say that you are right - I'll put a few cooper fittings on the trellis and add "arms". My husband taught me how to soder and work with the copper so I was thrilled to see how many crazy and unique designs I could make from the cooper. In comparison to store trellis - they are still cheap even with the price of cooper. And yes, I want to see what your clematis do this year. But still want to see the roses. Is your Green Ice still good? The snow is about 30 inches here so I hope everything makes it. Seems like you lost one Green Ice during a cold winter.
Carolyn,
Look at clematis on the web
http://www.clematis.hull.ac.uk/new-clemdetail.cfm?dbkey=728
I don't think your Silmakivi looks like the one on this site. The Silmakivi seems to have rounded pedals and a lavendar tint and the eye lashes are yellowish where your photo shows them as pinkish. But I'm not the expert - check it out, opening both web browers at the same time and compare the pictures side-by-side. See what you think.
kathy
Rats! I was waiting for the site so I could order ten dozen!
I've always felt attitude was critical in life and here on DG. We can all (no exceptions) use help and photos are wonderful, ala Carolyn. Love that Perle but why wouldn't I since I am pirl? I just planted my first one of them (with two others) last fall.
Montana Mayleen is another new one here and planted in 2009 to grow on a tree. I hope mine turns out as well as Carolyn's.
I'm unsure what you mean by "having the professional attitude from a new grower is grrrrr to most of us". I've grown a lot of daylilies in my time but always enjoy advice from people whether they are new with daylilies or not. We'd all be in sad shape if we refused all help offered. We all have the option of ignoring posts we don't like, right? I did the hybridizing and my husband did the planting downstairs, under lights. If I didn't take the advice from someone brand new to daylilies and first germinate the seed in an open plastic bag with barely moist soil-less mix he'd have wasted far too much time and mix on seeds that didn't germinate. Who'd have guessed that a person brand new to daylilies would save us so much time?
This message was edited Aug 23, 2010 11:38 AM
This was taken May 2009 before bloom time - obviously, planted 2008
