How to transplant JM's from container to bed?

Hi Bonnie---glad to hear I'm not the only person who names my plants. I have a crape myrtle "Audrey", named after the plant in Little Shop of Horrors. Most of my CMs grow 3-6 inches a year, and she grows about 5 times that fast "Feed me Seymour!" Oops--getting off post, here.

Back to fleur's design----there are some fabulous posts in the Hypertufa and Concrete forum about ponds, pond edges, etc. Have you checked there for ideas? You might be able to free-form something using azreno's technique http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/641023/? I have just been knocked out by some of the cool stuff folks have shown in that forum!

Thanks, imapigeon. That's a great idea.

Fleurs - the one thing that I would suggest is that you grow something on that wall. Passion flowers would grow there and the white one is hardy in zone 7. Another possibility would be some Montana Clematis. You can string the main trunk along the top of the wall and then let it drape down. Or perhaps a climbing hydrangea? They can be grown horizontally. Very pretty I'd think. I'm stumped in zone 7 about much of anything else except needlepoint ivy. I'm zone handicapped but it would make an incredible difference if you softened that wall.

I agree with Doss----if you don't have enough room for a plant, maybe some sort of wall art?

Clematis do great in zone 7.

Laura

Doss, so glad you mentioned 'THE WALL'. I had considered ivy but it is so invasive and it will be difficult to get back there to trim often. There is wisteria growing on the fence railing above the brick wall now (not seen in the photo #2 at top of thread). The wisteria is planted at the corner base of the wall just outside the gate and is being trained to grow along the fence in both directions - over the bed being redesigned, and also over the long bed running at a right angle to it (toward the shop seen in the background of photo #2). There is a second wisteria planted in the center of the long bed and being trained to grow in both directions also. I did that to provide some shade to the azaleas and hostas below.

So....after all that.....there is still the issue of a big blank brick wall behind the tree and pond. I have several clematis (about 8) including a couple that grow up each of the wisteria vines, but not on the wall itself. The climbing hydrangea idea sounds interesting. The wall faces east and gets shaded in late afternoon. I'd love to have something evergreen with berries for birds. Pyracanthea, maybe? Or, since the wisteria will be primarily horizonal, maybe I should think more vertically. This gets complicated doesn't it?

This photo is of the long wall between the house and shop looking in the opposite direction from photo #2. The area being redesigned is hidden behind the wall off to the right inside the courtyard. The window is the dining room that looks out onto this bed. Both wisteria vines can be seen in this photo.

Debra

If you do pyracantha, see if you can find a variety without the 2-inch thorns! All the ones I've grown have been HORRIBLE to prune. Mine also got mealybugs really badly, but there are probably varieties that are more resistant. Sure would be pretty on that wall though.....and the berries would give you winter color and feed the birds.

Hello, I am popping in again this morning. I once had a pyracantah in Memphis, TN, whose berries the birds did not eat. Honest. Is anyone familiar with this variety?

Bonnie

If you want to do some shrub on the wall, I'd suggest sasanqua camellias. They are evergreen, are hardy in your zone, can take virtually any exposure and can be espalliered so that they won't take up much room. The foliage is very shiny green and wide so would be beautiful behind your tree. I have kept mine about 2' deep without pruning though. Some cultivars grow tall enough to meet your requirements.

I agree with doss. The nursery has a couple of sasanquas trained onto a trellis and it is quite stunning. There are also a couple of camelia japonicums trained as well.

I stopped by a nursery this afternoon and checked out a few possibilities. It appears the climbing hydrangea needs more shade than it would get on this wall. I did look at some camilias, but not in detail. I'll do more research on those - I like the idea. Also looked at some evergreen clematis - they looked a little too 'busy' and I'm afraid they would detract from the tree. Today was a glorious day and perfect for working in the garden but I had a rare opportunity to spend the afternoon with my daughter and that had priority. Rain is predicted tomorrow but, hopefully, a little work can be done before it starts.

Bonnie, I seem to recall that the berries are not attractive to birds - bitter maybe? So that rules out pyracanthea.

Debra

The robins used to love to get "tanked up" on pyracantha berries here....I don't know if the berries were fermented, or if they just ate so many they couldn't fly, but it was fun to watch. But that didn't outweigh (no pun intended) the problems I had with them, and had to take them out. I think the espalliered camellia sounds marvelous! If you find one that blooms when the maple is bare, it will be really dramatic on the wall---and you would have lots of colors to choose from.

I have espalliered camellias blooming in a courtyard against a brick wall now and they are beautiful. My plants are first year and are only about 40" tall. They will be trained higher trellises after the bloom is finished.

Here are a few photos taken on this overcast morning.


Bonnie

Notice the self photo of the photographer in the window.

And one more for good luck, good friends and good health...............

Bonnie, your camellias will be beautiful when they cover the wall. Are they pink or a coral color?

We have rain in the forecast, but I'm hoping to get out and do some work in the bed today. First, I must get off this computer!

Debra

Camellias will bloom in the winter. Sasanquas don't have the big double blooms that the japonicas have but they are much more sun tolerant. I agree that the evergreen clematis won't look as well as the camellias. I've never seen one that I really loved although they are grown pretty widely here.

Whew! Big work getting done today. It's sunny and almost 70 degrees. Looks like the rain may hold off until mid-week. I'm still transplanting plants out of the future pond area, but started the 'big dig' this morning. It's not big compared to most other ponds, but it's big when being done by hand. LOL! DH and DSS (step-son) pitched in and are helping with the digging. The deeper we get, the heavier and wetter the clay gets. It's very heavy to lift but can almost be 'molded' into the shape needed for the ledge, etc. I think it will make a good base for the pond.

I've really been thinking about that bare wall. I pruned the wisteria back hard, but when it starts growing there will be a lot of greenery along the railing above the bricks. A lot of area in front of the wall is being built up in the process of digging the pond. The end result will be less wall than it appears now. I'm thinking it may be best to wait until the the project is completed and then determine what to do on the wall. I still welcome ideas - and as I post photos further along into the project, we may go a totally different direction. I'm beginning to wonder about tall grasses that would be a nice vertical contrast to the horizonal growth of the maple and would give winter interest, too. So many choices....

Debra

Edited to clarify: I'm imagining a one or two stone water fall where the bird bath is in the upper photo with a clump of tall grass just off to one side of it.

This message was edited Mar 11, 2007 2:48 PM

Debra my camellias are more pink than coral. The pink is vivid leaning to hot.

This is in natural sunlight. The true color is about two shades darker.

Sorry, this is the natural sunlight. I had played with the colors on the other.

Very pretty, Bonnie. Look at those buds hiding in there!

Here is a little of what we did today.

Debra

You sure have been digging! Getting the trees out of the pots is going to be a chinch next to digging that pond.

LOL! See the feet in the photo? That's my step-son. He and DH really made a dent in the project today. When finished for the day, the deep section was approx 18" below the shelf seen in the photo. The majority of the digging has been done. Now there's a big pile of dirt (too much clay) in the corner that needs to be amended and shaped into the berm for the tree.

Good news! We have our 'muscle' scheduled to help transplant the tree in 2 weeks. That gives me time to have the bed prepared.

And.......had another thought for the brick wall. Maybe a wall mounted water spout? Water falling from about 3' above the pond would make a nice sound.

Debra

Debra:
Kudos to your guys for getting so much done today!!
I saw a really neat water feature a few years ago on HGTV that used different-sized lengths of copper pipe put horizontally on a wall, and it all eventually trickled down into a basin at the bottom. Something like that could be interesting in your spot.
Janet

I'm so excited for you, bet your whole family will be very proud of the new water feature!

Laura

Thanks Janet and Laura. I'm pretty excited, too. There are so many possibilities for the water feature - it makes my head spin.

Debra

Well, first things first----get the maple in, and the pond dug, and then the perfect solution will probably just scream at you!~

This message was edited Mar 12, 2007 9:43 AM

Imapigeon, that's just what I'm thinking. If I decide now, I may not like it later. The space will 'speak to me' when it's completed.

Another good day today. Finished the digging - but do need to check leveling. It's pretty deep at the deepest point. Will measure next time I work on it - hopefully, Wednesday. Am still transplanting out of this bed. I stuck all kinds of things in there last year. My two peonies planted last year are poking their heads out - I need to find a permanent home for them. Also worked on the bed adjacent to this one - it faces south and gets the afternoon sun. It had jasmine the past two years but was too hard to maintain. The jasmine was cut down this past fall and the bed was turned today in preparation for a perennials bed. I think a climbing rose on the wall and sun loving perennials overflowing in the bed. East to care for flowers such as day lilies, coneflowers, early blooming bulbs, etc. Lots of color as many months as possible. We have butterflies and hummers in the courtyard.

Would the peonies work in the new perennial bed? It is shaded until about noon, then gets the hot afternoon sun until sunset. It drains well, but is very hot with the heat radiating off the brick wall and concrete patio. Haven't considered moving them to that bed before because it wasn't available.

Here's the bed that is being made into a perennial bed.

Debra

Forget the perennial bed, check out the XX ivy on the wall! How did you do that? I am really a veggie gardener at heart so my inner landscape gardener is still dormant after all these years. Beautiful property, can't wait to the the pond and water feature Debra.

-Kim

Thanks, Kim - that's the Carolina Jasmine that no longer exists! LOL! It had beautiful yellow blooms this time of year and the birds liked to roost in it at night. We made a diamond shaped grid using brick nails and wire. It grew so fast that it was a real pain to maintain it. Had to use a tall ladder, etc. If you can grow jasmine you might want to give it a try. It's not hard, just time consuming. Ivy would grow into the brick, but the jasmine requires something to support it. It was something I wanted to try......been there - done that.....now it's out of my system and on to things easier to maintain. I'm going to put a climbing rose on the wall with the perennials in the bed.

Edited to add: it had probably just been trimmed before that photo was taken. It wasn't so pretty when it was out of control!

This message was edited Mar 12, 2007 10:10 PM

Oh well, it was pretty that day! Climbing roses will look great there! They will need something to cling to as well, or...What about an espaliered apple or pear tree on that wall depending on the amount of sun of course? Don't mind me, I am just jealous of the whole layout!

Oh wow, fleurs---I was thinking the same thing about the lattice pattern. NICE If you chose something other than jasmine it would be easier to maintain----like maybe a needlepoint ivy? Would that work on the wall behind your JM? Or is it too formal for that bed?

LOL! Yes, it was pretty that day after about an hour of clipping, pruning, untangling, etc. And was pretty for about 3 days until the jasmine started growing like crazy again. It loves the sun. It would be up in the eaves before we knew it and runners popping up along the ground. Roses do require some effort, but they grow much slower than the jasmine.

An espaliered fruit tree would be so nice, but there is very little space for root growth and I don't think they would do well. Needlepoint Ivy is so pretty, but the word ivy sends chills up my spine. We had two ivy beds on either end of our former home. It was a constant battle to keep it out of trees and from jumping the borders into the lawn. Does Needlepoint Ivy grow more slowly than English Ivy?

I know the pond area will require a lot of my time. The long range goal is to plant the other areas with low maintenance plants so we can actually sit in the courtyard and enjoy it rather than having to constantly be working to keep it looking decent. Of course, do any of us really consider it work??? This passage from a book I just purchased sums it up for me: 'Gardening.....is an essential activity that renews the soul as surely as spring renews the earth.'

Does this look like work to anyone? It looks like a playground to me!

Debra

Debra:

I struggle with my DH understanding the difference between what I consider "yard work" and what I consider "gardening". They look the same to him, but to me there's a HUGE difference. That's why I have 2 categories. To me, yard work is digging ditches and pruning big branches and that kind of heavy stuff, some of which which I hate. Gardening is planting and snipping and picking fruits and veggies! Your project looks somewhere in-between.....it's nice to have resident diggers!

Needlepoint ivy is really small-leafed, and is not nearly as rampant as English. (Like, you can't hear it growing!~) But it still might be more maintenance than you want. I wonder if the camellia could be trained to do the criss-cross? I think that is totally cool!

Another thought---speaking of maintenance, have you figured out your filtration, etc. for your pond? Pump? Electrical? Fish & plants, or chlorine? My first pond (20 years ago) was a real adventure---there just weren't the resources there are now. We had to completely redesign the system after about 3 years. Since then it's been pretty low-maintenance, with the exception of periodic algae-raking.

Janet

I'm still researching the pond system. I don't plan on having koi or expensive fish - just cheap goldfish if any fish at all. Will that allow for a less complex system? I'm hoping to avoid the need for chlorine. The plan calls for a small waterfall or fountain, a bog garden in the upper end and plants on the shelf. There is an electrical outlet available - it's hidden behind the EE in photo #2. Any advice?

Edited to add: I started a new thread on Water Gardens for advice on a pond liner.

This message was edited Mar 13, 2007 1:06 PM

No koi = MUCH less worry & much simpler system. Feeder goldfish are quite entertaining and really cheap. Plants and fish = no chlorine. My personal preference not to use a submersible pump---but they're a lot better than they used to be. I like the EMDP (?) rubber liners with the 30-year guarantee, with a thick layer of newspaper underneath so if you have any rocks it doesn't get punctured while you're installing. You'll need some water plants to keep your pond balanced; there are floaters like water hyacinths and water lettuce, and non-floaters. You probably want a waterlily or two (I should haul mine out this year, and I could send you starts if you want.) You also want something the fish can hide in, like a pot turned on its side. As I recall, you have sun in the pond area part of the day, yes? Water garden forum has lots of good advice, as does all of DG!

Couple of things about goldfish you should know, they like to eat plants. That is OK, just expect some nibbling on things in the pond itself. Try and avoid "duckweed", that is the little floating dots that divide and multiply at an alarming rate--far worse than English Ivy (1 dot divides to 2, divides to 4, divides to 8, 16, 32, 64...you get the picture). Water hyacinth has really pretty flowers, but will also need dividing and is prohibited in some places as it can escape into the local waterways.

As far as filtration systems go, you need a "system". It should have several parts to it, the pump to move and aerate your water. It should move so many times the volume of your pond per hour...experts will know the rate and can advise on what kit to get. Additionally, you need a mechanical filtration system, which usually consists of some sort of filter sponges, possibly a course one and a fine one to filter out debris. Last, you need some sort of biological filtration, which is normally some sort of container with porous objects in it such as lava rock, or "bio balls", which bacteria can grow on. Aerobic bacteria grow on it and process the waste matter in the pond into something the plants can use. All the ponds surfaces also contribute to growing bacteria (like in an aquarium), so rocks, and plants also help with that. A "balanced" pond is one where the system keeps itself fairly clean without a lot of intervention. It takes about 6 weeks for an aquarium to achieve a balance, growing the right types of bacteria, I imagine the process may be similar for a pond. Fish contribute ammonia, which they excrete from their skin and gills as waste, which the bacteria turn into nitrates and nitrites in turn, which feeds the plants, which produces oxygen for the fish and other pond critters. Best to wait a bit to add fish and don't add too many (ask the pond folks how many your small pond can handle). Too many fish too fast can excrete more waste than the bacteria load can handle...it takes time for them to multiply.

This is a summary, but hope it helps.

Laura

Great advice - so much information to process! Thanks so much to you both. That's very helpful.

Debra

Edited next day to add what I was too tired to add last night....I visited two nurseries yesterday and was in awe of the camellias in bloom. The dark pink, almost red, was breathtaking. The glossy leaves are beautiful. There must be a place for at least one!

This message was edited Mar 14, 2007 11:24 AM

DG has the most helpful, knowledgeable members on the web. Between this thread and my thread in the WaterGardens forum (http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/701133/), I've received some valuable advice in regards to the re-design of our courtyard which includes a small pond. Since both threads have each developed into a journal of the building of the pond I thought it was best to create one new thread for that purpose. I welcome anyone interested to follow us there and PLEASE feel free to offer suggestions or advice.

Thanks! Here we are http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/702542/

Debra

What a lovely area you are redesigning Debra. I've so enjoyed this thread and EVERYONE's photos.
carol