Cost Effective Vegetable Gardening Part 2

Pod's thinking like I am. Wouldn't adding some bloodmeal do the same? Bloodmeal is 100% Nitrogen...

The nitrogen in rainwater is disolved. Bloodmeal has to be broken down before it is usable by plants.

... but does it dissipate when standing?

Speaking of pH meter:

A local garden lecturer said that my local area is around 8.5 pH due to being on a limestone ledge, and our local tap water filters through that limestone, so even if you start with bagged soil or make your own mixture that is at a more optimal pH for most plants, the local tap water soon affects it.

I bought a pH meter at Lowe's for about $8-$12, I think, and found what the local teacher said to be spot on. Everything's at 8.5, while according to the website listed on the packaging, most veggies apparently want it between 6 and 7, although most have a range and will tolerate a little variation. Here is the website that provides best pH ranges for all kinds of things, http://homeharvest.com/plantphpreference.htm (choose flowers or veggies, etc., at the bottom of the list).

Anyway, it certainly makes sense for my area, that rainwater would have a very beneficial effect if it is slightly acid. I too notice that everything looks better after a rain, no matter how diligent I've been with watering from the hose.

I did some reading on the oxygen/nitrogen content of rainwater. I was looking for a good article to link to but they were all too scientific or otherwise unsuitable. Anyway..

The warmer the temps are, the less oxygen the rain can hold. It escapes from standing water. The more lightening the better for changing the electrical charge of molecules so oxygen and other elements bind to the rain. Nitrogen occurs naturally in the air and is also present as pollution. Polutants such as car exhaust also bind with it to cause acid rain. If it's too acidic, plants and fish suffer and can even die. The EPA started regulating emissions to limit acid rain. The products that cause acid rain leach into soil and can inhibit the uptake of nutrients depending on the strength and composition.

I think most of us consider loose soil best for plants because it allows drainage and ease for root expansion. Another very important function is that oxygen is needed for most of the soil microbes to function. They receive a small amount from plant roots but mainly need it available in the soil. So rain saturated with dissolved oxygen carries to the root zone and the microbes do their thing.

Thank you for your research effort and the commonsense explanation. I appreciate it.

Really interesting thread. So much to learn. I'd never thought about the oxygen content of rainwater, but it makes sense. Of course plant roots need oxygen too...not just microbes. I use rainwater for all my watering except watering young seedings in containers because I think it probaly increases the risk of pathogens ( damping off). Most of my harvested water is stored for more than 24 hrs which I guess loses the O2 content and increases the pathogen risk?
Re interplanting for space saving. Last year I grew perpetual spinach under my runner beans getting several crops before and after the bean harvest. Also butternut squash between the sweet corn. Both seemed to work well

I don't remember the timeline but any standing water picks up some oxygen from the air and especially wind. The farther from the surface, the less oxygen.

Lots of people have ponds around here that are supplied by artesian wells. We are told by the government agencies to create some type of splashing or agitation to mimic a fountain effect in order to introduce more oxygen into the water. In the summer it's not uncommon to hear of fish kills in ponds and natural lakes because the high temperature causes the water to expel its' oxygen. More oxygen also promotes aquatic plant growth.

I think in a rain barrel you could introduce oxygen simply by filling a container and pouring it back in several times but nobody does it better than mother nature. Think about an air stone in an aquarium.

I hear more all the time about dead zones in the oceans and inland streams that no longer support certain fish, such as trout. It is primarily caused by nitrogen and phosphorus entering the water from sewage treatment and agricultural run off but can be exacerbated by acid rain. The abundant nutrients cause a big algae bloom followed by large numbers of microbes that work to decompose it. The microbial action depletes the oxygen so fish can't get enough. The fish leave or die and the only life remaining are the much less desirable forms that we don't eat.

All this is to say that IMHO the single best thing we can do for our gardens is to try to maintain a balance. Earth worms are a good indicator and a good helper for aerating our soil. They open up pathways for water and whatever is dissolved in it. If we can keep our worms happy, it follows that the microbes and plants will be too.

I dug over a whole area today to put my potatoes in. Don't think the worms were too pleased with me, but I did apologise, and I do look quite scary ( with my straw hair and carrot nose) so the birds stayed away from them.
Cost effective veg growing..... the worms are essential. Free labour. Perhaps I should leave all the digging to them?

Finally getting back here, we've been so busy. Markets are booming, we're doubling the planting area. News crew is coming out today.
Tomatoes should be ripe any day, I noticed some were starting to get a little pinkish tint yesterday.
Interesting thing I've noticed in the garden. The tomatoes with cages around them are the biggest. The tomatoes planted near metal posts are also larger. Bud says it's because the metal draws nitrogen from the air, especially if it is lightening. I haven't a clue whether it's true or not.

Calalily that is wonderful news, it seems like things are finnaly picking up. Boy fresh ripe tomatoes, I am so jealous, mine are still growing and they have a while to go before they start producing.

That's fascinating about the tomatoes in cages and near metal stakes. A friend of mine grows his tomatoes in wire cages, and he doesn't prune them but just lets them go. They get huge and really produce. Some of the plants I gave him seemed twice the size of the ones I kept and also seemed to yield much higher numbers of tomatoes.

This is another frequently quoted tip that is inaccurate. Pruning growing shoots does not encourage more production but less. The leaves are producing food for the plant and its fruit not taking it away.

Whereas, pruning flowering trellises in determinate tomatoes can produce larger but less fruit. In well-fed indeterminates that set continually over the season, limiting fruiting trellises will not make much of a difference.

I also believe it is best to leave as many leaves as possible in the tomatoe plants as well, they also proctect the fruit from getting sunscald.

Great idea about metal cages. I think I'll put out my pea fence (which I use to support my tomatoes) - perhaps the next storm will add some nitrogen to the soil through them. My tomatoe seedlings are still too tiny to set outside.

Last year I did an experiment - one plot of tomatoes were all "Volunteers" - they were caged, but I did not pinch out the "suckers". The other plots were either grown from seed, or were purchased plants. The volunteers produced more tomatoes, but unfortunately they had no flavor! I didn't waste them - they went into the pot with the others to make sauce.

I don't think the pinch/no pinch had anything to do with the flavor - some of those volunteers were from tomatoes that had been purchased from the supermarket - and, actually, that's exactly how they tasted!

Direct seeded/volunteer tomatoes are always are the hardiest and most productive. I've always thought it was because the moderate stress of outdoor conditions forces the plants to into a do or die mode. They seem to excelerate growth, flower sooner and set much more than those started indoors. I have not really noticed a taste difference between those direct seeded and those started indoors. This year, I am also direct seeding peppers and eggplant. I will update on how this works out.

The one advantage I can see for transplants is the ability to start earlier. Transplants also have larger fruit earlier in the season.

Any other ideas why this is so? Other expereinces w/ direct seeding or volunteers?

I noticed some volunteer tomatoe seedlings sprouting in the garden this past weekend. I'm not going to save any of them this year.

I've lots of seedlings under lights, and have some that are ready for transplanting outside. The latter I have potted-up and left in my porch - I'm afraid a late frost might come along and kill them. This way, I can pull them inside for the night.

Hey, Ya'll,
I'm about to clear out the turnips from my raised bed. At this point in the season, I need suggestions on what to plant there next, please.

I have southern cowpeas, squash, watermelons, and cukes as options.

Please advise soonest, as the turnips are coming up this evening. Army worms are moving in.

Plant 'em all! I usually put viny things at the edge, and let them crawl around outside of the raised bed. Depends on whether you're using trellises or staking, and where the sun goes, I guess...

It's all good...

What size are the watermelons and squash?

Fordham crookneck squash, small personal size watermelons (some moons and stars, bush sugar baby), and regular old zuchini.

Never grew any of this before...

Summer squash like crookneck and zucchini take up more square footage than cucumber or watermelon. They also have a tight canopy that shades everything below it. Watermelon has a somewhat open canopy and cucumber has a very open canopy and climbs all over the place. Cowpeas are semi-vining. They will only get about 2-3 ft high and may not need support.

So, you may want to give the summer squash its own area of the bed and grow fast maturing crops like lettuce, radishes and spinach next to it until it reaches its full size. Watermelon grows great with onions, corn, amaranth and other compact vertical growing plant or along the side of the bed. Cucumbers can be grown next to corn, sunflowers, amaranth and other tall crops for support.

As you can tell, I mention amaranth quite a bit. It is a very easy to grow, attractive crop (can be grown in a flower bed) that produces tons of spinach like greens (its a close relative) in the middle of summer and edible heads of thousands of tiny seeds by the end of fall. If you have space, try to grow some. They are self sowers. The seeds are very easy to save from year to year.

DL,
You got a sampler of Amaranthe seeds for a trade or something?

No!! I am not trying to drum up business LOL ;) I just really like amaranth. Discovered it several years ago when I first started growing heirlooms. If you want some seeds, I am sure that I have some extra.

DL,
You say they're similar to spinach (which I love). Do they really TASTE similar to spinach?

If so, I would like some seeds!

Thanks.

I'll send you a d-mail with my addy.

dl what do you use the heads of amarath for, you say they are eddible but are they grains or just a flower that is eddible?

C, I think they are a grain?

Both are edible.

dlbailey - how does one cook amaranth? I had a book on amaranth once - it must have got lost during one of my many moves :(

The seeds are cooked like quinoa (another close relative), rice or other small grain. Leaves are used like spinach. Either eat it lightly steamed or stir-fried. I don't know any amaranth recipes off the top of my head. You will have to google it. Amaranth greens are used in Asian cooking. The grains and greens are traditional foods in Central and South America, dating back to Pre-Columbian times. Those are two areas that you can look for cooking ideas.

Generally, I harvest the greens until the seed head forms when they are more tender and tasty. The seed heads seem to get eaten by birds before I can cover them.

This message was edited Apr 15, 2010 9:00 AM

Dove and quail absolutely love amaranth seeds. The common nuisance pig weed is an amaranth and while we like to nip them in the bud, it's a kindness to let them go to seed. I try to leave a few in some out of the way places and cut the whole plant just as the seeds are mature but before they drop. I lay the plants out on the ground and a pair of doves passes through every day to strip the seeds off. When they're finished, the plant can go in the compost.

This year I'm growing Love Lies Bleeding which is a beautiful amaranth with long red ropes of seeds.

I'm growing Loves-Lies-Bleeding again this year, too. It is such a beautiful plant like all cultivated amaranth. Supposedly, it was very popular during the late Victorian Era. They would grow LLB next to their front yard fences so that it would drap over unto the street. This was back when people use to take walks around the neighborhood. People did up their yards for others enjoyment and to show off.

dlbailey - thanks for the tips on cooking Amaranth. I have tried Quinoa in the past, but hubby and I didn't care for it. The first time I didn't rinse it as suggested - but the next time I did. We still didn't like it.

My favorite cooked grain is Barley.

I like barley too! 'Specially in a beef soup!

Hmmmmmmm. I might just get a can of Healthy Choice soup for lunch!

Gymgirl - I cook everything from scratch. My favorite is bean and barley with maybe some cubed chicken thrown in.

I live on mostly vegetables, fruits and whole grains

Great!

You can teach me how to cook from scratch!

Gymgirl - don't you cook/eat all the vegetables you grow?

I love being able to step outside, pick a few veggies, and either steam or stir fry them for dinner.

I'm hoping to get photos of my herbs this weekend. Hubby set up a special section against the house with a poultry wire fence to keep the dogs off them. After seeing my neighbor's dog tinkling on my English Thyme one day - well let's say it was rather disquieting :)

Honey, if some a the ladies here encourage their men to whiz on their compost piles 2 get em to heat up, well you just wash that Thyme extra good and keep on going. What's for dinner?

Calalily.. I am jealous too!! You have harvested crops already?? I've not been to the island yet but I am thinking about it!! hahahahaha
I have never been successful at growing tomatoes here.. I've tried the patio, & the regular.. I got a free packet of Heirloom Tomato seeds so I may try those.
Unfortuantely I don't have the land to have a large garden so I am trying to grow my veggies in containers.. this is my first year to grow vegtables so I am not sure how things will turn out. I have already had a few lessons learned! hahahaha
This is a great site.. thank you for all your information... look forward to keeping up with everyone.

Gymgirl - I was thinking of you over the weekend and fixed some barley and vegetables for my take-to-work-lunches this week.

The neighbor's dog tinkled on the thyme about two years ago, and I haven't cut a single leaf from that one since :(

I have other thyme behind a fence, and some in pots that are raised up off the ground. I think I'll stick with them :)