Cost Effective Vegetable Gardening Part 2

This is a continuation of the cost effective gardening thread http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1079563/

One thing I was writing about on another thread was maximizing space through close, diverse plantings. Plants benefit from a dense network of roots and foliage. Like a micro-version of forest gardening. (I was going to write a long speel about how it works and what to do. Didn't want to bore anyone. Will post more info if anyone is interested.)

I've been trying to do this in my garden for a while. Most of the time, I am successful. Still learning as I go and trying to get out all the kinks. It seems that most people are already familiar with thses concepts. Many people on DG are practicing Square Foot Gardening. I am more familiar with the older methods of permaculture, forest gardening and bio-dynamic gardening. Hopefully, some of you will give up some more info on these methods. Growing the most in a given area is the best use of the two things most gardeners are short on time and space. It also maintains a good soil food web that can eliminate the need for chemical inputs, further reducing costs.

P.S. I have been looking at old photos of my garden over the last 3 years. Each year has been more productive. Intensive gardening methods really can work.

dlbailey, I am trying to do the same approach to food growing as you, more the permaculture type. Underplanting things underneath the bigger plants as well etc... with my limited space I think this really is the way to go. Please I am interested in any advice or info you can give me. I am reading many books on this subject but sometimes seeing pictures or getting first time advice helps more, I think.

I'm interested too.

I recently got the results of my soil tests and I am impressed with the quality of my soil. I haven't added a single store bought amendment since the first summer, 8 years ago and I do a lot of interplantings. Must really be something to the idea!

Carrots and tomatoes are great to grow together. I've done this for a few years. The tomatoes size does hold back carrots. Once tomatoes are taken out at the end of the season, carrots can be left for a few months to fatten up. Carrots pull up nutrients for tomatoes an corn, peppers, eggplants or other heavy feeders. Have planted carrots next to corn, too, with great results. I am sure that salsify and long radishes can be used in the same way.

I worked on two university gardens/ mini farms that have left the weed burdock and cultivated daikon radishes in the soil to rot and add for fertility. In fact, they usually judged if a 'weed' was beneficial or not before they pulled it. This is a big distiction between larger conventional farms and smaller operations. Not all 'weeds' are bad. Dandelion acts much like carrots and pulls up nutrients. Perennial clovers in lawns stabalize soil, attract beneficials and brings nutrients as their leaves and roots decompose. After amendements have been added and soil fertility increase, the improved health of the grass allows it to out compete the clover. This is what happened on our front lawn.

There is volunteer mint that keeps poping up in my beds. I have regulated it to the sides of my bed and along the fence. It seems to really attract the right bugs and keeps down other aggressive perennials like crabgrass and Berrmuda grass. BTW, Bermuda grass is the bain of my existence. I had to painstakingly dig it out of my garden for years until I finally got rid of it.

Alyssum and herbs (i.e. basil, sage, oregano, thyme and marjoram) that are allowed to flower do really attract beneficials. They depend on the nector and cover to sustain them until their prey shows up. Thyme, oregano, marjoram and certain clovers are resistant to compaction and can be planted on sides of beds or within paving stones on garden paths.

Mulch and decomposing matter as important to attract benefical insects and reduce destruction from slugs, snails, mealy bugs and earwigs. This may sound like the opposit of what many have been told. Yes, these microanthropoids do live in mulch/decomposing matter. Snails, slugs and mealybugs are primarily decomposers. They only eat young plants, leaves and shoots when their food supply has deminished. Snails and slugs have the added benefit of binding soil into aggregates. If they are still a problem, allow poultry or wild birds to consume their eggs - small round, mostly clear balls - in early Spring or smash them yourself. This has worked for me. The population in under control this year. Earwigs are primarily predators of decomposers and destructive insects. They can be beneficial if they have enough prey and not forced to eat plants.

Corn, cucumbers, vining squash and small melons grow well together. I am doing this again this year. In the past, I have grow a block of corn, a double row of vining crops, a block of amaranth, another double row of vining crops and another block of corn. Amaranth and corn are both hardy enough to support the vines. Amaranth provides a pollination divide for the corn. The vining crops don't require much nitrogen and thus not competition to the corn and amaranth. Amaranth also attracts birds and beneficial insects when flowering. It is also a duel purpose crop that is very easy to grow. The leaves can be cooked like spinach and the seeds like rice. The ability to have greens is important in hot areas like mine.

One word of warning about growing beans with corn. It does not add nitrogen to the soil when intercropped. Beans consume massive amounts of nitrogen. If the right rhizobacteria is present, it will obtain about 60-80% of its nitrogen this way. The nitrogen is held by the legume until it fully decomposes. It is better to plant a cool season legume as a rotation crop. IME, beans and corn do not make good companion plants. Beans (and peas) are too heavy of feeders. They hold back corn growth and development.

There are a few plants that have been reported to be harmful to each other that I cannot understand. Brassicas and tomatoes are suppose to be bad for each other. I have continual planted tomatoes in the Spring with cole crops that have grown all Winter and visa versa in the Fall. The productivity seems to increase, not decrease. Beans and tomatoes are also suppose to be bad for each other. I have never experienced this, either.

I planted melons with sweet corn last year. The corn was NOT strong enough to hold up the melons. The corn was a hybrid bicolor, not very tall. The melons were ananas melons, they covered everything.

I planted tomatoes immediately after the three day freeze we had. They are doing wonderfully(250 plants), have tomatoes the size of golf balls, plants are 3 ft tall. Soil temps were in the upper 30's when planted (and stayed that way for weeks). We always grow tomatoes in the winter.

Calalily, when you mention the corn stalks were not strong enough to hold the melons, do you mean that the vines were climbing on the corn stalks?

Thank you for letting me know about the maters, everywhere I read it always says that maters just don't like cool soil temps, but I had to plant mine early, so far they are doing good but temps still fluctuate in the 40's. I also was told that this could harm production, is this true?

DL,
Let's talk cabbages!
What's the average outside temp when you plant your seedlings?

Do you have a patch of season where the temps are averaging from 35°-50° day/night for at least 90 days? (If it get sunshiney and warmer during the day, grow them in a semi-shaded area where it stays as cold as possible during the day.
Are you adding nitrogen (I grow in eBuckets and mix in 2 Tbsp. bloodmeal to the top 3-4" of my potting mix.)

Cabbages are HEAVY feeders. I grow in a mix of 1/3 of my homemade compost, 1/3 Miracle Grow Potting Mix, and 1/3 Black Kow Composted Manure. The more organic, the better they like it. Once they're planted in the eBucket, I pour 2 cups of 13-13-13 granular fertilizer in a 2" ring along the very inside of the eBucket, as far away from the roots as I can keep it, then water it in only once. And, once they start heading, I begin feeding regularly with MG for veggies, about every 7-10 days.

They are also water hogs! (once they start heading). Keep em well watered...

I've got to go home a cut at least one today cause it split on me over the weekend. This'll happen with uneven watering!

My bad!!!

Lemme hear from you. I'd love to help you grow some successful cabbages, if I can!

dbailey, I also heard that the big sunflowers make wonderful trellises as well for the beans and cucumbers etc..

I had no idea about the beans and corn, every book I read tells me that they are good companions.

See what I mean, it is better to learn from folks that hand first time experience on things than to read it in a book sometimes books are wrong.

Carminator, that is why I have been starting to read articles and books meant for small organic farmers. The advice is based on actual experiences and research done in the field and lab. The organizations that publish them have to maintain their reputation and a high level of academic rigor. They are not going to state something that is not true or may be true.

Older gardening publications also contain good information. I know that there are people that will get upset if I state this, but some of the more recent articles and books I see are just recycling 'old advice and wisdom' without trying it themselves first. My sister checked out a gardening book for me that seemed to be just a vanity publication. Nothing but fluff. No wonder new gardeners become fusturated and give up. Too much conflicting information and bad advice.

About the beans and corn. The organic farming publications either tell you grow legumes as a rotation crop not as part of an intercropping system because of the reasons I stated. I had to learn this the hard way.

Gymgirl, I will leave cabbages to experts like you. I may try it again someday.

Gymgirl,
I'm glad to hear of your technique for growing cabbages. I was given a couple of transplants last fall and they are fairly large plants now but are only just starting to "head up," if that's the term I want. I wonder if they'll ever actually do it though! I have fertilized heavier than other veggies but not nearly as much as you have. I'll step up the fertilizing now and see if that invigorates them and will also tuck your info away for next time. Thanks.

LiseP,
Glad to have you aboard. I like traveling with friends!

If you're up for another journey, I plan on sowing seeds for the fall brassicas (cabbages, cauliflowers, broccoli, brussels sprouts) sometime in mid-June. If all goes according to schedule, I'll start planting cabbage seedlings out every three weeks from mid-August through mid-October this year. I should then harvest cabbages from mid-December through mid-February.

Pray for me!

I want to add my two cents worth...

I agree with Dlbailey. Gardening magazine and book publishers are out to make money. Not all of them really have any expert or experienced advice, but do have lots of pretty pictures that give us all garden envy. What works for me in my area, might not work for a gardener in another region, because of soil types, weather patterns, etc.

But I have learned, quite by accident, that what works for me is keeping it simple and basically following advice that I remember from the old magazines. The fact that I wouldn't spend the money on all of the amendments that are now recommended, saved me a tremendous amount of money and I still have great soil.

There is a lot of new information that has come out of science through the years. Crop rotation being one of those, and learning the nutritional requirements of the plants. But sometimes, I think in our desire to have the biggest best produce, we tend to over-anaylize (sp) our garden needs. I for one, just want to play in dirt and be amazed when as I watch something grow.

Ditto Kelly. Science has helped us understand how and why things work whereas in the old days folks just knew what did work. This has allowed us to apply whatever is lacking as best we can. Most people are not willing to dig through all the available info to get down to the basics which is where true success comes from.

The best use for gardening magazines IMHO is the pretty pics that can inspire us and help pass the time at the doctor's office. Microbes and nutrient conversion aren't noted for beautiful photo ops. Some of the best producing gardens I've ever seen belonged to low income people that didn't spend much if any $.

If I can get on the amendment soap box for a moment. Always now what your buying and were it is coming from. IME, the stuff from Lowes and Home Depot is crap. The compost is just twigs and shreded wood that smells like ammonia. Sometimes, there is too much sand and gravel in their manure.

The other day, a few friends were commenting about how their tomatoes did poorly last year. I asked them how they grew it. They put in some special tomato growing amendment - think it was really a potting soil. With the money they payed for it, they could have added loads of compost and manure. Would have given them better results.

Twiggybuds, agree that the best gardens are done by those on a budget. Most of those gardeners add almost everything organic from the household trash to the soil. Also add lots of inexpensive manure. Never use power tools. Create plant communities and so on. A lot to learn from these gardeners.

Here's a cost effective technique -- get organized and learn your plants.

I'm growing lettuce (buttercrunch mostly) but this other reddish stuff started coming up that I couldn't decide if it was weed or lettuce. I didn't want to pull it out, but didn't want to eat it either. Stalemate.

Well, hurray! Today I found a few pages of garden journal I'd started back in January (you know, the kind you start writing on the first few days and then forget about?) and I found the entry "scattered some red romaine lettuce seeds today." Now I can eat the stuff! LOL.

Gymgirl, keep trucking with those cabbages. I will live vicariously through you. We don't have a long enough 35-50 degree period to grow cabbages that well. Not that I am complaining. I'm a CA wimp and wouldn't know what to do in the snow. Really!!

Here is another tip: know your resources and how to be flexible. We are having a few days of rain and chilly weather. Didn't want to set back my tomato seedlings. I was inclined to go out and buy more row covers to double up the ones already over the beds. Then I thought, I have half a straw bale. Straw is a great insulator and will slow down the raindrops. So, I mounded the straw over the sides of the tunnel. It seems to be working quite well. I was afraid that the straw may be too heavy and flatten the tunnels. But they seem to be holding their shape well. Didn't have to pay an extra penny for the added protection from the elements. Last year, I used old blankets to cover my beds when a freak frost came for a few nights in March.

On a side note, has anyone ever noticed that plants grow faster in rain? Is they negative ions in the air during rainstorms? The water? Or the nutrients in the dust particles that the rain brings down? Or is it just illusion?

I've also noticed rain makes plants grow even when they have been well watered by other means. I have always thought that it was because the rain has dissolved oxygen that the roots like, plus the dust particle nutrients. But I've never thought to search for the truth. The top few inches of surface water such as from a pond or ditch also has dissolved oxygen and is more helpful than what we can get from a faucet.

Twiggybuds, I never thought about dissolved oxygen. It makes since. Must help the bacteria and fungi get a boost. You made me think. Maybe, I should try leaving out my water before I use it on my plants. Also, there is an old gardening trick were you boil water then seal it in a jar. The water is suppose to encourage seedling growth and make them healthier. Should try it.

We always hear about plant's taking in CO2 and expressing oxygen but not much about them needing it. So maybe it does only aid the microbes which in turn aid the plants. I only know there's some kind of beneficial effect. That's one reason I use peroxide water to start and maintain my seedlings. The nasties that cause root rot must be anaerobic.

Hello, This is Ric, I've been following this thread and enjoying it quite a bit. HollyAnn is my DW, we share her DG.
One publication I have found to be helpful is "Mother Earth News", it has a lot of information by people who have been there, done that while trying to save a $$$s. Another good source is the "Foxfire" books. Ric

We recently resubscribed to Mother Earth News after not having seen it for twenty or thirty years and we're really impressed by it. I picked up a copy of Grit, a sister publication, to see what that was like, but the topics in MEN are much closer to our interests. We also get Backyard Poultry and Hobby Farms, both of which are very helpful in their own ways.

I have heard very good things about "Mother Earth News" maybe is time that I subscribe as well.

There is definitely something in rainwater that plants like. I see definite growth and vigor after a rain.

I think part of it may be what rain water does not have - like all the salts and chemicals our water has. You can buy filters for your outside faucets, or what I do when I hand water seedlings is fill buckets and let the water sit to dissipate the chlorine and other yuckies in our city water.

Lots of good ideas in this forum.
One thing on some of those old "don't" for companion plantings.
I think some of them come about because one or the other plants attract insects or disease which affects the other plant.

According to online answer sites and other gardening forums, rainwater brings down pollutants like nitrogen (which comes from car exhaust) that double as fertilizer. Basically, mild acid rain is making them grow.

Not sure how true this is, but it does seem a very plausable explanation.

That explanation on rain water sounds plausable dl...

To answer your question, the concentration of chlorine in most tap water is fairly low, thus it should evaporate within a couple of hours. However, I usually fill my buckets and don't use them for maybe 24 hours later...

I also water with straight tap water and so far have not killed anything - lol...

Just to let you know about all the chemicals at least in my water, when I started making worm compost tea, I used the water just out of the faucet, the whole thing stunk and I ended up having to throw it all away, then I used water that I let sit for 24 hours and the whole thing smelled like plain dirt like it is supposed to smell like. The microbes did not survive with the water that came out of my faucet the first time, they all died and that is why the horrible smell.

I've been thinking of getting a rain barrell to collect rain, but they are pretty pricey.

I've got 5 rain barrels or collectors. There's an old thread on the Homesteading forum, I think, with directions on how to make one for under $15 or so. If I use all of the collected rain water, I fill them with the hose and then dip out water as needed with my waterling can.

carminator1

good info reg the worm compost tea.

also, on another forum the strawbale I believe there is a link to using strawbales and on of the other links show how to take a plastic garbage can and add a spicket at the bottom then an overflow hose then add screening over the top and cut out part of the top of the garbage can lid place over the screening (which keeps the mesquites and other thing out of the water...

Oh my gosh, so much cheaper than what those things are going for right now....

here is the link but for some reason I can't get the full web address for the rain barrel, so once you get to this go down to where it list the other videos and hit the right arrow one time the rain barrel

http://www.vegetablegardener.com/item/8453/video-make-a-straw-bale-garden-bed

if it doesn't work let me know and I'll try to figure out how to get it to ya.


Great discussion here. Really enjoy it.

Janet

Hey. In store looking at soul pH meters. Digital plus by Rapitest for $27.99. Stores up 2 400 favorite plants 4 EZ reference. Have many eBuckets to test! Come back reply quick please!

Never used a pH meter Linda...

The Permaculture Guild here in Phoenix offers classes on making a rain barrel. It's like $45 for your materials which they provide and you go home with your very own! I priced them on the internet once and just about choked - lol. Easier on the 'ol wallet to make your own.

Kelly, Carmin et al,
Take a look at this website! Someone stumbled upon and posted here on DG.

Awesome!

http://www.gardeners.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-Gardeners-Site/default/Page-KitchenGardenDesigner

P.S. I went ahead and bought the soil pH meter. I'm sure I need to know where I stand with all those different eBucket mixes I've put together!

P.S. S. I've noticed that my eBucket soil is getting compacted and hard after awhile. Any recommendations for additives to keep it loose and fluffy would be appreciated soonest, as this is a MAJOR planting weekend.

P.S.S.S. That website sure came in handy to decide what to do with my partially planted Raised Bed #1 and my totally empty Raised Bed #2!

This message was edited Mar 31, 2010 4:56 PM

Gymgirl, If you have any Pro Mix B available to amend your soil it will keep it loose and make it a little lighter, holds good moisture, yet drains well. You will also benefit from the microzymes. Ric

Thanks for the link to the planner!

This message was edited Mar 31, 2010 7:34 PM

That's cool! They had one last year but it wasn't adjustable to different widths and lengths.

I have used rain barrels for a few years now and water plants with it as long as the water supply holds out. As much good as rainwater seems to do for the plants, I find the standing rainwater does not have quite the same effect although it certainly isn't detrimental.

Carminator, you can also access MEN articles online. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening.aspx

I've always understood that it's nitrogen that's brought down with rain, especially after a thunderstorm. I used to wonder how trees and wild plants (weeds) were able to survive without supplementations until someone told me this many, many moons ago.

Nitrogen would make sense as things always look really green after a rain...

Would the nitrogen not stay in standing rainwater?