Japanese irises - why don't you grow them PART 2

What I have to fight in summer are the darn mosquitoes. They bother me big time, and bite big time.

Going to buy a bunch of histriotes and reticulata bulbs. I just love those little guys and they usually bloom before the daffs here.

D

Polly, I'm pretty new to using the crystals; I've been leery of them and have steered away from using them till I received some in a swap last year. I tried those in hanging baskets, and judging from they way they worked in those, it looks like they keep moisture available to plants while retarding the evaporation process.

Several years ago, while I was working as a floral designer, similar products were available for cut flowers. We loved the look of them and thought we'd found a great way of holding designs in place in clear containers. However we soon found that most cut flowers were unable to harness the moisture trapped in the crystals, and designs were short lived. That experience kept me from even considering using the crystals, until recently hearing such good things about them. I guess plant roots can access that moisture.

I don't like adding chemicals or man made stuff to my soil, especially space age polymers, LOL. So I think I'm sufficiently talked out of it for the time being. We'll see how this growing season goes, and if I get desperate enough to consider the idea again. Perhaps if I do decide to try that route, I'll do it in a submerged container- I'd feel more ecologically responsible that way :-)

I think we need a little color. Are'nt they wonderful. New boots for the garden. My clogs disintegrated last fall, got my money's worth tho, they lasted 30 years.

Two words - Expanded Shale - solves the moisture and air problems in heavy soils, and is great for containers and pots.

Personally, I agree with not dumping single purpose man made items into the ground without more info. The concerns may be over stated, but until I hear more experiences or opinions I would avoid them.

OK what is expanded Shale? Not heard of that one.

I prefer mulch compost natural things as much as possible

D

See my post and links above on March 26 about expanded shale. It is a natural product.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=6321143

they take shale gravel and heat it, it pops like popcorn! we use it in our rose beds, too. am told if you use more than recommended it will deter voles. they don't like it. it looks a bit like oblong or oval pellets. we have Permatill here.

Thank you Chuck. Then I image here in the PNW it really will not do much as we are more loam, some clay, some sand...near Salem that is almost perfect to grow as at time it was a river.

I printed off the infor and thank you

D

As I've been getting less and less trusting of products and chemicals over the years, it doesn't take much to steer me away from using them. Fortunately the soil here is quite good, loamy and black, but with enough clay and organic matter to hold moisture well, so I'll probably just go the compost and mulch route. One year I got fed up with the Japanese beetles and resorted to some kind of systemic, later I noticed the butterflies and hummers at a plant I'd treated and was mortified at the thought of poisoning the nectar. I don't know if that happens or not, but just the possibility made me cringe.

I just read the link - like I said, we can buy the popcorn gravel as I call it. the brand "Permatill" is available from Ace Hardware and specialty garden shops locally, in 40 - or was it 50? - pound bags, to add to the soil, not premixed into the soil. It looks like smooth black ovoid gravel. The bags are very hard for me to manage, like manuevering a 50lb bean bag.

Witherspoons Rose Gardens are THE top tier rose people here. I've worked with them off and on for over 20 years and know they know everything there is to know about growing roses in the Carolinas. gave up getting roses anywhere else.

For clay soil, they recommend, for every 2 large HT roses, approximately -
as much compost as you can
1 40lb bag Permantill
1 40lb bag composted manure
1/2 bag soil conditioner (extremely finely ground pine mulch)
one to two Tbsp. polymer crystals
and 1 18 lb bag of bone meal per 4-6 roses. keep in mind that roses love our clay soil for its minerals. they suffocate or drown in just the clay alone - not enough air, too much water when wet.

after reading all I could find, and talking to the Spoons, I've been doing a variation on the above for bearded irises, not quite as much compost and manure and no crystals yet, and some lime as our soil is on acid side. for JIs, I did all the same as for roses, except ran out of Permantill and ran low on manure. for them, I didn't add lime.

everyone I talk to swears voles do not like soil with plenty of Permantill in it. once in the soil, I can't see the Permantill. my eyesight is bad, maybe theirs is too, and they don't like biting down on rock.

Keep in mind the there are different crystals. I saw those university studies on the polyamide crystals, and these did have some success. The cornstarch based ones seem to have much better success for several reasons. I do think these are more useful in either drought areas, spots that have good drainage, or places that get rain once or twice a week or less. 2 of those apply to my spot. The cornstarch based ones (cloudy tannish) were almost twice as good at releasing the water back when the plants wanted it than the polyamide (clear). I'm guessing a batch of spots in Oregon wouldn't be good for them. :-)

After a year, they break down into stuff that the soil microbes really enjoy. They are also used as a top dressing for crusty spots, and for loosening up hard clay spots. I read great things about the expanded shale, but that seems to be a local product designed for certain areas, and available in certain areas. I don't want to even guess what the shipping for those might be. :-) I avoid chemicals whenever possible, also, but I knew these two spots would likely not get watered by me more than once a week, if that. The spots near the spring aren't going to get ANY crystals.

Thanks for the info on the dividing!! I didn't know that. I've bought an auger, and made arrangements to borrow a 2 handled drill. I'm ready and waiting for the RHIZOMES. Hmm, had to use spell check on that, but I got it right this time.

The only crystals I have are not the cornstarch based ones that I am sure of because just read the bag..

Here in OR, since we get a little rain than most will not add the kind of crystals I use for shipping. I did try a pansy in the garden and after away it just died do not know why just did but used the crystals on that little guy, so nothing on the iris beds.

I image a little that gets stuck to the roots/rhizomes of the beardless iris will not really hurt, but I know I get 90+% off of any that I receive rather I pot or plant.

Not enough research for me for the commerical beds.

Thanks for the info,.

D

Well, I did go look and just had to order FRILLED ENCHANTMENT. Will be my first Japanese Iris in many many years. Since there is a $25.00 minium order, I also ordered Spuria ADRIATIC BLUE and siberian WORTH THE WAIT. ADRIATIC BLUE was the spuria that I saw a picture of on another thread here on the iris forum and thought it was just the most beautiful thing. Of course, that's what I thought about FRILLED ENCHANTMENT too :-))

I know just were the one Japanese Iris wil go in my garden. The Siberian will start my new collection that I intend to have but I have no idea what to do with the spuria.

Good Rita. You will love Frilled Enchantment.

I've never grown a spuria, but will try one this year to see how it does. I think they can pretty much take the same conditions as daylilies, and sibs. Dee can tell us better.

I also love Louisiana irises, and you might consider some of those. Pirl in your area has great luck with them. Mine are too new to say how they are going to do, but close by in Rochester they do really well.

Does anyone use 10-10-10 around Japanese iris? Mine are up! Hurray they made it thru. Sorry, if it has been discussed, I missed it. What are you guys using?

A newbie,
Teresa in KY

I need to find some of the cornstarch crystals! Those sound perfect for allowing new plants to get established.

Seeing the 1 or 2" new blades arising from the JIs, I'm itching to go ahead and fertilize them. Polly, I believe you mentioned waiting till they're about 6" tall; I'm guessing I should wait to discourage too much tender new growth that could get nipped by frost?

I can now finally do all the bearded iris but will wait until the beardless are up to 5-6" inches...as I know that is better for them, and to be honest last year I noticed that when I waited until they got a little bigger seemed like I received better bloom

Beakerj, what is the name of the cornstarch based crystals...as other than pre emergents, fertilizer and dacinol, I do not like too many chemicals as we have seen what it does to things, as we have two testing centers near us, and lucky I know the managers of them and if it is something I was thinking might be good for the commerical bed I ask how is it going and usually I get results. One product, not on market that I thought that would be a great systemic for the iris, ended up almost killing all the test plants I had given them, so that is a NO GO yet for the general garden it was so so...but as I said I know they say there is more concern finally on the effect of the ground and the future than there used to be years ago...

D

The company is Zeba, the product name Quench. They sell it several places, but the best price for my amount was Amazon.

http://www.zeba.com/

My fingers were seriously itching to do more, and I found a local kid to help, but the weather has shifted again! Sigh. Possible snow tomorrow, and all of the week the temps will be normal for March. I'm trying to figure "oh, well, I'll get some indoor stuff done", but it's still annoying!

thank you, will do some looking to find. I have two workers coming tomorrow one for the beardless and one to help me with the bearded. Today or tomorrow my honey will spray the end of the fields where nothing is planted with roundup and fertilize the areas that we done,.

D

Hope the weather improves

D

Neal, if your weather is going to be above freezing go ahead and fertilize anytime they are up about 2-3 inches. I usually recommend six, as by that time the weather tends to stabilize. These plants KNOW what they're doing. They usually don't get too tall until all chance of freezing is past.

Bluegrassmom, I use 10-10-10 or any equivalent, (12-12-12 etc,) on the JIs. If you notice any yellowing of the leaves, put some Miracid on.

Thanks, pollyk
I will have to wait a bit, mine are just breaking dormancy.

Mine too. We're in the same zone. Miles apart though. Are you up in the mountains?

I live just north of Nashville, TN across the KY state line. It is the southcentral part of KY and not the eastern where the mts are. We have mostly rolling fields here.

bluegrassmom, I wondered where Lewisburg was, I'll be in your neck of the woods a couple of times in the next few weeks. A friend in Nashville is getting married Memorial Day weekend and I'm doing the flowers. The temps are dropping here today, supposed to get down to 27 tonight. I'll probably wait a couple of weeks and fertilize the JIs when I'm fertilizing roses.

And speaking of Roses, do any of you grow them alongside JIs? Oh how gorgeous they'd be together! And JI's bloom with that first glorious flush of rose blooms.

the fellas at Ensata told me that JIs don't much like the chemicals folks spray on the roses. But I have a New Dawn climbing rose behind my JIs. about the time the JIs bloom here, the roses are getting too much heat and their flush of bloom dies back.

That would be ok here, I rarely use chemicals. I was going completely organic till I saw the writhing black mass of Japanese beetles on my blooms last year and went to the dark side. Even then I only hit the blooms. Maybe I'll try it with a tough, ever blooming rose (I'm thinking Pink Knockout).

I really like the JI pictures I've seen. Wondering how well would do in zone 8b. Seems like they prefer a cooler climate than our long hot summer in the Dallas area. My various beardeds and LA irises do well, but they seem to be a tougher breed.

I honestly don't know Chuck. They are listed by Currier McEwen up to Z9a.

Would you be able to give them part shade and water? If so, I think they would do fine. They are beautiful, and I would think it might be worth it to try one.

Chuck, If you do not want to spend much money on an experiment, I would go to one of the mart stores and see if they have any JI and get one, dig a big hole, fill half way with good compost plant the JI in shady not full shade but filtered shade cover it up and water will continue watering until you see new growth, then water an normal...this is what they did down in Austin and it worked for them.

Then if it works and you really like the looks then order from a commerical source.

Hope this helps

D

Thanks Polly and D

D - I got spoiled looking at your website - so I'd rather order a couple from you if I'm going to experiment, might as well spend my time for something nice. LA iris do great with my limited sun. Even if they didn't put out many flowers, the tall striking leaves make a nice backdrop against the fence. Not sure I recall seeing any JI in stores or at nurseries around here over the years.

The part or filtered shade got my attention. Have plenty of that, and will only get more as the trees keep growing. Used to have lots of sun and tons of great beardeds. As the shade increased, had to scale back due to poor growth and few buds. New affliction is hostas and ferns.

This is the area I am primarily looking for part to shade plants. Think the JI's would do well here?

Thanks
Chuck

I think they might need a little more sun than that, Chuck. But try them there and see. They will grow if the don't have enough sun, they just might not bloom well, and then you can move them.

I would recommend buying from a grower, rather than trying from a mart, unless you can get them in a pot. The bare root ones from a mart will be small and probably dried out, and very well may die, and you wouldn't know if they died from your conditions or from the way they were cared for before you got them. (A pot would be fine). Dee will send you nice healthy roots, that will thrive.

The word aroun here on JI is to plant them in a pot, put in water until the roots grow out of the pot, then plant them in the ground. That advice was given by a JI specialist (now deceased). I can't think of his name at the moment.

Personally I have very little luck with them in pots. That would be the answer to my prayers right at the moment as I have 270 to plant today and tomorrow that came early and I was not prepared for.

Polly if you plant in 2 gallon pots JI works for a couple of years here if I can not get to them and get in the ground, also I always keep a couple of kiddie pools just for emergency plants and pots like the position you are in right now.

D

Thank you Chuck...

Thanks Polly

so much about pot survivability is the medium used in the pot. Maybe you can try a few in pots, polly, with different amounts of drainage. You may find something that works well for you. I can't do pots because I tend to forget to water them, but I'm hoping those hydrogels will help counteract my forgetfulness. I have a few creel pots that have to be watered once a week, but drain out very quickly. kind of interesting. My regular container "soil" was holding too much moisture - had to add a bunch of pine bark fines.

Good luck planting them all! I'm jealous!

The pot in the water method is temporary, just until the roots get longer, then plant as usual.

I have a nursery, BeakerLJ, and have very good luck with planting in pots. The JIs just won't overwinter for me. And if I do try to overwinter them, the mice chew into the pots. They seem to love the JIs (and the ornamental grasses). I overwinter sibs and bearded for the nursery well in pots, but the JIs just don't want to overwinter. I could have potted them up for a few weeks with no problems, but rather than do all that I got the area ready. Can you imagine how much time and potting mix it would take to pot up 270 JIs? If I could have kept them over the winter in the pots it would have been worth it. JIs don't grow as well in pots as they do in the garden, anyway.

I do understand what you are saying, IrisMA. Dee and I spoke about that before. That method works good with sibs, too. And a lot of the species can just be grown in water, no soil, until they put out new roots.

I got 1/2 planted, the rest tomorrow.

ah, I was cleaning. have the two JIs that bloomed last year. I just found the browned seedpod one put out. I'd put it in an envelope just as it was opening and spilling out seed.

anyone can tell me, can I plant these now? dee's taught me a thing or two about hybridizing TBs, but I've not had any seeds to sprout yet. lost this pod in the frenzy of planting last fall. any chance for it? it's not been in cool.

Polly super job with the planting. Gotta plant armandii clemetis for the wedding today and get ready to see the chiro...

How I pot my JI for temp about 300 I think, is pot with really good soil, put in a straight line and then surround with sawdust to top of pot. Now I do not think that would work for you with all the snow..

Polly are the JI and Sib breaking out yet? Here up about 4" so maybe if the sun comes next week will be able to fertilize.

A customer of mine found a 5-10-10 fertilizer available at the local Southern States feed and garden store. That may be helpful information for your customers who live near a Southern States store. They want $14.25 for a 50# bag.

Got all the bearded done except for the nearly planted ones last fall and will get those this week.

I am starting to stress because I have to get the bearded field done and the main garden done no later than 5-15 in time for everything to be nice for the wedding.

D

It sure is stressful, Dee, to have a business and a wedding going on at the same time.

I have some sibs, and just a few JIs breaking ground. The species are up pretty good. It's supposed to be warm next week, and if we get a good shower they will be popping up.

I don't think it was the lack of hardiness that did the JIs in. It really was a lot of mice/ mole damage. They ate the roots. You could see where they chewed holes in the side of the pots close to the bottom. I have no idea how to prevent that. In my ornamental grass at home business I always baited for mice/ moles, and still lose a ton in pots, so I went to planting them pot in pot in the ground. I could try that with the JIs, but that's a lot of work. I sell the grasses in pots, so it's beneficial to keep them in pots, but not the JIs.