part II on basic how to propagation based on my experience

Hi everyone:
Welcome to the newcomers and welcome back to those that have been here from the begining.
Here is the new thread. I am working on the main disscussion Aeroponics and Bubles a combination of both method with a discussion on adding hydrogen peroxide to boost the o2 levels. I hope to post in a little while if not I do promise it will be up tomorrow as its all I have on my calander to do. We will disscuss Tissue Culture a bit more later in this thread. I know several of the followers have expressed an interest in trying it. It may work out to its own thread which I think would be best as it will get long all by itself.

Dave

I'm anxious to hear about this stuff Dave. Looking forward to it.

Jeanette

Yea me too. so publish alreade Geeze... lol will be on today after noonish
Dave

Okay - but I didn't get a chance to say I want in on any TC stuff - even if I'm half a country away, lol...

Thats fine. I fuguire we will have quite a few people doing this. I think a co-op to get the kits so we can get a discount on the materials and how 2 dvd, cd.I think we have at least 5 maybe more at the moment and I expect the number will climb. any idea on what you might want to try to clone? I'm just curious. I am thinking daylilies and maybe hostas but deffinately daylilies. I already have a bunch of cross pollinated seedlings growing. I have read it takes upto 3 years to get a bloom so I will have to do a batch every yeay but it not that bad. I want to grow and mass produce one of my own named daylily.
Please chime in if you think you want to do the tissue culture next year. Also please let us know what you are thinking of cloning. It wont be final untill we order so initial thoughts are just that thoughts. Final choices will be made when we order.
Dave

Count me on the tissue culture. I would like to try hydrangeas.

Thanks

Gary

Mmm - probably Hostas and J. Maples. Actually (and don't laugh too hard!) number one on my list is Sweet potatoes. Not the vine, the vegetable.

yummy I love sweet taters.... japanese maples would be a real sweet thing to clone.
I am hopeful we will be able to do this right after the spring rush. any suggestions on a better time is greatly apreciated. I am having my 1st part on aeroponics proof read and I hope to get it and mabe part 2 on today. Thank you for your patients.
Dave

I'd love to see TC on Japanese Maples but I don't think any have been done, right? Most I see for sale are grafted.

You are correct: they graft the desirable top to a strong rootstock which takes years to get a nice tree. It may be a difficult undertaking but it would be a fun experience.

is it green? does it flower? That is all I need to motivate me. LOL

ok here we go. Please excuse some of the incomplete thoughts I tried to make as much sense as possible. I am not sure where I got my reference material so its author unknown and as always use your own judgement on wheather or not to even try this. I truely believe when we get it all pulled together it would make a great system. soooo with out further adoo here we go. keep all hands and feet inside the car at all times....LOL

Aeroponics &, Bubbler Propagation

I have really no experience on this subject except for my failed trial and error method. The literature I am reading makes sense to me and is probably correct on a lot of points. I am also sure a few people will wonder why I am doing a discussion on something I really don’t know that much about. The reason is because I was asked to do it. I want any input possible from anyone who has successfully worked the system and from those who have had problems. Maybe we can all get the issues resolved so that it works for you.
Oxygen: oxygen is an important part of all plant growth. It is used in aerobic respiration (an essential plant function where the plant releases energy for nutrient uptake and root growth). Most systems hold oxygen as dissolved oxygen in the nutrient reservoir. Dissolved oxygen is the oxygen molecules that has been taken from the outside air and have attached themselves to other molecules such as hydrogen for H2O. If the supply and depletion of the dissolved oxygen happens then plant growth slows and may even completely stop. The initial signs of depletion show as plant stress, wilting of the leaves is usually the first thing we see.
Sufficient oxygen is necessary to avoid plant stress as well as slowing down the plants ability to take up nutrients. As the nutrients build we end up with a build up of nutrients often referred to as salts. Salts are nutrient that have combined and dry out in the root zone. They often burn the roots and can cause excessive damage to the plant. This build up will also slow all processes of the plant. Including photosynthesis, transpiration and respiration, If the depletion of oxygen continues for a period of time the roots will start to become starved for oxygen and eventually end up with a stunted plant showing many abnormalities.
Increasing the supply of oxygen available to the nutrient solution is often done by the use of air pumps and air stones. Most of us remember our 1st aquarium where we had a small pump with a rock on the end of a hose that made bubbles in the tank. Sometimes we even attached it to an ornament to disperse the oxygen and add interest to the tank. This is basic formation of dissolved oxygen in the tank. We all just thought it was neat and had no idea as to the reasons why or what purposes it had.
The science behind all this has to do with particle size and the combination of molecules. The main thing to take from this is that the smaller the bubbles and more numerous amounts of them increase the surface area of oxygen and provides a more conducive environment for the combination of nutrient molecules with the oxygen molecules. Basically the more bubbles and the smaller they are the more the can attach to the nutrients in the water. Air stones have a built in advantage as well. Their shear weight they keep the air supply at the bottom forcing the air bubbles to rise and giving the oxygen molecules a greater chance to combine with the nutrients in the solution.
Most systems of bubblers are nothing more than a tank or bucket a long air stone with tubing attached to an air pump. The reservoir is usually covered with a lid that allows for individually cells that allow the cutting to dangle in the water and are exposed to the nutrients and air solution. I think the reservoir needs to be light resistant to keep the formation of algae from happening in the reservoir. Algae can use the dissolved oxygen from the reservoir.

I hope this makes sense. Dave

Edited to correct a mistake in the explination above: H2o is water and it will stay as water until plants use it in their processes. Dissolved oxygen comes from the air introduced by the aquairium pump in the reservoir. As the o2 is supplied to the reservoir it can mix with the hydrogen peroxide to further enrich the o2 level available to the cuttings. I mentioned dissolved oxygen as being in water It is not part of water. It comes from the airbubbles introduced into the water. the more air bubbles in the reservoir the more dissolved oxygen and the more surface available for the dissolved oxygen to live in. This is why I believe more than one airstone in the system would be benificial and aid in rooting in the aeroponics system. I hope this helps clearify the confusion Dave 10272008

This message was edited Oct 27, 2008 9:55 AM

As I had said, I have been "bubbling" only brugs for the last 3-4 years. Here's my page from way back when (04) and a photo of my setup (A real nice photo of a trash can, LOL) I might add that I always had better luck in cooler temps and away from direct sunlight. Actually, I had forgotten one brug when I potted up this spring, found it still bubbling away in the dark -- and in bloom--in June! http://www.freewebs.com/hybridangels/bubblingbrugs.htm

Too funny!

Ok guys, did you miss me? Did ya, huh, huh? Yeah right.

I'm not gonna act like I"ve read all the post, but am going back to do so, just wanted to touch base. Kinda like being away from home a while.

Jeanette, if you didn't find the Lantana thing, it's on the last thread bout middle way down. Starts with post # 5479121. Lots of pictures.

Ok guys, back to read all the post and learn something.

The following should be put in as paragraph 4 in the above post.

Ok added note on part one where it talks about dissolved oxygen. Dissolved oxygen happens when it attaches to other molecules to form a more complex molecule. A perfect example is when the added bubbles attach themselver or part of themselves to 2 hydrogen molecules gives us H2O with the O being dissolved oxygen. I am sure there are a lot of other complex molecules that oxygen can combine or connect to and become dissolved oxygen. Personally I wonder if the oxygen molecules become dissolved as they make their way through the reseviors solution and finally release back into the outside air. I believe it to be dissolved as long as the oxygen is still working its way throught the concentraited solution.
I hope this helps everyone understand dissolved oxygen better. The more the dissolved oxygen is present in the solution the more it is available to the root zone for use. when the solution becomes depleted or just runs low can make the roots slow down their growth and cause the plant to show signs of stress. prolonged deficiency of oxygen to the root zone eventually can cause stunted growth, root loss and exen soluable salt build up in the root zone which in turn burns the roots and leeds to root loss.

So therefore it stands to reason the more available oxygen there is the more roots should form and at a faster rate than a plant lacking sufficent dissolved oxygen.

I hope this helps Dave

Where were you Lorraine? I thought you ran away from home and forgot to take your computer with you.

Of Course we missed you. But see your name on more co-ops so knew you were busy.

Jeanette

Ok part 2 of the aeroponics how 2.

True Aeroponics is the use of mist that is applied directly to the root zone. This is done by use of a submersible pump magnetic driven if the best kind of pump for your system. The most important thing in this application is particle size of the water being applied to the root zone. 30 to 100 microns is the range we are shooting for. This will saturated the air and maintain the proper humidity level for root formation making the most contact to the root zone while levels over 100 microns will just fall away making their way back into the mist solution.
We have a choice to make continuous or intermittent mist application. Continuous has a higher operational cost where the intermittent system has the added cost of timers and valves. We are shooting for a 1 – 2 minute on and 5 minute off cycle. This timing insures the root zone does not dry out between misting cycles. Due to initial start up costs I plan on doing a continuous system.
For simplicity we will discuss an all in one system where the nutrient reservoir is in the rooting chamber. This allows the excess spray to run off the root zone and make its way back into the nutrient solution. You will need to pay attention to the system to make sure the roots do not grow down into the reservoir and clog the pump. Roots’ growing down into the reservoir is not a bad thing unless it clogs the pump. Hopefully by the time the roots have gotten to this size you will have already planted the new plantlet into a container with your favorite growing medium. I recommend you check the system daily to make sure the nozzles are spraying properly and the pump is function as needed. When we add soluble fertilizer to water and use it as a mist the nutrient molecules can bind with other molecules to form salts which when they get big enough can clog the pump, mist heads and the air stone. This can easily be remedied by soaking the mist head in a bleach solution. This will dislodge the salts and disinfect the mist head. The use of an inline filter as well as a pump filter is highly recommended as this will cut down on clogging of the system.
I located a source for the mist nozzles as well as pvc “T’s” that accept the mist nozzles. The nozzles run $3.00 each Item # 6032 & 6033 and the “T’s” are $1.40 each Item # 6045 and they are available at. http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/index.cfm?searchflag=1&page=_search&s=poly+misting+nozzle&PageNum_newsearchQuery=1&varShowPer_custom=12&varOrderby=ProductId&varSorting=ASC&varColumns=3&f=1&mtype=2

A misting timer item #3356 will cost about $100.00 and can be found at

http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/index.cfm?searchflag=1&page=_search&s=3356&PageNum_newsearchQuery=1&varShowPer_custom=12&varOrderby=ProductId&varSorting=ASC&varColumns=3&f=1&mtype=2&enter.x=10&enter.y=10

I am thinking one or two mist heads per 5 gallon bucket would suffice.
I would recommend that temperatures not exceed 72 degrees f, because you can literally cook the roots. Anything over 72 degrees will cause the plant to go into stress and then it weakens the plant and makes it more susceptible to disease. You want to see nice fine fuzzy whitish roots. If you notice the roots are dark brown, black or smell bad it is a good indication that there is an issue in the roots of that plant. Also if you can lightly pull on the root and the outer casing comes off and leaves a thin thread like root behind, that root has rotted and is dead.
The submersible pump needs to be magnetic driven and produces less than 20 gallons per hour. An aquarium pump is best and can be found at most department stores or on the internet (ebay, amazon) for under $50.00.
Next the rooting chamber. Questions so far?

Dave

Did I just blow everones mind with my rant??? lol I promise there should be at most 3 more posts on bubbles unless we have questions and disscussion. I hope I didn't run anyone off..... I know i took a shower sniff sniff. hmmm

Your doing great. Keep up the good work.

Garyt

You haven't lost me yet Dave. 'course it helps that I have done a lot of bubbling. lol,
And also bought a lot from Charley's.

Jeanette

Take a look at this site. Every thing you need to know about tc.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/tisscult/microprop/microprop.html

Gary

Looks good.Thank you for the link, I will add it to my faves. Sorry but it might be a day or so for next installment. Had a tough day today and dr appt tomorrow.
Dave

Wait Jenette, I'm not on any more co ops.!!! Please say it ain't so!
This is my last one for about a hundred years. Take that long for my eyeballs to uncross from counting!!!

Question. Since it is getting cooler, can I still root some stuff?

So for the pump, if I use a 10 gallon tank and a pump for the 50 gal ones, will that work, or too much?

Garyt, they are too technical for me. I would rather Dave talk in a language I can understand. Thanks tho. Maybe some day Dave will have us at that technical level we would understand them.

LOL, Don't panic Lorraine, I was just browsing thru the co-ops.

That was my problem with cuttings Lorraine. I think when the cold sets in that the sap runs to the roots of the plants and the cuttings toughen up. LOL, again, that is my layman's terms. Am I close Dave? Lorraine, that is why I wanted my dip n grow quick. I did get some Bacopas to root using that set-up you drew up for us Lorraine.

Jeanette

Howdy:
Yes it gets tougher when the temps lower. Lorraine I would guess you have about another month to month and a half to root stuff. Do you have any heated grow matts? I was reading one post where they were using the rope christmas lights as heating cables. As long as they are rated for out door use they should help but I am not sure if they might get too hot. I have been closing my little greenhouse up at night to keep the temps up. I am planning to fill 1 gallon milk jugs with water to hold heat and disapate it out over night during cold spells. I also put my GH up against a brick wall that will hold heat as well. You are shooting for 68 to 72 I believe is optimum temp for cuttings. I will have to double check that one and get back to you. I know I can probably get one or 2 more batches of cuttings going if I need to before I need to hunker down and play the warm the plants game. Right now I open up my greenhouse in the morning and close it at night. its getting down in the 60's but tomorrow its suposed to be in the lower 50's so I will keep it buttoned up longer. Last year I managed to grow a begonia in my unheated house. now thie house was against a south facing brickwall and the garage was in front of it so it blocked the north wind. but still with the ice storm we had I think it did great. I have already started grouping my plants together by the greenhouse to keep them warmer than all spread out and exposed. I had hoped to have some topsoil to bury some of my pots in but thats not gonna happen. If you are trying to winter over containerized plants try to bury the pot to planting depth and keep the plants watered well on warmer days. Lorraine you will have some of the same issues I have 60's and 70's one day and that afternoon bammm its snowing and we can get a foot if it hits right and its gone in 3 or 4 days sometimes. Has everyone fertilized for the winter???? I try to use a slow release this time of year to make everyone survive the winter as best I can. Ok Tomorrow back to aeroponics... I think... I will be on and off most of today as my shoulder is giving me fits and typing doesn't help. I need to check into the speak and auto type. and win the lottery...lol ... Here is a picture of my GH as I get ready for winter. Yea I know its a mess but it seems to be last on the list. not sure why.

My question is I have an aquarium pump and several bubble stones and bars, but would I use a different type of pump for the misting nozzle? Thanks, I am suddenly feeling a bit dense.

Yes the misting nozzels are a submersable pump that will take up the dissolved oxygen solution and spray it on the root zone. What you want is a magnetic driven pump. I seem to feel the more air you can put into the solution the more will dissolve and be available to the new roots. It would be sweet if you could reach the saturation point on the dissolved air. Its kind of like mixing sugar in tea. there is a point where you can add as much sugar as you want it just wont dissolve into the tea because its saturated with sugar.
You are not dense. this is a bit difficult to wrap your head arround on the first read. It took me a couple of rereads to finally see the oh duhhh. but I can be dense sometimes. It might be a good weekend for garage sales for some of the stuff. Lorraine had a lady asking about stuff for wintering over shelves and humidity pebbles. I told her we are all scavangers at heart. we try to make do with what we can and try to streach the dollar. I guess scavangers was a bit harsh and I didn't say scavangers... i said frugal... Sorry the idea just hit me as its been beautiful this week. Please don't take offense to any of this anyone. I am off a bit today. 3 hours sleep last night and can't sleep today either. I will probably pass out for 16 hours tonight....Just runnin off the top of my head.
Dave

Do we have a resident datura expert in the group? My question is this. My plant apears to have bit the dust. being one that does not give up easily i put the pot on a shelf in the greenhouse. When I watered today I noticed the pot was aproaching dry so I watered it. I got a plume of brown like dust. I am thinking mushroom but I have not seen any in my plants. I doubt its fernspores. Any idea on what it might be? Do daturas put off a spore like dust?
Any help is apreciated
Dave

Dave - they sure dont... they get hard seed pods.

I hate to think what it might be so I will just put down some fungicide. Its restricted in an area that I can treat easily. Just wanted to make sure I was on the right track. i don't need a new fungus a mung us...Thanks Mitch
Dave

I hear you there - fungi... yuck.

I love to see that those datura seed pods have started to pop open and I can yank it off and get the seeds. I just wish I knew why some pods have little warts and the others have spikes.

Ok, I'm lost about the misting thing. I'm gonna go back up and read the post, probably a good idea huh? I'm sure it's there, like the lantana pictures were when I was asking for some.

Hope your shoulders are better, Dave.

Thank you for the warm thoughts... must be bad I'm feeling cranky and on the verge of mean and thats not my style so I think its time to hunker down and sleep... hmm a month??? naaa

Wake up for a minute Dave!!! Did you say you give your plants fertilizer for the winter??? All of the plants, or just container plants. The last couple of years I tossed a shovel full of steer manure and one of alfalfa pellets on each of my perennials and then covered it with compost. Don't know why I did it, I just did. Didn't seem to hurt them any, they did pretty good this year.

Did I do ok? Jeanette

Jeanette:
Perfect. Yes I try to get my plants well fed before we get into the depths of winter. Your manures are better than anything I could find on the shelves of any store. Just make sure the manure is composted and not hot... Hot being fresh and also gives off some heat. My Grandfather used to use elephant manure and some lion. He lived in sarasota the winter home of ringling circus... He said his banannas were the best in the whole state... LOL. What you want to do is have the plant nicely fed going into winter as well as not stressed for water. Here in oklahoma and for all you texans we get wacky weather. you just have to experience it to understand it.
Dave

Ain't it the truth!! Ok, so I just put manure right on top of the soil around the plants, then compost? How much manure. I'm doing the compost thing, but was afraid to put manure right on top of the ground. Was going to mix some more with the compost, but it has lots already.

So, what do I do? See, told you I was a "beginner"

Well Lorraine, like I said, I just threw a shovelful of each on each plant. I didn't even bother to scratch it in. If I had had the energy I would have done that. If I get that done this year I will hopefully feel like putting all of the straw left from my strawbale garden on top of that. They should really like all of that. LOL

Jeanette

Lorraine how fresh is your manure? You want to make sure its sat for a while to reduce down the heat from it. If you use fresh you can really burn stuff up. If you have a source and a place to store it, make a pile for next year and then just use it next year and build a new pile next year that way you always have it on hand to use and you know exactly how old it is.
Jeanette how old is the straw? Fresh straw can give you new little seedlings of who know what. When I use straw I like to have it lay out and open so all the seeds can either be eaten by the birds or die off. I know it sounds like a lot of trouble but its worth it in the end. Have a good evening everyone. Dave

The straw is decomposed Dave. That is the first thing we do in strawbale gardening is spend a couple of weeks breaking it down. We do get a few little oat or wheat plants once in a while. But on the whole it isn't bad.''

I think Lorraine is probably doing the same as me and buying bagged steer manure. Or, maybe not.

Jeanette