They are birds of principle and have very firm opinions:0)
Free-range chickens & supplemental feeding
They sure do! The youngsters are a little better. At least they stay out longer and forage a little better. Must be because we hatched most of them out ourselves. Plus, we added the sex-links to the youngsters. So, they stay out with them.
I am thinking that the little roos we got from ideal with the guineas are BOs. They are looking more and more like them. I might be able to keep one or two if they turn out to be not aggressive. I had said that I wouldn't have another, but might change my mind.
GG
lol u cant resist them
Josh, the reason I'm hesitant to keep a BO rooster is because I had one that attacked me every time I went out to get eggs. I used to carry a stick with me to ward him off and eventually blinded him with it but he still didn't stop. This kept up for about a year until he attacked my DH, and then he went to "camp freezer". We had to cut him in half to put him in the pot when we cooked him. So, I am kind of leery about the BOs.
GG
dont let one bad experience ruin the chance for a new roo
Of course, I do have about 7 BAs chicks that I hatched out this year. But we want a larger chicken than the BAs. So I am hoping to use the BO roos for breeding with the BA and sex-link hens we have. Hopefully that would give me a meatier bird. If not, then I am going to order BO hens next spring.
GG
cool
The idea of a sustainable flock is interesting. No one on this forum has mentioned in the last few years that they do this ... it is a goal of some (me) but few ever get close. It is an extremely unusual method of raising poultry to say the least. The MAJOR obstacle is predation. Without a really secure fence ... the birds will disappear. A wholly sustainable flock requires an area void of most predators. Shelton, WA ... does not fit that description. The idea of locking up chickens in an area ... prevents them from foraging widely. They'll eat the flora in the fenced area down to nothing and then you either give them more space or feed them more. Unless you have several acres ... they'll not have enough bugs, seeds ... etc. to forage so that you do not have to supplement them with feed (which voids the description wholly sustainable). If you're supplying feed ... the birds don't or won't forage to any degree worth mentioning. Kelly in Moxee
Hmm ... I've never lived with chickens, and it shows! It seems I'm stating things a little too simplisticly.
I don't expect we'll have a wholly sustainable flock, but we do wan't to explore ways to reduce the cash cost of keeping chickens. I'm sure predators are going to take their share, although there are several flocks in our area and atleast one of them runs free during the day. The same people let a few rabbits run free and the buggers are still alive & kicking!
The suggestions for home-grown food sources are exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again. :-)
Kelly--have you investigated the Fayoumi? Its not what I'm looking for, but it seems to fit the bill for you--being nearly feral. There are several research programs working to incorporate its desirable traits with those of more domestic breeds. Maybe a cross to achieve higher cold tolerance?
Kelly, you question the idea of a wholly sustainable chicken flock. It may not be wholly sustainable without supplementing the feed, but if one raises their own feed, then why wouldn't it be wholly sustainable. Of course then it would have to be called a wholly sustainable farm, wouldn't it?
GG
Each morning I move my silkies to a 1/2 acre fenced in garden, it is actually divided into 3 sections with plenty of mowed grass, then there are weeds, tall fescue.. not to mention strawberry plants.. lots of baby grasshoppers, regular bugs.. plenty of japanese beetles.. and includes a nice sand pit for "bathing" )use to be the beach for the turtles that lived there)
Anyway, they go to the "park" everyday and stay there until 6pm when I open the gate and they slowely stroll back to their hen-house. I give them plenty of water and do supply them with some feed... but I have noticed they have not been eating the feed.. almost not at all..
There are 8 of them total and I have only used 2 scoops of food this week, so I am a little worried, they look good, they are all busy and seem healthy.. no ill looking effects..
So should I be concerned or shall I wait to be concerned till somebody falls over? Are they getting all they need through the bugs, flowers, sand and grasses? Has the grain/feed become their "dessert" instead of their diet?
Mine aren't eating much either, frans and they only forage in the backyard. I think if they are happy and active, they are fine. Mine sure go for any tomatoes or corn I throw their way--I think they are spoiled not starving:0)
I think you're right granny--in that "sustainable" is the sort of buzz word that has no single accepted meaning or application. Generally sustainable farming/agriculture refers to any system that works to maintain human and humane food production without degrading the environment. Salatin's pasture-based food production would be an excellent example of sustainable agriculture--though I don't think he would ever use that word. It is certainly one that requires a high level of human intervention. This site gives a nice cross section of definitions of sustainable agriculture rattling around:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Sustainable+Agriculture&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
My last employer formed a division to encourage "sustainable agriculture" among their growers and irritated the farmers no end:0)
Maybe Kelly is referring to chickens that are essentially feral and thus have a "self-sustaining" population? Since the evolution of chickens from the Red Jungle Fowl appears to have involved at least a mutualistic relationship with humans, it might be hard to get back true independence from all human support without losing what has made the chicken so valued: beauty, ease of interaction with people, abundant eggs, and meat production.
Domestication--gotta love it!LOL
This message was edited Jul 22, 2008 3:11 AM
Hi MZ Weazelle. I was just reading about your desire to keep a few chicks. Then I enjoyed many of the suggestions, and Ideas that so many of the good folks shared. there are plenty of readily attained varieties of birds that are very suitable to your area of the Northwest. I keep forty-seven birds, they freerange for the most part from sun up to sun down. We have lots of Hawks and eagles, plus lots of coyotes, possums, skunks and some mountain lions, So far I have not lost any birds to any of those predators. As long as you have a good secure coop for the nights you should not have to worry that much. As far as the weather goes, it's a little coullder here in Ferndale, wa. than Shelton during the winter and I have always enjoyed good egg laying right through the winter even without using lights for added hours. I do however agree with the Moxee bird raiser that you are going to have to use some supplemental food for your birds, unless you are willing to spend a lot of long hours raising and developing your own feed. Good luck Haystack.
lol mine are eating lik crazy
You just don't have good bugs down there lucky. lol
well thats not fair :( i think i will move to the U.S now
ok.. we'll be waiting at the gate ;-)
cat, interesting definitions. i would just call it a self contained system, without added inputs or excessive outputs...
lucky, good luck with that!
Tf--right now I bet you think your "inputs" are excessive and their "outputs" not so much! :0) How many do you actually have right now? No, No, I don't want to know--it will make me look like a slacker and then the CF will visit!
This message was edited Jul 22, 2008 12:04 PM
Anyone, I've had the Fayoumi breed... They fly like pheasants but look like rats.
A wholly sustainable flock ... in my mind was one that exists on its own without feed supplemented. My Game Fowl ... can not do so ... due to predators. Predators eat 90+% of the chicks unless we pen them up till they are 2.5 months old. I am in an area with far far fewer predators around than around Shelton. Raccoons are everywhere on the West side of the state .... and around Shelton they are as thick as anywhere in the state. If anyone allows their flock out to forage in that area .... the raccoons will eat them ALL in the day or night. A fence in Shelton is an absolute requirement and they'll need a babysitter to keep out the raccoons during the day and they'll need to be locked up tighter than a drum at night. I have friends in Puget Sound area and dealing with raccoons is a nightmare. MzWeazelle will learn ... real fast about predators. Probably have the entire flock wiped out more than once ... till the "holes" are filled. If you have a fence ... you'll have to supplement their diet and the self sustaining idea is "out the window". There are a number of good foraging "fat chicken breeds". They can't fly worth spit to evade predators ... that's why they need a fence. Good luck but the wholly sustainable idea is kinda unrealistic ... especially if its a flock for 2 people ... you're basically aiming to keep a flock of 6 birds. I had a friend-acquaintance in Kitsap County lose 65 extremely high quality show chickens in 1 night to a raccoon. They were Large Fowl. Can you imagine losing 65 birds in 1 night? He had a pretty great chicken coop area with one opening that got lose ...and the predator got in. Kelly in Moxee
I love language! Does anyone remember Humpty Dumpty in "Alice in Wonderland"? There were no chickens that I remember, although I think there may have been a duck somewhere and Humpty was an egg. Anyway, Humpty Dumpty had this wonderful explanation of the relationship between the user and his words:
"There's glory for you!"
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,' " Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is, " said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty. "which is to be master—that's all."
That passage has even given rise to a popular term: http://www.wordspy.com/words/HumptyDumptylanguage.asp
This message was edited Jul 22, 2008 12:42 PM
Lot of our nursery rhimes originated from history .Humpty Dumpty was about the Roman Empire . 'Ring Around The Rosies ' came from the Holocaust .If I remember correctly the jews kept rose peddles in their pockets for some kind of seret ID.Three Little Pigs came from a NT Bible verse .
Catscan,
I was trying to use the words "sustainable" in a manner that seemed to be most representative of its origin and, of course in tune with the original post by MzWeazelle. If we go back and read her post ...she clearly wrote .... "without supplemental feeding". So in other words she was asking about a situation of a "wholly sustainable flock" ate nothing but bugs, seeds and flora without the feeding from humans .... as I have been posting suggestions about. It is crystal clear that my reply posts have been "on topic" and not some off the wall usage or running off on an obtuse tangent to create a singular usage that ONLY I would understand.
Back in the 1840's Jonathan Swift advocated a solution to the Irish starvation problem ... he though they should eat their children. His idea was not all that ill rec'd by the British population as a whole ... appalling you might think? You might also be wondering what does this have to do with Lewis Carrol, Alice in Wonderland and Humpty Dumpty .... the answer .... absolutely NOTHING ... except Lewis Carroll and Jonathan Swift were contemporary writers of children's literature. I just thought a diversion from the initial topic being discussed would be of interest to some.
Me .... I like to read real suggestions to real problems folks are asking to be solved in this forum .... not necessarily fairly tale literature or unrelated solutions to topics that are irrelevant. The topic of MzWeazelle was (drumroll) .... WITHOUT SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING ... the caps are for the reading impaired only. LOL .... Kelly in Moxee
OMG!!! LOL : 0 P "Everbody was Kung Fu fighting...."
no HD language allowed here LOL
edited to add it seem we all AGREE that it can't be done, and have offered ways for her to do it sustainably as a farm unit, since the chickens cannot sustain themselves...
This message was edited Jul 22, 2008 1:19 PM
Kelly--I was referring to the plasticity of language in referrence to the use of the term "sustainable". What are you talking about?
LOL, Kelly i don't think you were being accused of being a "humpty dumpty"... or being off topic, i think she was using the off topic nursery rhymes to explain how our language has become so plastic... read the link she provided, pretty cool...
i still agree with Kelly in Moxee, and everyone, that you just can't expect any numbe ro fflock to survie without having to provide feed and water, shelter, prote tion from predators, etc... goats maybe, not chickens... they are domesticated!
tf
TF,
I do not know what HD language means. Please fill in the blank!
Patch ... I get your drift ... I'm just having fun trying to get the point hammed in place ... not being mean or nasty.
I have a love for the "fat chickens" ... but I do not believe they can ever be capable of free ranging .... Welsumers, Orpington, Ameraucana, NJ Giants, RIR, Cochin, Wyandottes + the 60 other breeds I used to keep. Free range to me is close to mythical to me. I'd be delighted if my Game Fowl were clever enough to avoid predators adequately for my flock to reach "wholly sustainable" or without supplemental feeding. It would be great to be honest. If I get a fence adequate to keep out the predators at night ... I believe my Game Fowl could reach that aspired to level of perfection. I have close to 3 acres that are well fenced ..... with a bit more reinforcement ... we can keep the chicks inside with their mothers and allow the adults to fly over the fence. We might lose a few birds annually to coyotes but I honestly believe the mink, skunk, least weasel, fox, martin, fisher, feral cats, loose dogs, coyotes could all be fenced out. Raccoons are the ONLY predator .... I can not control. However, I believe with a few well placed traps ... we can keep them from trying to climb the fence if they ever wander near. I'd hate to have to resort to an electrified fence. Kelly in Moxee
well, read catscans link, it have a definition for the new term "Humpty Dumpty language" i thought everyone read links???
pretty funny that a new word in our dictionary would refer to the elasticity of our language, and come from a novel that became a childs fairy tale.
honestly, if you do a find on this thread like i did, it seem i first introduced the word sustainable [leave it to tf!], and then you adn i discussed it, then GG chimed in, then cat saw the whole interesting "debate" and realized it was Humptry Dumpty language... so if we didn't have HD language here, there would be no debate. even the author of this thread admitted it coudln't be done without supplemental feeding. she just wanted some ideas, and i think she has her money's worth!
tf
not sure i understand Patchouli, but i guess it has to do with that new movie?
Catscan, I missed or skipped the point of plasticity ... so my post was about being on topic misreading or not paying attention. Reading comprehension can be so narrow or wide and if a word is skipped ... the topic can be irrelevant no matter how well intended. No offense intended by me of course. I was just trying to nail down the feeding or not issue and staying on topic and of course I though the topic was being a diverted by some. Not necessarily by you but certainly by anyone who suggested supplemental food. Kelly in Moxee
TF, Kung Foo Panda is the Jack Black movie ... not Kung Foo Fighting the song.
Patch was referring to the "sparring of words" that appeared to be happening. I probably was guilty of overkill or at least giving the appearance of fighting with words.
After 5 years of fussing with "fat breeds" .... I'm ready to divest myself. They all require far too much attention for anyone but a true poultry lover. None of them can free range without an enormous amount of help from humans. I'll be leaving here before long and I don't want to just drop a bunch of fat chickens into someone's lap. The Game Fowl are almost self sustaining .... I just need a better fence to keep out the predators and a few well placed but semi-portable nest boxes.
The breeds that sorta interest me as possible "WHOLLY SUSTAINABLE" are Venda & Ovambo which are ref'd on Barry's ....... feathersite.com
Kelly in Moxee
cool, i iwll check those breeds out, i love more info... but do they lay?
as patchouli will tell you [and frans] i am not up on songs or movies...
should i look up a word on wordspy.com that also means sparring of words? LOL
tf
I don't know, Kelly---fluffy, inarticulate, desulatory, even acerebral --maybe. But reading impaired--that's harsh!:0)
This is so hard
humpty dumpty - no eggs
alice - no rabbit hole
tf - no fairy
what next.. the did away with Santa on the frugal thread... ;-(
oh, poor frans, her fairy tale world is falling apart. i think she needs to BE a cf rep for a little while to help restore her faith...
Frans--don't look into her eyes! Turn off the computer and back away!
get a grip tf... baby goat this week... been busy outside building... thank goodness the hot weather gave us a break.... I found 39 feet of brand new chain linc fence.. dh was pouting cuz we can't afford anything "new" right now... lol.. told him just pic up some of the trash in his workshop... everything under it is new!
DH was complaining last week because he didn't have the materials for the shed roof, and wasn't sure of the pitch... so i drew some schematics for him, well rough drawings LOL... so now he is just whining about hte screws, i haven't been to town to pick up, and threatening to have a paying job somewhere else for a few days.... sigh, i will miss him LOL... he has three and a half weeks to finish...
your baby goat needs baby chickens to clean up after it!
Illinois, of all states, needs a cf rep...
Poor MzWeazelle--we did hijack your thread.
Letting your chickens forage for plants, seeds and insects can reduce the cost of supplemental feeding 30-60%. And then you might find a good site describing how to grow the bulk of the remainder. I think there is another thread on that.
Here is a well-thought-of book on range or pasture management of livestock--I think you may need cattle--but then so much more fun! And the milk would help with being self-sufficient.
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0961780738/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
I envy you having the land and opportunity to try so many things!