Funky swamp pots....suggestions?

I think I sadly know the answer BUT - I have 2 LARGE pots on my front porch. They do have a large drainage hole at the bottom but that wasn't enough, obviously, to keep up w/all that rain we had. I can't even begin to describe the scent...safe to say it is NOT pleasant. This so doesn't make me a happy camper. I did mist it w/peroxide last week but I think that may have been akin to putting a bandaid on something requiring sutures. Luckily the only thing in them currently is Petunias. So I guess the question is...will this resolve itself or do I need to dump the pots completely and put in fresh soil - replant the petunias and add the others that have been patiently waiting to be put in? OR is there another solution? Thank you, thank you....my nose thanks you!! And yes....additional holes will be added to these pots on their sides and bottom.

I'd dump the soil & replace with new - I change the soil in the planters every other year if possible - having the "swamp thingy" on my front steps would oh so not be appealing:-)

You could try watering with a 10% peroxide solution (meaning over-the-counter hydrogen peroxide mixed 1-10 with water).

And see Tapla's post on container gardening -- if you can force a string in the hole in the bottom, that will help wick away the extra moisture.

It is going to rain again today though -- maybe put a cover on to avoid extra moisture?

Hmmmm wicking...good idea...probably after I replace this funk though...grrrr...I had already dumped out the top half and replaced with fresh soil - lovin' the rain BUT!!!
Happy -forgot you'd mentioned Passi's in a thread some where...I'm getting extra's popping up various places - if you want one dug - when they come up just say the word.

I'd love one -- but not until next year! Many thanks! I'm way behind this year!

Chantell, do you have rocks in the bottom to help with drainage?

There seems to be mixed opinions on that now...I keep reading where they say NOT to do that any more....although in THIS case it would've been to my benefit - as it would've kept the soil from compacting around the drainage hole at the bottom

I think Tapla takes the position that drainage is worth with rocks at the bottom.

"Tapla" ???? Huh? Who?

That was my reaction. LOL Who or what is Tapla, Happy?

Even if you don't put a layer of rocks in the bottom, you have to put something to prevent exactly what happened - the soil clogging up the drainage hole.

Are they plastic pots? The other option is to switch to clay, which will let some of the moisture out of the pot itself.

Yeah they're the huge plastic ones...which I really do prefer with what I grow in them...I think more holes and some gravel are a must...surprised the petunias are still alive - God bless them!

See http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/527353/ and http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/719569/. Tapla is the poster who recommends wicking.

(After mulling it over for a while, I've starting using Tapla's formula on some occasions, and I like it. I found sources for turface if you are interested.)

Tapla writes (just read the last paragraph if you want to skim):

"There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8) inch.. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will surpass the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". The smaller the size of the particles in a soil, the greater the height of the PWT.

If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This saturated area of the pot is where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems frequently begin due to a lack of aeration. Water and nutrient uptake are also compromised by lack of air in the root zone. Keeping in mind the fact that the PWT height is soil dependent and has nothing to do with height or shape of the container, we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers will always have a higher percentage of unsaturated soil than squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must have oxygen at the root zone in order to maintain normal root function.

A given volume of large soil particles has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential.

When we add a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does though, conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area for water to be attracted to in the soil above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water “perches”.

I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the saturated soil to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or allow it to contact soil below the container where it can be absorbed. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots."

This message was edited May 27, 2008 4:20 PM

GREAT articles...so....where does one find "wicking" or is it not that specific with regard to material?
Wondering if I was being lazy...I generally will add "grit" (2 sizes) to ALL my soil mixes - not that, that would have prevented this - it was simply too much rain in too short a time frame. The wicking sounds like a good suggestion.

This message was edited May 27, 2008 4:32 PM

I think a shoelace will work. Or a mop string, if you have the old-fashioned kind of mop.

Ahh sweet!!! Ok - thank you!!

chantelle,

One recomendation I would have is to elevate the pots so they don't sit right on your deck/patio/ whatever floor. You could use pieces of brick or stones. I just feel the sheer weight of the pot filled with heavy soil and sitting flush on the flooring itself deters drainage.
Another thought---for the bottom 1/4 of soil in the pot--add a lot of coarsePearlite.

Another thing you can do is put some clay saucers, or other not-so-deep dishes, upside down inside the empty pot. I wiyld elevate these also with maybe pieces of bamboo stakes so the water can flow under tham and drain out.

Some people put a large pot, upside down, inside these huge pots to:
1..make it not so heavy
2..lessen the volume of soil you need to put in there
3..Facilitate drainage.

As for wicks--you can buy heavy wicks wherever patio torches are sold. They come in a package of 2--I think....Big, fat ones....HD has them--as does Lowes, I am sure.....

Gita

ALL great ideas, Gita!! I have to go by Lowes in the morning so I will look for the wicks and I'm thinking those clay pots (wide but shallow) would be great for the suggestion of upside down IN the larger one. These are actually decent pots bought AT Lowes - they're already elevated as they sit up on "legs" at each corner....there was just SO much rain...I'm sure everyone dealt with it - glad it was the pots and not my basement as was with so many. Picked up new soil and bags of perlite for tomorrow's "surgery" - told ex to please bring by the dolly tomorrow....can only imagine how heavy the stink pits are...ugh!!

Chantelle,

One of the entries (by X) in this Post addresses putting things in the bottom of large pots. I forgot to mention them---empty soda bottles.....Small ones--I would think....capped!
Styrofoam packing peanuts work too..

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/633569/

The idea IS--NOT to have these huge amounts of soil in these HUGE pots. It never gets to dry out and gets all wet and stagnant. Plants' roots need to breathe!
Like--Petunias need-- maybe 6" of soil.....12" should be max for just about any potted annuals.

While you are dumping all the soil out anyway--why not drill a few extra holes in the bottom for good measure? You really DO NOT need all that soil! Try to do some of the suggested methods of lessening the volume.

Gita

Absolutely will, Gita...ends up saving me money on the soil too!!! Hmmm....and i have a bag of packing peanuts too...
THAT is too funny...that's the thread I bumped up last night!!!! Should've read it a tad more thoroughly eh? I was more concerned with the potting up of the Datura

This message was edited May 27, 2008 11:22 PM

The best soil I bought once was Fafard, highly recommended by a local guy (Alan summers) It was more coarse, like it had little chunks of bark in it. Now (last year) I read taplas houseplant soils post. I started mixing some pine bark really fine, with soil. I like it. I can say that some of my plant experience does go in line with what tapla says.
Now if I could EVER persuade my mother to let me buy her new soil--AAGGG Refuses to dump any old soil, then is sad when plants struggle...

Anything will work for wick, I saved some baby lemons by wicking with paper towels. Watre would not drip out until I wicked them, then drip drip drip.
thanks for mentioning mor head- we have one Addy just shredded now I'll salvage some super wicks from it!

Here's what i do with last year's soils from all my pots. Don't exactly want to use the same soils in my new plantings--even though sometimes I just amend it really well and use it again. I am on my second container of "Dynamite" pellets....

Generally, I dump all the "used" soil from pots and containers in one of those big tubs with rope handles and I mix it into my garden beds, as needed, where I am planting new plants in the Spring. It loosens up the soil nicely as most dirt in beds can use some "fluffing up"....I tend to accumulate these "used" soils from pots that I use for cuttings, dug up plants, dead HB's, etc.

Sally--where, or how, do you get small bits of bark to mix into container soils? Do you think a bag of bark mulch can be smithereened in some way?
I know that one can buy small bags of bark bits in the Houseplant Dept, but that would run into money if one wanted to use it in all the soils for all the containers.

Yes--Fafard potting soil was always touted by Allan. Where did you find it?

Gita

Bougainvillea Arch in the Longwood Conservatory....

Large bags of pine bark fines cost under $15 -- I don't know the size off-hand, but they would be stored with the big bags (sand, manure, etc.) at the nursery. They are sometimes marketed as "soil conditioner."

I'll show my ignorance here (LOL) what is the difference between "pine bark fines" and the mulch ~ chunks or shredded?

I think it is screened through a medium screen -- the pieces are fairly small. Not quite shredded, where the pieces can be large but not chunky. Definitely not chunky.

Happy,

Perhaps that is what is sold at HD as "Clay Breaker" soil conditioner. I have picked up one of those big bags and they are very light--like a bag of mulch. Have to find a broken bag and investigate the contents...

I will be going to work at 3PM. Will waltz through the Garden gate and see.....

Gita

Chantell, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I'll bet one big problem with those pots is that you just have petunias in them and they aren't taking up enough of the water. Plant something bigger with a bigger root system that drinks up more of the water and the pots won't get so soggy. Maybe a couple of little topiary trees or some cannas.

Yes Diane....generally I'd have my nicotiana in the center already...but they're just seedlings (grew them myself this year) and the weather had been too cool to just throw them out there...plus ALL that rain would've destroyed them had I put them in the pot. Going to move them up into the cow pots this weekend and then probably in the big boy pots in 2 weeks.

I've been reading Happy's thread about her drainage problems and at my old house, they had done a pretty effective job of clearing up a standing water problem by planting a weeping willow. Not the same as stormwater but I understand it was a swamp back there after it rained and I never had that problem at all.

Hart: I don't think I can use a weeping willow in the city: the roots get into pipes.

Gita: The pine bark fines are definitely different from Clay Breaker, which I think is gypsum. They are usually sold as "Soil Conditioner" or just "Pine Bark Fines." I usually get them from American Plant, but I don't think they have a Baltimore store.

Here is more info: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0411141417099.html

and http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1015421832437.html

and http://www.mortonproducts.com/page.cfm/1481

and http://www.mulchanderosioncontrol.com/SandhillsMulch&Erosion/products%5Cdefault.htm.

Tapla has pictures of what it should look like. It is great stuff, and not especially expensive! I am a convert.

I lived in the city. I had pipes. As long as you're 30 feet away from your water or sewer pipes, you won't have any problems.

Of course this was in the back yard, which was well away from any pipes, and not the front and it really doesn't help with stormwater runoff.

But in my case, the problem is between the two houses -- right by my furnace and laundry room. So I have reason to think the roots could cause problems. And aside from that, it'd be right in the middle of a garden area where the last thing I need is more shade!

I don't think it would help you at all anyway, Happy, although it isn't very likely your water and sewer pipes come out of the side of the house. They would be connecting with the main lines which are usually under the street in front of your house.

This worked for standing water after rain that would be there for days after a storm, not stormwater runoff. That's not nearly so simple. In fact, your locality most likely has laws concerning where your stormwater can go if you do build something to move where it flows. Zoning laws now require that builders address stormwater issues during construction too.

I checked a poked-through bag of the "Clay-Breaker Soil Conditioner" at my HD during my lunch hour. It seemed to be very fine pieces of bark--but, on the bag it says--"with Gypsum". It is meant to be used in heavy clay soils to make it more arable.

From my "education" at HD--Gypsum is a lime-like substance that does NOT alter the PH of the soil. SO? What, if any, would be the problem if this product was added to a Potting Mix for containers?????
Anyone?????

Gita

I used pine bark sold as very small chunk mulch, mostly small enough to use and reall cheap, from franks going out of business.
Can't remember what gypsum does, think it breaks a bond between clay particles but anyway if the bag has no statements about altering pH then I'm guessing OK. But fine pine might be cheaper.

If you have access to peanut shells, such as a restaurant that hands out free unshelled peanuts, that is a fantastic soil conditioner for clay soil. And it's free if you can get them to save the shells for you. Five Guys is one restaurant that has them.

Gypsum is pretty neutral so it doesn't do anything to the soil ph, Sally. It's a different form of calcium than lime, Gita, so it doesn't raise the ph. If anything, since it has sulfur, it might lower it a bit. I don't know why you would want to add it to potting soil, though, since it's main use is to loosen heavy soil. It doesn't add any organic material or nutrients except calcium I guess.

hart--I was just trying to find anything that had pine fines in it--after reading that sally liked to use them.
I am not going to use them. I usually vacuum-shred my leaves in the fall and bag them up and stick them under some high evergreens in the back of the yard. By Spring, they are so-so on their way to be semi-composted. Then I dig hand fulls of these in my beds and plant my flowers. Sometimes, I even use them for mulch.

I have planted your Bellflowers. Waiting for them to perk up.......:o( Will they????

Gita

Hart: I love the idea of peanut shells! I guess you'd have to wash them to get of any salt.

Gita: I think the clay buster is expensive -- that's the only reason I wouldn't use it for potted plants. I use gypsum all the time in my nasty clay soil.

Those stems might not perk up but they should start putting out new leaves eventually. I potted those before anything else, though, and I would think if the leaves were going to die they would have done so by now. I tried to find pieces that didn't have flower stems on them since they're getting ready to bloom.

My father had the most wonderful mulch made by running all the fall leaves through a shredder. And of course as it breaks down, it makes leaf mold which is great for your soil.

I actually have Joyce bring me the bags of grass clippings from mowing her lawn. She was throwing them away! Grass and shredded leaves both make terrific additions to the compost pile. Her lawn mowing guy probably thinks I'm nuts. LOL

Just thought of something on the bellflowers - wondering whether they do badly in acid soil. They do like it pretty alkaline apparently. Might want to give them a little sprinkle of lime if your soil is very acid. However, they did fine at my old house. The soil was fairly acid.

hart,

I have no idea of the Ph of my soil! I have NEVER tested it as long as I have lived here--38 years! But--I will sprinkle a bit of lime around them for good measure,,,

I have used a mulching mower for YEARS! LOVE my Toro "Personal Pace" mower. It is self-propelled, but at the pace you walk. I never have any grass clippings to collect. And, NO! it does not create thatch.

Gita

Just saw this... with the really big pots, where you don't need the whole depth of the pot for planting anyway, putting gravel (or better yet, packing peanuts) on the bottom is just fine. Yes, the level of the "perched water table" will be higher... but it still won't get up into the root zone of your petunias.

I do like Tapla's wick idea, think it makes a lot of sense. I've used strips cut from panty hose as wicks in little African violet pots... I'll bet you could just take a whole leg from an old pair of hose and use it as a wick in a big pot. I've also used strips cut from a microfiber towel. Don't use cotton or other organic material -- it'll rot and/or clog up with algae pretty quickly.