Bokashi (fermented food/garden waste) Composting Discussion

Hi Mibus2,
I have been thinking I was nuts since '96 when I first learned about this from my in-laws. Now, it is my life. I was actually asked once, "what do you do when you're not "EM-ing"?" I laughed and said, "nothing."

We might have to start another topic thread on EM1 since that is where it all started.

Go ahead and start a new thread!

mmm EMEric maybe we need to talk then I need to learn alot more.

Eric, thank you for posting about using the Bokashi/EM in areas where the ground freezes. That doesn't happen in my area (at least not yet!) so it's good to have someone with experience give suggestions.

A separate thread on using the EM liquid cultures would be helpful.

Hi G_M,
You're welcome. I now have experience with desert gardening with EM1 and bokashi since I now live in Tucson. It has been a real challenge to grow things in Tucson. Some things like melons and peppers grow great out here. The best trick I learned out here was to build a canopy to protect the plants from the intense sun.

Another difficult thing is finding lost of organic matter... I used to use lots of manure (cow, goat, sheep, rabbit, etc). I also don't have a truck that I can carry manure to my place. I know the Tree of Life in Patagonia, which is a raw vegan retreat, practices what they call "veganic" agriculture. This means they don't use any animal manures. They basically make all plant and food wastes into bokashi. This include lots of cover cropping too. If anyone has ever heard of "Nature Farming" they will know what I am talking about. The first bits of this become know to the masses when Fukuoka's "One Straw Revolution" was translated into English.

How does one start a new thread? I don't see any place that states "start new thread" or "start new forum" in any of the menus.

I've started a "liquid EM" thread for you here:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/802294/

To start a new thread on any forum, you just go to the forum in question, scroll to the bottom of the thread list, and use the "start a new topic" section.

Thanks G_M,
I see it now.
Eric

Well, I sifted out two trays from the Wriggly Wranch this afternoon during a break in the rains. One tray had been fed the fermented food waste mixed with shredded newspaper and coco coir bedding. The other tray had received just kitchen scraps and same types of bedding. The tray contents were only a few days apart in age and I tossed a handful of worms in each when I loaded the trays.

As I was sifting, I noticed that I got more usuable worm compost (add fatter worms!)out of the tray with the Bokashi fermented scraps. The tray that had just straight kitchen scraps had more "undigested" items that needed to be tossed back into the bin for further worm processing.

Has anyone had success with attracting lots of earthworms when creating a trench filled with Bokashi-fermented scraps in REALLY sandy soil? I mean SAND. That's what my garden mostly has; and not only Cape Cod sand, but builder's sand as well. I'm trying to decide whether I should create raised beds with Bokashi-augmented compost, or try burying my Bokashi-fermented-scraps in trenches in my sandy soil like in the video-link at the top of this thread.
I guess this is a question about composting in sandy soil as much as it is about Bokashi. I'm such a newbie.

Hmmm. Good questions CapeCodG. We're dealing with adobe clay here.
Yoohoo! Eric, how many earthworms are you getting in the AZ sand with your organic amendments and Bokashi?
Anyone else got worms with their sand?

Does anyone see any reason why used coffee grounds shouldn't be used to make the Bokashi "bran"? It dawned on me this evening that rather than spending the time and gas to drive out to a feed store for a 50# bag of bran, I should be able to use the coffee grounds that are readily available from the local coffee houses.

My plan is to follow the directions at the link below, (which I've also copied into the text of the message below the link), using less water since the spent grounds are already slightly moist. As long as I don't get the mixture too wet and dry it out when it's finished fermenting, this should work, right?

http://www.emamerica.com/data/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=226

"Recipe for 50 pounds of Bokashi:

Materials:

50 lbs wheat bran or rice bran
1 cup EM•1® Waste Treatment or EM•1® Microbial Inoculant

1 cup molasses
3-5 gallons clean water
large black plastic garbage bag or airtight container
Something to mix the materials in or on
Procedure:

Mix one gallon of the water with the molasses to dissolve the molasses. Mix in the EM•1®.

Mix the liquid thoroughly into the bran
Squeeze some of the bran into a ball. If it holds shape and no extra liquid comes out, it is the correct moisture. Put into bag or container. If it is too dry, add more water and mix.
If using the bag, tie the bag tightly, squeezing out excess air. If using a container, press down mixture and cover container tightly.
Place mixture somewhere warm and out of the way. Let it ferment for a minimum of two weeks. Longer is fine.
When fermentation is complete, you may notice some white mold on/in the bokashi. This is good. Black or green mold means some air got into the container or it was too moist and is undesireable. You can use the material as is, or dry for long-term storage.
Keep airtight during storage, whether dry or wet."

Hi CapeCodG,
Sand is nice in that it allows for good drainage. Where I used to live on the Cape I also had lots of clay in some parts of the yard. You need LOTS of organic matter! You should collect as many leaves as you can get. I used to have my neighbors throw them over my fence. I would then take a lawn mover and chop them, heap them, and sprayer with a 1:1:100 mixture of EM1:molasses:water. I would then cover with large tarps (got them at Ocean State Job Lot for less than $20 each). I would weight the tarp down with rock or logs and let the stuff ferment for 3-4 weeks...at least.

Once it is fermented, you can mulch around plants or dig into the soil. I would often use my rototiller to do this.

After a couple of years, I got smart and started digging trenches (even during the growing season) in my beds. As I back filled the hole, I would make a layered sandwich of Leaves, EM1 mixture, manure, EM1 mixture, leaves, EM1 mixture, manure, more EM1 mixture, and then cover with soil from the hole.

This process eliminated a few things. I no longer made bokashi from wheat bran. I used green wastes and dried leaves...or anything else I could get my hands on. I no longer did composting in the traditional sense. And...I did not have any more weeds. By covering the materials with about 12 inches of soil, the weeds from the manures never germinated.

The manure brought in millions of worms! The beds that I did like this would literally turn into casting in the areas I did like this. It got to the point that I had to split ALL my perennials sometimes twice in a season. I was splitting daylillies in May, July, and again in September. My sedum and hostas were so big by the end of the season, I would be splitting them twice a season.

By the second year of doing this, I would dead head any flower, throw the seeds in the beds and have a new patch the following season.

My third year I started getting into veggies. I watched the soil go from not even being able to grow tomatoes to being able to grow beets and onions. As you might know the average pH of the soil on the Cape is about 4.5. Beets and onions normally will only produce in the neutral range. There were some serious changes going on.

Give it time. The worms will come. If you want to speed things up, you can order them online. I am sure Gardens Alive or Arbico Organics sells them. There has been a boom in worm castings places around the country, so getting worms should be easy. As long as you provide them with food, they will keep producing and reproducing.

Hi G_M,
Coffee grounds should work. I usually dry them out a little bit and spread near the house since they see to help keep pests like ants away. I am really looking for something that works on scorpions that is organic. I haven't had much luck yet with EM1.

If you can scrounge up leaves or wood shavings/saw dust, those will work fine too.

Sounds like there's hope for your sand CCG!

Eric, any issues or concerns with using the spent coffee grounds to make the Bokashi?

Oops! looks like we were posting at the same time. Thanks for letting me know about the grounds.
I'll see what I can find out about scorpions. MeekKats would probably do well in Tuscon, but they are not native.

This message was edited Jan 6, 2008 9:48 PM

Arizona Organic Pest control has these suggestions for controling scorpions:
http://www.arizonaorganic.com/scorpions.php

Sounds like sealing off access to the house, eliminating their food supply and using a black light to spot them are they key steps. Are you finding a lot of them in the garden?

Hi - If you can get seaweed it seems to be a worm magnet. I used a lot of it in a garden that was sandy and alkiline and there were soon lots of worms. A visiting garden expert said that if you have worms, you'vew got good soil. I didn't wash the seaweed as he said doing that removed the potassium.

Scorpions show up with a blacklight. Don't know if that's any help.

katiebear

Lots of cross-posting. Seems to be a good thread. Thanks, Eric, for all your information.

katiebear

A shoe works well too! I sealed the foundation of the house this summer and have taken most other precautions. Someone told us that there are "paths" that they take and we could be on one. I don't mind them out in the yard since they eat almost anything they can catch. I don't like the thought of one of my kids getting stung. I was hoping to find some type of plants to get, like tansy and mint will do for ants. Thanks for the help!

Seaweed is an awesome resource, mostly for the trace minerals and organic matter it supplies. Add it to mulches and composting. Adding some EM1 will also neutralize the charge of the salts. Some plants are less tolerant of it than others (salts, I mean). Microbes tend to ingest the salts and prevent them from burning plants roots. This is the main reason why bokashi food waste recycling will not cause salt buildup in soils, even in high-salt diets. Bokashi, however, can burn some plants from the high amount of nutrients in it when in contact with roots. This is why it is usually recommended to wait a few weeks before planting in the area the bokashi has been added to. I found that adding more soil on top does the trick better. I usually add about 10-12 inches on top. By the time to roots have grown long enough to reach, the materials have been broken down. (in the desert, we need to water more during this stage to encourage the breakdown.

After about 6 months of repeated applications in the desert soil, the soil was softer and holding moisture to allow watering every 3 days, even in the summer. After a year, I got worms...not as many as I wanted, but I've got them! I found that Wal-Mart sells red wigglers in the sporting goods department for fishing. I picked up about 3 cups for only a couple dollars each this past spring to jump start.

Eric, thanks so much for your really helpful information. I have another question about using an alternate medium in place of the bran.

I raise rabbits, and usually just compost their litter. Their bedding is a wood pellet product called Pestell (more commonly used in horse barns)- it breaks down to fine sawdust. I'm also an avid vermiculturist, and feed the rabbit poop to the worms, but don't put the urine-soaked bedding directly into the worm bin because of the ammonia content.

So my question is- do you think can I use the used, urine-soaked sawdust bedding as a bokashi medium? Any idea what will urine do to the bokashi mix or the fermentation process? I always have way too much of the bedding and would love to put it to good use.

If you don't know for sure, I'm an experimenter anyway, and will give it a shot!

Thanks much,
Holly

Eric, when I lived in Tucson one of the docents at the Desert Museum suggested a cat or two for scorpion control - they aren't sensitive to the venom.

Are you living in one of the newer neighborhoods? Supposedly a lot of construction kind of stirs them up. I used to have a home down in the Mountain/ Grant area and never saw one the entire 8 years I lived there.

Hi ilexwhite,
You can make all the bedding into bokashi and feed that to the worms. Microbes in the EM1 fix nitrogen by converting it into amino acids and ammonium (NH4), both of which do not burn. This is why heaps made into bokashi do not heat up as do piles that are actively turned for compost.

Let us know how it works. I had no problems doing this with fresh cow, goat, and cat litter.

Hi Pagancat,
I have a cat. He likes bird meat. I have yet to see him eat a scorpion.

My neighborhood was built in the late 1980's. My house was built in 1989. It may be a matter of time before we get rid of them all. We had about 30 in the house last summer, before I sealed it. So, I may have sealed the ones that were already in the house and it may just be a matter of time before they die or come out in Kamakazi fashion...

Microbes and scorpions! This thread is turning into a real sci fi thriller! LOL!

Well, I know there are certain effects on some pests. I am not sure exactly why some effects happen. One I do know is on ants...I seem to keep knowing ways to control ants.... Ants collect food to grow fungus in their nests. Ants eat the fungus, not the food. EM1 is fungistatic, which stops the growth of molds and fungus (almost all kinds). Once the food source is contaminated or destroyed, the ants leave to somewhere else that their food will grow.

Flies are attracted by odors and/or sugars. EM1 is applied to eat the sugar or eliminate the odors and the flies are not attracted to the area. Fruit flies are attracted to sugar. House/horse flies are attracted to putrefying materials...odor.

Roaches eat putrefying materials...which is an oxidation process. Sewer roaches eat the crud in drains and sewer lines. As EM1 is added to these systems, the wastes are digested and fermented (an antioxidant process). Therefore, their food source is contaminated and the roaches leave the area.

Rats and mice eat roaches (so do scorpions). As their food source is destroyed, they too will go elsewhere.

Not quite sci-fi until we start talking about mutations and giant ants or other bugs....

"I seem to keep knowing ways to control ants..."

EMEric, do you have fire ants in Tucson? Would the EM solution stop them, or starve them out? I'm always looking for natural ways to control them. Sometimes an armadillo rips the mound apart to get the queen. Unfortunately, armadilloes don't come when you call them.

And if EM is anti-fungal, would a spray of it help plants and new seedlings susceptible to damping off, etc.?

So what's a MeekKat?

ahh yes that is one I need to know fire ants we have a ton of them here and scorpions the last one to be in the house thought it would be nice to sleep in bed with hubby who was already in bed but on my side so when I went to lay down it got me just below my shoulder blade need less to say after a few choice words he died soon after. lol

Meerkats are cute little animals that live in the Kalahari desert in Africa. They are the stars of an Animal Planet series. One of their favourite foods is scorpions. They are immune to the sting. I'm amazed at how many scorpions they can find in one day's foraging.

Here's the official site (can take a long time to load):
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/meerkat/meerkat.html

The Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meerkat_Manor

YouTube video of scorpion vs meerkat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IndQKvKaypE&feature=related

I will be interested in hearing about your experiences with EM/Bokashi and fire ants.
I seem to recall that fire ants are meat eaters.

MeerKat Manor clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_eVEW_Y02o

Hi Maypop,
Ouch yes. I don't know why they bite. I never did anything against them..! Yes, it works. I had them all over my lawn. I made of some activated EM1 (I can give you a recipe) and soaked the ground. The next day they were gone...moved on to the neighbor's I would assume.

Foliar sprays for powdery mildew... make a mixture of EM1 and water at 2-2.5 ounces per gallon and spray the leaves. A nice way to prevent this is to spray your plants at night in you irrigation water (or sprayer) at about 1 tsp per gallon in the early evening or at night. Since you have the fungistatic effects from the EM1, you don't have to worry about fungal problems from watering at night. (it works on nail/toe fungus as well. use a cotton ball or soak in it.)

I have been lucky so far. My son got stung last year out in the yard.

I "googled" a meekat. It looks like a ferret.

Don't hold back on us now Eric.......we're waiting with baited breath for that ant solution recipe!

You have to watch an episode of MeerKat Manor to truly appreciate them. The narrative script is well written. Each episode is a cliff hanger leaving you wondering what will happen next.

Hi G_M,
I have a lot more experience with EM1 than with bokashi. Although I have literally made tons of bokashi, it was back in the Northeast where we didn't have fire ants. Down in Tucson, I am always making some type of liquid concoction of activated EM1.

I have played a lot with hot peppers, garlic, citrus, and other herbs to make various sprays. I have also blended in Ocean Solution, magnetite, zeolite, quartz, bentonite, sea salts, and a bunch of other things. I developed the first successful batches of beer brewed with EM1. He actually sent two staff to Tucson to have me teach them how to do it. There are now three breweries in Japan making "EM Beer".

If I had it my way, I would ferment the world...

a fermented world, eh? hiccough! slosh!

Do you use EM in your sauerkraut or pickles?

We had fireants in Florida. They would pick a dead bird or small mammal clean very quickly. Saw them attack and carry off a number of caterpillars and beetles. I've read about them attacking a few invalid residents in nursing homes. If an EM1 spray can minimize their presence, it would be a blessing for the regions that have them.

I'll bet Mibus would be willing to try out your suggested EM1 recipes for dealing with ants. You'll report back with the results, right Mibus?

Ahhh, an actual recipe... We need to first get Activated EM1 out of the way. Since EM1 is a fermented product, you can use it to grow some more, kind of like sourdough. The difference is that you can't keep taking this stuff and growing more from the original as it will degenerate over time. So, the recipe goes as follows for Activated EM1:

To prepare 22 parts of Activated EM•1® (AEM•1®) from 1 part of EM•1®.Molasses for activating EM

* A clean airtight plastic bottle or container or large tank with lid
* 1 part EM•1® (5% of the total volume)
* 1 part Sugar Cane Molasses (5% of the total volume)
* 20 parts Water

Tools to help the preparation process

* A funnel
* A measuring cup and spoon
* pH paper to check pH

To Make 1 liter or quart:

1. Add water to fill 80% of the plastic bottle
2. Then add 50ml (1.7oz) of molasses and 50ml (1.7oz) of EM•1® in the bottle
3. Shake the bottle to dissolve the molasses. Top off with water.
4. Cap the bottle tightly and keep in a warm place. for 5-7 days.
The fermentation will cause pressure build-up in the bottle. You will have to "gas" or "burp" the bottle until this gassing subsides. Usually, after three or four days after the gassing starts, the AEM1 is ready to use.

I've got to add that there isn't really a right or wrong way with this. You don't have to be perfectly accurate with the measurements either.

I normally pour the AEM1 on a mound without diluting it. I have heard that it will still have the same effect diluted at 20:1. This is about 1 quart of AEM1 per 5 gallon bucket of water.

OK DGers - time to round up the fire ant posse. Those of you in fire ant territory that are willing to start working with EM, please try Eric's recipe and let us know the results. Ready, set, activate and pour!!!

Hi G_M,
So funny. These are the standard activation instructions. If anyone has problems with the directions, let me know. It is pretty simple: mix. pour, seal, ferment. If you want to make a gallon, you use 3/4 cups EM1, 3/4Cups molasses, and fill a gallon jug with warm water.

Yes, I make Kim Chee, bread, salsa, salad dressings, you name it.

Now you've done it. Fork over the EM bread recipe (please!)

EMEric--Since DG won't allow specific products to be recommended I guess I'll have to google for one. On another forum, or thread, I asked what the chances would be of any of these "organic" products showing up on Big Box store shelves--mostly so I can avoid the outrageous shipping charges. Has anyone seen them in retail? I will try the recipe on ants, bad soil, and a nice spinach salad with EM salad dressing. Maybe Paul Newman would bottle it, then advertise it on Oprah.

Sounds like what you're saying (kind of) is that we shouldn't use any product if we can't eat it or smear it on our skin.

As for critter probs, I have to admit that fire ants keep the tick population down hereabouts. Armadilloes eat some fire ants (and make nice BIG holes for other animals to shelter in, and for horses to stumble in). I'm glad we don't have scorpions here, that I know of. But tarantulas aren't harmful, are they? Just scary looking. As for Meercat Manor, I watched one show where a baby was killed by a bird of prey. Now I can't watch it any more.

Has anyone seen the YouTube video of the lions and crocodiles attacking the baby water buffalo?--not sure if these are the real animals. I've only heard about the amazing thing that happened.

Hi CapeCod,
I went to Harwich middle school-high school and then moved to Centerville until 2002. Oh, we have most venomous creatures out here. Scorpions are the only one I really worry about because they can crawl into your shoes, you bed, etc. We have had rattlesnakes in the yard (you really only need to worry about the babies because they don't know how to control how much venom to inject). We have had Wolf Spiders, Black Widows, and Crab Spiders (all pretty docile). I want to see a tarantula. There are Gila monsters out here as well. Very different from the Cape where you never see any poisonous creatures.

G_M,
For bread the simplest version is to take any bread recipe and add an equal amount of EM1 to the amount of yeast when proofing. It makes a load of difference. Cloud Cliff bakery in Santa Fe now uses EM1 in their breads.