What's everyone ordering for spring in the from of woodies?

PG,

The non-clonal forms would be those sold simply as Calycanthus floridus. Anything with a name, such as "Athens" or "Michael Lindsay," will be clonally reproduced. Even some Calycanthus floridus sold without a name might be asexually reproduced, just depending on how the propagator chooses to quickly make a bunch of them, so the whole lot at a nursery might all be the same plant, but unless it is a named cultivar, the characteristics of the plant cannot be dependably predicted by the gardener. Therefore, choosing an unnamed Calycanthus floridus for fragrance needs to be done when the plant is in flower.

"Arnold Promise" is not--someone correct me if I'm wrong--a good witchhazel for fragrance. Great color and form, good fall color, but not great fragrance. That said, all "Arnold Promise" should smell exactly alike. However, fragrance on witchhazels, even the very same witchhazel tree, is extremely dynamic. They bloom very early in the year and unless the conditions are just right, they don't smell at all. Then, late afternoon rolls around, the sun comes out, gthe air warms up, and, boom, suddenly the fragrance is very noticeable and sweet. I think even the sweetness of the fragrance varies a little with the weather on my two trees ("Ruby Glow" and "Pallida").

True, "ideal" planting times and "times when you can transplant and not kill the poor bugger" are two different things. I think I've planted nearly everything at the wrong time at one point or another. Plants are resilient. They get by.

Scott

My list so far

Calycanthus floridus
Clethra alnifolia (Summersweet)
Corylus american (hazelnut)
Fothergilla major
Viburnum dentatum 'Northern Burgundy'
Viburnum rafinesquianum

I'm hoping to find a Callicarpa americana. Not real big on pushing the zone envelope, but I had one when we lived in TN and I adored it. So this one, I will try.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. So since all cultivars are genetically the same, their fragrance doesn't vary within a set. The dim bulb that is my brain is starting to flicker, why the named cultivar isn't necessarily the best bet for all traits, but is "selected" for those deemed worthy of replication. With necessary trade-offs, like variable fragrance for consistent flower color & size in the Calycanthus cultivars? I guess that's still my question, wouldn't you need to know (as you did about Arnold's Promise) what exactly a cultivar was picked for (form and color) as compared to vigor/compactness/(insert foot here)?

PG,

I'm not sure I exactly understand your question. I think it is about why certain plants are selected and named. Strange as it may seem, as good as the fragrance of a plant like Calycanthus can be, sometimes cultivars are selected for other features, such as color. "Michael Lindsay" is an older clone, noted for good fragrance and typical maroon flowers. "Athens" is newer, and introduces a yellow flower to the trade. Fortunately, it is supposed to still be a fragrant cultivar. This is a bit different from roses, say, where more breeding, which introduced more colors and bigger and more flowers, came at the expense, often, of fragrance.

Often times, the trade is pretty good about stating why a new cultivar is better, or at least why it should be considered a desirable new plant. Hydrangea "All Summer Beauty", for instance, was introduced a few years ago and became a big hit because it repeatedly blooms all season. New cultivars of variegated plants come out all the time because there is a great market for them. "October Glory" red maple is well known for great fall color. Where nursery marketing campaigns leave off, magazines and books pick up, and you can thumb through something like Dirr's manual and get the gist of all but the very newest important cultivars of any given species. And, yes, because cultivars are clonally reproduced, their characteristics should remain exactly the same, completely dependably, conceivably forever.


Some plants hardly ever have any cultivars selected at all. Chionanthus, for instance. Although surely some especially fragrant, really nicely formed, exceptional specimens have occurred from time to time, the plant is so difficult to asexually reproduce (or clone) that virtually everything on the market is seed grown. Therefore, great variability amongst Chionanthus quality is to be encountered.

I hope this helps.

Scott

Yes it does. Still and all, common sense should prevail. So if selecting a plant for fragrance, it'll have to be in bloom in order to get a whiff of it. If looking for form or bloom color, start checking out various cultivars, noting the differences between each of them, and also the differences between the cultivars and the species. And the sports.

PG,

I think you and Scott have this figured out. One plant that I have noticed this give and take relationship on traits on is Clethra. What we grew as Clethra alnifolia and also 'Rosea' had a much nicer fragrance than some of the newer ones like 'September Beauty' or 'Ruby Spice.' 'Ruby Spice' has the best pink/red flowers a decent fragrance and but lacking in sweetness of the first two that I mentioned. Like you said, one plant may excel in one area but lack in another. Then there can be size differences that make or break the deal also.

Regards,
Ernie

See Scott why I learn from your discussions. PG, Maulsman are others who understand and teach with each discussion. I being more practical don't know how to chose with genetic diversity rather by the hands on of traveling to areas of large choice of plant selection. I am learning how to select via the clonal selective vs the visual characterestics. Keep teaching how to be more selective without dissapointment. Soon my carbon production will diminish (shopping via the internet vs travel) and Al Gore will find me accecptable as a consumer in America. Steve.

off-topic, sorry.

This message was edited Feb 27, 2007 8:34 PM

Off topic also

This message was edited Feb 27, 2007 8:17 PM

This message was edited Feb 27, 2007 9:01 PM

BTW, that's a cut and paste error. The Callicarpa americana was right in front of the Callicarpa dichotoma on the listing. Equil contacted me earlier and told me I could have one of the ones she ordered for herself.

David_Vermont...looks like a Burnt Ridge Nursery order to me..btw you should like the IE Mulberry)

This year...

Honey Jar Jujube
Yoinashi Asian Pear
Evans Cherry
Honeycrisp apple
Northline Serviceberry (Amelanchier alnifolia)
Sweet Scarlet Goumi (Elaeagnus Multiflora)
Variegated Elaeagnus Pugens (I know I'm pushing the zone on this one)
Autumn Olive (Elaeagnus umbellata)
Hippophae Rhamnoides (Seaberry)
Xanthoceras Sorbifolia (Yellowhorn)
Lonicera Fragrantissima

I know I'm likely forgetting a few things....Though my wife has already said that I need to pull other things out to put new stuff in...

~Chills

Your right Chills....... can't wait to get all those exciting trees planted! What gave me away?....... chestnut cultivars?

I had my local nursery put in an order for two Mountain Ash trees.........one red and one orange. I also plan to buy a couple apricot trees and another cherry tree.

I am ordering a buncha viburnums -- maybe 20-30, though haven't made the final picks yet. I will spend some time poring over the the vinurnum threads to learn the best selections of some of these from our resident gurus. NO other woodies mailorder. With the likes of Gee Farms, Arrowhead, and some of our good woody wholesale nurseries in SE MI, there is an abundant selection of woodies within a 30 mile drive to rarely need to order woodies by mail. Oh well maybe V. ichangense or V. furcatum if I can find them.

I am ordering a rather large number of perennials though, mostly in multiples of 18, 25, or 36, from some of the big wholesalers. Got a lotta ground to cover and I like herbaceous plants in masses.

Will have LOTSA work to do come mid April. Anyone who lives near me and wants to trade some grunt labor for plants, cmon over or email me.....

I agree with Victor...wish I had the room for more of these wonderful plants. I also would have to get rid of things to plants more. 20/30 Viburnums?? WOW.

David_Vermont....yep. I know their catalog like the back of my hand.

My wife wants to get chestnuts, but I doubt we have the room at this point.

~Chills

i like H or H's -- hackberry, hazelnut and hansa rose. white oak, bur too,
norway spruce, white pine, red pine

I have to buy mail order to be able to get anything good. All of our nurseries around here sell the same ole thing that is at the big box stores. You can only look at so many leyland cypress and encore azaleas before you start to get nauseous. LOL

Leyland cypress, oh lordy. There is a nursery the other side of Gainesville, Florida that grows NOTHING ELSE. Or at least they did last I checked; they might have shut down and sold the land, as that's the trendy side of town and the land is valuable. Imagine ten thousand Leyland cypress in pots ranging from quart to 25 gallon -- and nothing else. Even much of the landscaping was Leyland cypress....

Mark., I order the weird stuff from Oregon, and sometimes it survives

Go and shop in any Zone 7 areas and the variety will be stupendous but you have to know the nurseries. Anything will grow in zone 7. I came from and shop in Seattle area. Lots of choices there.

7 is heaven

Oh, how my life would be so much better if I were in Zone 7!

Scott

Mehbe thats right. Temperates fry in Zone 8 and Tropicals freeze.

I would give anything to be anywhere near zone 6 and it wouldn't take much to give it up for even zone 5.

All of you need to garden in zone 4a for at least two years, and then you will appreciate where you are now.

Mike
Buried under feet of newly fallen snow.

This message was edited Mar 3, 2007 3:38 PM

Zone envy is so ugly.

I lived in zone 7 and it was so easy to grow anything I became bored. So I moved to zone 4b and my life is so much better. I told Dan Hinkley who grew up in zone 4 with me that anyone can grow in zone 7 so I am going back where it is a challenge. He only laughed and frowned. I like to have an out of zone and when global warming continues and the plant continues life is good. When it dies I accept it and move on to the next hope. LOL

An out of zone experience. I think we called that "far out!" in the old days.

Yeah man, FAR OUT! Cheech and Chong were definitely out of zoners. LOL

I've had PLENTY of things die in this zone....we have the humidity and heat that never gives up at night and that's why I can't have Meconopsis...Delphinium...Lupines...etc.....I know..this is trees and shrubs. Now the Pacific North West...that's a different story.

Cheech and Chong? My old days were older than that.

http://www.cheechandchong.com/biography.html

Herb gardeners?

Here's my list, most of them in relatively small sizes. I thought I was being rather restrained, but now that I look at them all together, it's rather more than I thought. I planted most of last year's (liners) in a holding bed due to non-gardening requirements on my time, but expect to have the time to plant them all this year as well. The areas I'm planting are largely woodland edges tansitioning to buildings, though I also have some wetland edges as well. A few are experiments in hardiness, like the Calycanthus, Corylopsis, Daphne, and Pieris, things that have a chance, but will need careful siting and a few easy winters to get settled.
(You guys are quite corrupting, since about half of these plants I've heard about from all of you . . . ) Babs

Daphne x transatlantica 'Summer Ice'
Azalea Rosy Lights
Azalea White Lights
Calycanthus Venus
Hydrangea paniculata Quick Fire
Hydrangea paniculata Shamrock
Hydrangea paniculata ‘Pinky Winky’
Kalmia latifolia Olympic Fire (mountain laurel)
Pieris x. Mountain Fire
Corylopsis gotoana
Caryopteris x clandonensis 'Arthur Simmonds'
Lindera benzoin (spicebush)
Prunus subhirtella 'Pendula'
Taxodium distichum (bald cypress)
Thuja occidentalis 'RheinGold'
Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'LSS Silver Feathers' (white cedar)
Chamaecyparis thyoides 'Whitewater' (white cedar)
Chamaecyparis thyoides 'Red Star' (white cedar)
Cornus alternifolia ‘Golden Shadows’ AKA 'Wstackman' (pagoda dogwood)
Larix laricina (American larch)
Star Magnolia 'Lyle’s Legacy'

NHbabs the Cornus alternifolia 'Golden Shadows' I am not familiar with. there was no pictures in Plant files. I love the shape of all of the Alternifolias.

Sofer,
Here is a link to a picture.

http://www.songsparrow.com/images-plants-2007/highres/1CORALGS.jpg

This plant reminds me of a "tree hosta".

I purchased this plant from http://www.Songsparrow.com (Klehm's) and it has done very well for me in zone 4a. My plant receives more sun that it wants, but as some of the larger-growing trees get some size to them, it will be happier.

Song Sparrow sends EXCELLENT plants. I would have to rate them the highest of any mail order nursery, for both plant quality and packing techniques.
Mike

My small shopping list for this year:

Crinodendron hookerianum http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/58038/index.html - have source
Lomatia myricoides http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/59987/index.html I have this one in a 5 gallon and it flew through winter again
Desfontainia spinosa http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/98990/index.html - have source
Stachyurus salicifolius http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/82648/index.html - need to hunt down this one (in pic below)
Lapageria rosea http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/2342/index.html I have a protected north-facing garden and a cedar this could climb - expensive though.

A bit "southern-hemisphere" stuff as I seem to be working on that kinda thing lately.


This message was edited Mar 3, 2007 12:09 PM

Growin..with your list 7 is not heaven....wish I could have at least one of those beauties.

Just doesn't seem right that Vancouver should be 2 zones warmer than me! Where's the justice??

Well, I have some suggestions to try. That Lomatia myricoides does so well, even in the most exposed spots and considering this winter was a zone 8a here, I'd say it's worth testing in 8a, 7b with protection. I'm impressed by this ones hardiness/toughnees and see it worth trying. I actually noticed it's in a 1gal, not a 5. The other one in this pic is Myrsine africana http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/77520/index.html and it seems completely oblivious to the winter for many years in a container. I'd say the same about it. Worthy of a good test by the adventurous in 8a, 7b. We may not have that cold of a winter but we don't have that hot of a summer. Things like Albizia barely grow.

ps. Isn't Stachyurus hardy in lower zones?

This message was edited Mar 3, 2007 1:23 PM

growin,
I am very jealous that you can grow Lapageria rosea. Lapageria is not tolerant of any lime, at all, and will not survive very long when subjected to lime. The water that comes out of our tap, here in Mpls, is between 8 and 10 on the pH scale. Even if Lapageria is planted in a very acidic mix, just the act of watering kills this plant.

Zone and plant envy is heck. I don't like it one bit. I want to live somewhere, where I can grow EVERYTHING!!!

Thanks, too, for the link to world plants. I see an expensive credit card transaction in my very-near future.
Mike


This message was edited Mar 3, 2007 3:38 PM

Couldn't a block of peatmoss be put in a mesh-bag and left in a bucket of water to make it a bit more acidic? Lapageria are if'y here but can come through ok if given enough protection and a good winter.

If I lived in the states, I'd move to San Francisco in a heart-beat. Everything grows there.

I thought everything grew in Vancouver, B.C.