Becky, I bet by next year you will have loosened up. I started creating my beds 5 years ago and it took me until about the 3rd year to not be so impatient. Just this year I was thinking about how far I've come. It's hard to start with small things when you see full size ones in pics and other gardens, and when you hear that the 3rd year is when they really take off that sounds like forever!
I've discovered too that annuals are great plants! You think that perennials are the way to go because they come back but annuals that reseed are great because they come up so fast, and you don't worry about them when it freezes. And the great thing about making online friends and having swaps is that people are so generous and willing to replace things that you lose. :) (we rock!)
Debnes, that's very ingenious of you. I'll be curious to know if it works. Our last few winters have not been very harsh and the predictions for this one are worse. I can't be exactly sure without looking at pictures (and since I'm lame and can never fill out a gardening journal) but I think that my parsley usually stayed green. If you were to put that plastic over the top then things might survive, but there's really no telling.
What do you have in there that you are really trying to save? Which of them needs to be growing in the winter? Or are you trying to just give it time to get some roots?
ps...Sheila, I'm not pulling back any mulch. I'm just going to throw the seeds on top of it and water them a little to hold them down.
This message was edited Nov 27, 2006 7:36 PM
Interesting butterfly behavior
Sheila - I don't remember where plants are exactly in my gardens either, which is why I take lots of photos of my garden just to refer to in the Spring. I, too, am worried about weeding the wrong plants. But, I'm going to try to do what Paige suggested and just not weed at all until everything is growing & blooming so that I can tell for sure. It's gonna kill me to do that, but I'm gonna try to follow through with that suggestion. Thanks, Paige.
Paige - Thank you for the insight on annuals. You just opened my eyes!!! I never thought of annuals that way. But you are right - they grow fast and often reseed for next year. I have been guilty of picking mostly perennials for my gardens. I need to seriously re-think that strategy. Thanks for commending annual flowers.
So .... probably the best way to do a seed bed is to toss seeds out in Fall and then again in Spring?
I take pics of my beds too. Every spring I stand outside staring at something green saying "what is that? it looks familiar" lol I have learned not to pull out anything unless I know for a fact they are weeds. (we have the usual suspects) Sometimes you end up with a present from a bird or the wind if you leave them alone! Freebies are always great!
Oh yes, do plant some good annuals if you haven't. Those orange or yellow cosmos are great, but they reseed ferociously. I let mine get out of hand year before last and they're thick as a forest when they come up. I had tall cosmos that did that one year and they were so thick that I had to cut them down instead of pulling them. Red salvias are annuals but they reseed ferociously too. But the hummers and many other things love them.
That's what I'm going to do with some seeds, now and spring. If they get too thick then I'll pull some out. (right, I can't stand to waste!)
There it is paige, I am trying to see what a little extra barrier from cold will do to change the zone set here. I need a little more time to get the roots on some of the things I planted already. If the winter is mild it should be very good; if the winter is more harsh, I am protected b y 2 things: The house blocking the north, and the added insulation board and clear poly. Also the distance from the sun made up with the reflective board. (I had been angling mirrrors to shine on plants from over the 6' back fence.)
Either way my hopes are better. Dh thinks our zones are changing with the GWarming.. gotta give that a hardy maybe, though I still want to prepare for the possible cold blasts. I know I don't want to go outside if it gets really cold all of a sudden. I want to curl up under the covers, hehe.
I have been admiring some low ground greenhouses, and thought I might achieve a similar effect this way, and over existing beds for less work moving in Spring. Who knows?
deb, it looks like a great idea and you've put a lot of work into it.
Well, good luck! It's a good idea and you've put way more thought into it than I would/could have. The front of my house faces south so it's protected a lot more than the back. My backyard freezes earlier than my parents backyard across town. Mine gets the cold wind blowing down a "mountain" (we call it) behind us. It comes down and hits my backyard like a windbreak. That's how my fence got knocked down. I'd like a report on Friday morning.
I stressed over things for a few years then finally let that go (it can happen Becky) and I've been much more relaxed. So, a butterfly bush bit the dust for no reason. It's ok, I'll get another cheap one at Lowe's. I am a little concerned about my passionvine tho because I still have cats and I saw one laying eggs yesterday on it!! (oh, gonna start a new thread about this)
Well thanks y'all,
Actually I put more thought than labor into it. That foamboard is easy to cut with a good sharp knife. The major work was in filling and planting the bed. So $15 and 30 minutes was worth it to me. Tonight I will get Kirby (DS) to help me fix the poly on the topside..
I have by Buddelija in front, (North).. I really don't want to lose her, so I might try something today on that one.
Wintery mix in the forcast for DFW Wednesday-Thursday... sleet and icy rain. I have a lot of felled leaves I can scoop around some things, and may try mulching some more in front also.
Deb - How's the garden? Have you been out to check if the foam board and plastic sheeting worked to protect the plants? I'm really curious about your garden covering.
So far so good Becky, it's still standing..LOL
Thanks for askin! I am going to keep it covered until it warms up some.
I have a lot of Monarch cats right now. I mean a LOT! I probably have over 50 in 2 cages! I've been finding them all over the place in my 5 milkweed patches in my gardens.
Something interesting that I am noting is that most are still emerging as "male" Monarch butterflies. I think out of about 22 that I have released so far, only 2 were females. Do you suppose that is because of the season. It did get really cold here recently. Perhaps less females are born this time of year because it would not be a good idea to breed and lay eggs in the winter months? I've never released so many males as I have this year.
Another thing I am noting is that the cats are going into their chrysalis stage as a much smaller cat. Not getting to the size of the big cats that I usually see earlier. And the chrysalis are quite a bit smaller. It almost reminds me of the Queen chrysalis because the size is considerably smaller than the average Monarch chrysalis in the Spring and Summer months. Which of course means that the butterflies will be much smaller.
I find all of this very fascinating! I just assumed that the cats and butterflies would be basically equal in gender and in size regardless of what season it was. I never thought that there would be such a dramatic change in gender and size. I have definitely seen a lot more Monarch butterflies and cats in the Fall than I saw in the Spring and over the Summer this year.
I wonder why this is?
Hum, probably because it has been warmer there than your neighbors North, and maybe there were more born this year. You do have plenty of milkweed too, so your going to see more. You definatly contributed to those numbers Becky!! wtg!
As far as their size being smaller and going to morph earlier..I think they can tell the weather and seasons better than human meterologists, so we will now see how long they take to eclose. Might be a tad bit longer than in Summer.
I noticed that about my last BST cat too. It was left alone by the other 3, was half the size of the other 3 and morphed sooner anyway. That could explain why some are huge BFs and some are small BFs, I suppose. That leaves me in anticipation to see them next Spring to see the final differences.
I'd like to ask all who read this thread:
What's the longest time you guys/gals have watched a Monarch stay in it's chrysalis?
What month/s did that occur?
I am too new to have experience to answer your questions but due to a computer malfunction my email to debnes_dfw_tx did not go through so.............HOPE you had a MOST excellent birthday on Friday,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Happy Birthday to Deb, Happy Birthday to Deb......you have been most informative and lets just say it one of the most helpful people I have encountered, thanks Deb for being you............
Deb - Mine always average 8-10 days. If it is raining a lot or very cold temps, they usually die before emerging. I have never found any in my garden that over-wintered. But that is not to say they don't, just not in my yard.
MQN! Late is great! Thank you for the kind words and all :-), bless ya!
Ya Becky, they definatly aren't known to overwinter at all.. I just wondered about the range of days they might stay in and eclose as healthy BFs.. So you say 8-10 and any longer means something is terribly wrong?
Thx!
I would guess that after 15 days, something is wrong with the chrysalis. It has seemed to me with the rain and cold weather, that my monarchs are not as healthy. More viruses and then the awful parasitic wasps laying eggs inside a cat. It just makes me so disappointed. But ya know what? For everyone we save, that is probably more than would make it in the wild. Too many predators in the wild. So everytime I release one, I just thank God for that little flying beauty that is gracing my yard.
I have a funny story ..... I planted Maypop from seeds this year. There were 10 seeds that all germinated. I planted them all along my back fence. For some strange reason, the GF cats seem to like on particular Maypop vine. (They are ALL the same type of vine and the seeds came from a friend's vine.) All the vines are climbing all over the fence except one scraggly vine that the cats seem to prefer to eat. They are literally chewing it to the ground!!! And right now there are 6 GF cats on it and very few leaves left. There is a nice healthy tall vine of the same right next to this poor little plant, but the cats keep crawling over to the vine that is about gone! I have no idea what could possibly be the attraction! Anyone know or have a guess why that is?
Evidently they think there's a difference...Maybe the seeds had a variance.. just a thought.
The seeds all came from the same piece of fruit. Go figure!
That is strange about the plants they prefer when they are all the same. Could that one have a better location or richer soil? You think bf cats say things when talking about plants to each other like.......location, location, location lol
Deb, the average time for my chrysalises has been 10 days, but I've never had one for 14 days, but 12, yes. I would give it a little more time just in case.
Did you get a lot of cool, rare plants for your birthday? Or maybe butterfly paraphernelia...t-shirt, books, hats?
:-) Roxie, I just got a really cool camera, and family had a gathering for me and my nephew, whose BD was the 4th. We had a great time...then as we were leaving I was looking up ant the beautiful moon coming up. I had my hands full of things heading for the car, when suddenly stepping on a patch of ice, my feet went right out from under me. I fell very hard on the crown of my head. It was really weird collecting my thoughts took a little bit. Aside from being a little sore in my neck and a couple other places that absorbed the reverberating shock, I was just fine!!
Then I drove from DSs house becoming oriented little by little, and safely made it. Every one was calling me after I got home asking if I was alright, and by the last caller (my SIL), I was laughing about how I didn't try to catch myself and break an arm.. A rather hysterical laughter came over me. That could have been a deadly fall, but an angel must have assisted me somehow. I had a good sized goose egg, and put an icepack on it and yesterday morning the goose egg was gone. Justa little sore, nothing broken..Thank God!
I really believe laughter does something with healing properties...
Oh Deb, that must have been scary, you could have been seriously hurt! Glad it wasn't and you were able to laugh about it.
Sounds like you had a great birthday!!!
Maybe my fear section was jogged, because I went from pain to amazement and grattitude pretty quick.. This year's BD was truly unforgettable in every way.
Deb - Oh my! So glad you weren't seriously hurt! Glad to hear your birthday was wonderful! :-)
fly-girl - My maypop vines are right next to each other. Most are touching, but the GF cats have all moved down to the scraggly one at the end of the fence that has very little left. (Low rent.) Poor little vine. I haven't a clue why the cats insist on eating that poor plant practically to the ground when they have a long fence of the same exact vine growing like crazy everywhere! No kidding, there were at least 6 GF cats on it when I looked at it today. I don't bother to bring those cats in. With the spikey do those cats have, I don't think they have too many predators. (Perhaps I'm wrong, but there are sure a lot of cats out there.) And actually, I think the wasps have thinned out considerably. I have picked about 40-50 cats off my milkweed over the past week. Of course, some are sick, but it looks like caterpillar heaven in my cages. I have another 14 chrysalis in a smaller cage. And I have released over 20 in the last 3 weeks. I can't believe how many I've had this Fall. That is a record for me for just a month. Last year I released about 200 for the entire year. This year it looks to be a little bit more. Probably closer to 225 - 250!
How long does it take for the Sulphur butterflies to emerge from their chrysalis? I have 2 right now in a cage.
Also, continuing the bee saga ...... I have not seen a single bee sleeping on my garden flowers since the weather warmed up. I now think they were so cold that they couldn't leave the plants in the late afternoon during the week we had the record cold temperatures.
Looks like some Sulphurs do over winter in the chrysalis stage...
http://www.toledo-bend.us/index.shtml?bfly2_info
This page seems to have some details^^ about it.
Thanks, Deb! I'll check it out!
Becky~ Have you ever heard of this place, just north of Orlando?
http://www.floridaherbs.com/ButterflyGardenGuide.htm
Great Job Becky....250 butterflies...that's amazing!!!
Some of my cats haven't been as healthy as earlier, I have a chrysalis that has turned dark but there is a string hanging from the chrysalis about 3 " long, I don't think that's a good sign. Have you seen this?
Wow Becky! That's probably more than I've released altogether in the last few years. I've had milkweed late the last few years but this year I don't so I won't have any late cats. Stupid El Nino... lol
fly_girl - Yes! I have in fact seen that long stringy thing hanging from a chrysalis. Some emerge okay and some don't. I just leave them until I see them dying or emerging. I don't know why, but my cats are much healthier in the Spring/Summer than in the Fall/Winter months. I think the plants have scale, bacteria, and cat viruses on them by the end of the season. My Scarlet Milkweed usually dies back or I cut it to almost the ground in early Spring. It is always so healthy in the Spring. New leaves and new seedlings sprouting.
Deb - I have never heard of that Herb place near Orlando. Interesting website. I didn't know that the Giant Swallowtail liked Rue! It was listed as a host plant for the GST on the herb website. I guess I need to grow Rue again. I don't like the smell of Rue, though it does have a nice shape and gets bushy. I do like the small leaves, too. Just hate the smell. Thanks for the link to that site. Very interesting site, indeed!
Paige - I bet you have contributed to the butterfly population by more than 200 yourself, due to the ones that lived in your yard! Don't neglect to count all the cats growing in the "wild" in your yard! :-) Just seeing your gardens, I know you had tons of cats and butterflies!
I don't really count the cats I raise. I just count when I get large numbers of cats and then do a quick count of the butterflies I release. This year was definitely a record for me. The plants in the yard attracted all kinds of butterflies. Much to my total delight! This was a good year for my gardens even being brand new starter garden plants. I'm hoping next Spring the new plants start taking off and get much larger. And I hope I don't get a hard freeze this winter that kills them off instead. I was out in the yard yesterday after work. I moved the 6 GF cats to another vine because they have pretty much chewed the one to the ground. When I moved the cats, I saw about 18-20 more on the other maypop vines. They were everywhere! Oddly, I haven't seen any GF butterflies or Zebra Longwings in over a week. They must have died or become dinner for a predator. Hopefully, the cats will make it to the butterfly stage. I have a couple more Monarchs to release tomorrow. They emerged today while I was at work. I keep the hatchery right next to the kitchen sink so that I can keep an eye on all the chrysalis. I need to pull more chyrsalis off the cage ceiling and put in the hatchery. I just haven't had the time yet. Hopefully, this weekend. Gotta love that dental floss! Works like a charm to re-hang the chyrsalis! LOL
Thanks Becky, I was afraid it was bad. It's weird though.
What is your hatchery? I'm always afraid to move the chrysalis.
I found 2 little monarch cats outside today on a plant. I was amazed because it's been close to freezing at night. But, I've had a couple cats get big and then look like they are 'J'ing but end up dying.
fly_girl - Yes, I have been losing some of my cats in J formation, too. Probably a virus. But for everyone I lose, several more make it to the chrysalis stage. I can't save them all.
My hatchery is nothing but a very small cheap bug/reptile cage. Cheap plastic. But it has slates on the lid that I can tie the dental floss (which I use to re-hang the chrysalis) to. Which is why I like it. I put a soft papertowel on the bottom of the cage for the butterflies when they crawl off the empty shell after emerging. And it soaks up the fluids that drip during emergence. It's easy to clean as well. I put it in my kitchen because of the humidity. I think it helps the butterflies to emerge if it's in an area where there is some humidity. Maybe it doesn't matter. It's just a convenient place for me to keep an eye on them. I check them several times a day to see if any are getting darker or in some cases dying. (Which I remove promptly.)
I'll post a photo later this weekend. Remind me if I forget. It might give you and others some ideas for your own hatchery.
I think I have one of those I found at Petsmart. So, you move all your chrysalises to that? When you remove them are you afraid they will get away, or do you just set it outside and open the lid?
fly_girl - Yes, I move all the chrysalis from the cat cages to this little bug cage. When I remove the chrysalis from the cat cages, they are usually on the top of the cage, so I just gently pull them down leaving some of the silk thread (which I use to tie the dental floss to) and then I just hang them in the little bug cage. They are already in chrysalis stage, not cat stage. I just make sure the chrysalis is good and dry before I attempt to move it. When the butterflies emerge, I just open the cage in my screened in porch, reach in and gently grasp the closed wings of the butterfly to remove it. I will turn the butterfly upside down to keep it calmer. (They tend to move around less when in that position.) I just make sure that I have all four wings closed as they are normally between my fingers. I don't want it thrashing around in my grasp and breaking a wing. It's not that hard to grasp their wings shut. If it gets away from me I just carefully catch it in my cupped hands. On the day they emerge, they usually are not that active. Often I just wait until the next day to release it. By then it's more than ready to fly away. And often they hang around my yard. Sometimes for their entire lifecycle. I always know the ones I raised because they are not afraid of me. More often than not, they will follow me around my yard as I am working. Even after releasing over 400 butterflies in the past 2 years since I started doing this, I never tire of the butterfly stage! It's always such a joy to release them and see them glide around my yard! That's why I can't stop raising and releasing them. It's an addiction for sure! LOL They are just so beautiful. It kind of reminds me of watching fish in a large salt water aquarium. It's captivating!!!
This is photo of the hatchery that I use. As you can count there are 24 Chrysalis plus the one Monarch that just emerged right as I took this photo. Looks like 2 or 3 more will be emerging sometime today as well.
Great photo Becky!
I have so many monarch cats in my yard and cage right now that I am literally running out of milkweed for them. I have a total of 76 Scarlet Milkweed plants in my yard. (This includes about 25 that are in pots that I use for the cages.) They are all down to a few leaves and mostly bare stems and trunk which is also chewed down. I've pretty much lost count of the total number of cats that I currently am aware of. I don't even know how many are in the cage. (I know that there are 12 attached chyrsalis at the top of the cage and 5 hanging in a J. They are everywhere! Plus there is a desperate female Monarch who's been in my yard for the past couple days trying to find a piece of milkweed leaf to lay her eggs on. There aren't many leaves left on all my plants.
This photo I thought was kind of funny. Two cats are in a J hanging off the paper towel I have around the bottom of a potted milkweed plant. I found two more chyrsalis laying on top of the paper towel that are attached to leaves they fell off the plant. I'll be re-locating all these chyrsalis to the hatchery today sometime.
I am not feeling well. Kids in my class have been sick and I think I am coming down with something, so I took off half a day from work and now I am going to go lay down for a little while. Later.
Becky, I hope you feel better soon!
If I had any mw to send I surely would, my plants are very spindly and I have 3 cats left. I have about 5 potted mw under grow lights and they just aren't growing very fast. A few months ago I was completely out and Paige very generously sent me some cuttings, but she may not have any this time of year.
You could post a message on the plant trade forum and see if someone has some.
Good luck, you are doing a wonderful thing for the Monarchs! Great pics too, that reptile cage is just like mine except mine is green.
Here's an artifical diet but must be started in the 1st or 2nd instar, and it's not cheap.
http://educationalscience.com/butterflydiets.htm
What a time Becky! I am having a hard time visualizing all of that, whew! So even your potted MW plants are eaten down? I was looking at some sites, and shopping today, and saw this neat little growing house/habitat. I was thinking that I could use something like this during the busy season here. Something to keep the plants outside with, a place where the BFs cant get to them. It doubles as a habitat too, of course. I have my eye on that $59 one..to the next one up.
http://www.educationalscience.com/greenhouses.htm
Toward the bottom, they go smaller and smaller..
Speedy recovery to ya, sorry your felling sick! Take it easy as much as you can. Being around kids can be a viscious cycle of geting sick and passing it around. Tell me about it!!
I'm feeling a little better. Hopefully, much more tomorrow, so that I will be up to going back to work. Thanks for the get well wishes.
I'm not going to worry about the cats that run out of food. I can only do so much. I've been purchasing potted milkweed off and on for the past week. I'm done. When the milkweed is gone, it's gone. Nature would be harsher. Something else that I have observed .... if the cats are in their 4 instar they will go into the chyrsalis stage earlier if their food runs out. The chrysalis is much smaller, but they seem to emerge just fine. They are just smaller butterflies. I guess it's a survival option that they have during times of low food supplies. They will also eat the trunk of the plant to the ground as well. They have that instinct to survive.
All the butterflies that have been emerging the past several days are all females. Interesting, since the first 3 weeks they were pretty much all males. I don't know where these females will go to lay eggs if they mate. Someone else's yard I suppose. I think the milkweed locally is pretty much gone from previous cats/butterflies.
I was outside before sunset and noticed that the Eastern Black Swallowtail cats are all over my dill. And ironically, one is chrysalizing right on the dill trunk. Odd. I also observed one of the other cats actually eating the dill seeds. I didn't think they would eat the hard seeds. But then again, the Monarch cats eat the milkweed seed pods. Go figure! It's probably pretty tasty and full of nutrients.
And I have quite a few GF cats all over my maypop vines. I haven't seen any GF or BST butterflies at all, but there are sure lots of the cats on my plants. Looks like I will be seeing more of the butterflies in a few weeks after they emerge from their chyrsalis. I can't imagine all these cats/butterflies this late in the season. I guess the season is different in central/south Florida. It really surprises me. I've never seen this many cats/butterflies in the Spring. Fall/Winter seems to be the time when they come here.
It was really funny today .... I walked out in the backyard where most of my milkweed is. It almost looked like snow floating around. It was actually milkweed seeds floating around in the air. About 20-25 seed pods around the yard burst open and out came the fluffy white floaters with seeds! Looked like an explosion of fluff! Everywhere! I collected as many open pods as possible, but most exploded and floated away before I could collect them.
Here's another photo of some BST cats. You can see the cat going into a chrysalis in the foreground and another cat in the background.
This message was edited Dec 11, 2006 9:47 PM
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