Interesting butterfly behavior

I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to get off-track on another specific thread. I apologize if I have done that to any threads. You know, one thought leads to another. Six degrees removed.

I was out in my yard for two hours this morning. I was just intrigued by all the activity going on. I observed numerous things which I wonder if anyone knows about.

1) GF were laying eggs on the trellis instead of the leaves/vines right next to it. Why?

2) Four female Monarchs showed up in my yard. (First time ever that I have had that many females hanging around. Usually just one or two.) Three were laying eggs in the 7 groupings of Scarlet Milkweed that I have in my yard. The biggest female was gorging herself on Milkweed nectar. I literally walked up to her and put my hand right next to her. She was not budging! Not frightened. Stood her ground on the flower. I have not released any females. Do you supposed she was raised and released locally? (Which might explain her lack of fear of humans.)

3) Another Monarch emerged today. Another male. This makes the 4th male this week. No females. Is that common for females to lay "male" eggs first and then female eggs a week or two later? I was thinking that the males probably take a week or two to mature to breeding age. At which time the females would be emerging. Or does it have something to do with the plant they are eating?

4) I observed several times bees and butterflies sharing the nectar on the same cluster of flowers at the same time. Didn't know that they would do that! Is that because there is plenty of nectar and no competition?

5) The Gold Rim Swallowtail came back but got spooked again. Do they normally fly very fast and only land for a few seconds? They don't fly at all like the BST.

6) I was able to get really, really close to almost ALL of the butterflies as long as I was moving very slowly. I did the same thing the other day and they all took off. I was trying to figure out what I was doing differently. And then I looked down and realized that I was wearing a medium green shirt that blended in with the plants. Does anyone know if wearing a certain color/colors works better than other colors? If so, I'm buying more green shirts!

7) I walked to the outside area of my backyard fence because one of the Passion Flower vines that I have doesn't seem to be used by the GF. I was thinking that perhaps it's the kind they don't like. Well, the branches on the other side of the fence have tons of chewed leaves. That side gets more sun it seems. Is that the reason they like that side of the fence to feast on? They lay their eggs on both sides of the fence.

Interesting observations! I will be sure to watch this thread for the answers/thoughts/opinions.

This doesn't really answer your questions about male/female monarch behaviour, but it's an interesting article about their differences

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/MaleFemale.html

Here's a photo of a GF egg on the trellis. I counted about 18 eggs on the plastic trellis near this one. CRAZY!!!

Here's one with the baby cat getting ready to come out of it's egg. Actually, if you look you'll see 2 eggs on the trellis in this photo!

Another interesting observation:

8) The butterflies seem to be drawn more to the nectar/host plants that I have in pots. I have the same plants in pots and in the ground around the yard. They can always be found on the potted plants. Anyone know why that might be?

Great questions Becky! I must have not got online on the 5th because I keep finding threads I missed. Here's my opinion:

1) My GF's lay eggs on the fence all the time! I just think they aren't very....smart. lol That or they just don't aim well. They might be weaker fliers than some or maybe since their host plant is a vine it is up where there usually is more wind. I'll usually see them bobbing up and down and going back and forth over the fence like they can't get control.

2) I have noticed lately that a lot of the Monarchs are more jittery than earlier in the season. Some are older and I assumed they were not "local". I guess I was thinking along the same lines that these weren't used to humans.

3) I have never kept track of any of my cats and butterflies. I finally even stopped keeping count of how many were inside. Just feeding them can be enough work! I have read a thread tho where someone did notice that they were releasing all of the same gender. I'll see if I can find it.

4) I see bees and butterflies and even big wasps feeding on the same flowers too. They all seemed to be minding their own business.

5) Never seen the Gold-rimmed ST. Is this the Polydamas?

6) I just read that butterflies are able to see the full color spectrum so you might be right about your shirt color. I'm usually able to get fairly close too. Maybe because I normally wear the same gardening tanks and they are green and blue.

7) Interesting observation. ??

8) Maybe the plant is easier for them to locate in a pot. Maybe other plants hide the color, shape, or scent of the host plant? It's so weird how they find them. I gave my neighbor's across the street a small passionvine earlier this year to put in their new bed. Within 2 weeks they had cats on theirs and my huge vine had none.

Paige - LOL! about the GF having a lower IQ and missing the plants when they lay their eggs! Too funny! I was just thinking about that again and I wonder if it is because the ants are on the PV. Perhaps they lay the eggs on the trellis in the hopes that the ants won't find them? I watched one GF lay her eggs and she seemed to lay them on the fence intentionally.

And yes - the Gold Rim also goes by the name Polydamas or Tailless Swallowtail (because it does not have the tails on the lower wings).

I would be interested in the thread about butterflies being the same gender if you are able to find it. Don't worry about it if you can't. There are so many threads, I have a hard time finding something unless I put it on "watch". I have 5 chrysalis (Monarchs) and 4 more cats about ready to morph. It will be interesting to see if perhaps the new butterflies will be females. I'll let you know.

I too love all your abservations Becky! Nice job!
The stand out query for me is the GF's laying eggs on the fence.
Struggle in an important part in the life of any BF.(ie. struggling to find their host food, and struggling to get out of their chrysalis). Without the latter they wont even have strength to fly. Maybe their mom knows if they make it off the fence onto the vine they will be stronger. ~Oh and the part about being less visible to predators too makes sense..

The first thing they eat is their own eggshell, and it is jamb packed with energy so they can crawl quite a way to their host. That would also make their appetite more voracious too... Oh well thats just a couple of my thoughts. Will watch this one too, thanks for opening it Beckaroo!

o/

I'm still voting for not a good aim. I don't believe they think anything but know things by instinct and don't think that only one would have that instinct. It's a plausable idea but it's not like ants can't get on the fence. Right? The info I read also says that GF's lay eggs on the underside of leaves and mine never do. They're right on top. See, back to the "not so smart" theory too. ;)

I'm still looking for that thread.

Thanks Deb and Paige for your ideas and possible conclusions on these interesting behaviors.

I am going to get a little off-track here.

I am also interested in the Bumble Bees I see all over the place. Some of them are HUGE! I go outside almost every morning (as the sun is coming up) before work. I have been noticing that there are bees on flowers. They look dead. But as the sun comes up and warms them they return to being active. 9) What I am wondering is why they do not head back to their nests? I am not talking about one or two stray bees, but quite a few of them. When I first noticed the bees like that I thought maybe pesticide or something was killing them. But then I realized they weren't dead, just in sort of a short hibernation state. I can't say whether this happens during the summer warm nights. Hadn't noticed it until recently. Our nights are down in the low 60's to high 50's currently. Any ideas? I googled for info and didn't find anything about this behavior.

ALSO ..... this is one that I am really wondering about. The media here had a big article on the "Killer Bees" invading Florida. Apparently, they are here. Do you already have them in Texas or other states?

10) What I want to know is how to avoid being stung by a swarm of them. From what I have read they only get aggressive if there are many of them, not just one or two killer bees. Seems it doesn't take much to set them off though. I honestly don't know if any of the honey bees in my yard are in fact "killer bees", but I have a LOT of bees. In the early morning, as the sun shines on various flowers, I see bees almost instantly all over them for the nectar. I don't know if I actually have the killer bees, I probably will soon if I don't already. With all the flowers, I'm attracting everything (it seems) to my yard .... good and ....bad.

I have had bees (both bumble and honey) get up in my face like they were checking me out and I always have one or two that make a point of buzzing right by my head/ears as if in warning me. I have yet to be stung by a bee. (Knock on wood!) And I am around them all the time when working in the yard. I try very carefully not make them feel threatened. I respect them and give them their space. But I have so many that it is almost unnerving.

The wasps so far aren't too bad either (as far as stinging). My husband got stung several times by wasps over the summer when he moved some outdoor furniture. Apparently there was a nest that he didn't know about attached to the furniture. I was stung twice in a one week period over the summer, too. Man, did it hurt!!! Major Ouch! I thought it was a bee or wasp. Turns out it was a horse fly. It took a BITE out of me! I HATE those bugs!!!! This large horsefly that would land on the side of my house and I felt that booger was watching me. (Eeek, gives me the creeps just thinking about that little rascal!) It finally disappeared. Hopefully to never return!

I don't understand why the snakes, anoles, and lizards don't eat THESE bugs. Oh no! They have to go after the helpless cats, butterflies, moths, etc. What good are they for my garden!!!! (Don't answer that! I know ...... they protect my garden from insects that eat my plants!) But isn't there something that is a predator to them? (Besides humans.)

These are the few things that I do NOT like about gardening. Otherwise, I love it!

This message was edited Nov 12, 2006 9:31 AM

This message was edited Nov 12, 2006 11:51 AM

I have a lot of bees and wasps here too. I'm not exactly certain what kind they are because it's hard to tell the difference and I just haven't had time to research that too.

I have a large red wasp that crawls all over my milkweed and passionvine and I assume it's looking for my cats. They can be aggressive. They will fly straight at my head and hit me but not sting me! At first I thought I was imagining they were doing that on purpose but it's been happening for about 3 years now! I just move to another area and they stop. I was out watching a hummer this year, just standing very still and POW one came and ran right into my forehead! They could also be lousy fliers too. lol A neighbor kid said these were hornets. ??

I have large bumble bees every year too and they never bother me but I stay back from them. This spring I had one that chased me around the yard about 3 times the first day he was here. Then the next day he chased me maybe 2, then by the 3rd day he knew who I was and never charged at me again. It was weird. I think that's what happens during the season, they just get used to us.

My son has a friend that is terrified of bees of any sort because he got stung by one that got trapped in the car. I explained to him how the bee was just scared and talked to him about how important they are. I showed him how I have them and they never bother me and one day I walked him out to my garden (he grabbed my hand) and I showed him how they didn't just attack us.

I don't know anything about killer bees and wouldn't have any idea if I had any. A few years ago my neighbor and I were standing in my backyard talking and we heard the weirdest thing I have ever heard. I can't even describe it but it sounded like a million bees and it flew over or around us. We both instantly thought KILLER BEES!

I think your bees are sleeping. Here's a thread I started this summer:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/629941/

Becky, if you could get an ID on that beetle, flea beetle of some sort?, then you could try some companion planting....for example.....flea beetles don't like catnip or many pests are repelled by onions. It might be worth a try.

Bees and wasps chase me around the garden, I feel like such a wimp too.....running around flailing my arms and screaming like a big baby. I've never had any sting me but if they could catch me I'm sure they would.

Are there too many to do the flick and dunk?
2 years ago I had a bad infestation of cucumber beetles on my butterly weed, they must have layed a million eggs in the soil. It took me weeks of flicking and dunking to finally get rid of all of them.

Paige - I am glad I am not the only one observing the bee situation. I, too, have been hit by the bees. Never stung, but definitely hit by them. I figured it was a warning from the bee and just backed off. Or shooed them away by flapping my arms. If they persisted, I'd go back on the screened porch until they settled down. Never got stung. I think you are right about any new bees in the yard. Seems most of them are used to me and just ignore me as long as I don't bother them. And they will move out of my way if I approach them slowly. Funny how they always go for our upper-body. How do they know that's where our head is? I've never been hit on my lower extremities. (Or at least not that I felt it.)

The bees "sleeping" in my yard are the bumble bees. I haven't seen any honey bees sleeping on flowers. It's so funny, because the first few times I observed this, I flicked them off the flower and then noticed them coming to. I was shocked, because I thought they were dead. lol Many were hanging upside down on the flower. I find several of them on my Powder Puff plant every morning sleeping. Now I just leave them alone. Did you notice them "sleeping" in warm night temps?

Here's a photo of one this morning before it "woke up". I just don't understand why they don't go back to their nest. Are they too full to fly? They do gorge themselves at dusk! lol Very odd.

This message was edited Nov 12, 2006 12:04 PM

fly_girl - Hmmmmm..... I like your idea of planting repelling plants next to the ones that the beetles like. I need to research that more. When you say "dunk", do you mean flick the beetles in something to drown them? I'm trying to get a visual on that idea.

Yes, I flick them in a bucket or jar of sudsy water....I do it to those annoying milkweed bugs all summer.

Loads of bees and wasps here. They leave me alone and I leave them alone.

However, I have two BIG green lynx spiders. One is on the cassia and one on my minneola orange tree. The one on the tree has a huge nest. I am wondering if I should leave it alone or get rid of it, cause I am afraid of having a million green lynx spiders around. Supposedly, they bite. Anyone know?

Becky, your sleeping Bumble bee is so interesting. It does seem rather lazy of them just to lay there, doesn't it? LOL! Don't they actually build nests underground? I would go out and watch for mine but I haven't seen any lately. My picture was taken in the summer months so it was definitely warm. They went to bed early too!

I have a mental picture of all of us outside flapping our arms and running from the bees! LOL! Why do they go for our heads? Another great question! Because they like to see us flap and dance around? It works!

I was reading about companion planting for beetles too. I don't think they like garlic either. I planted some radishes last year that were supposed to attract the cucumber beetles to them so you could use the bucket-o-death on them. I didn't notice any swarms on them tho but I think I planted them too late.

Oh Karen, I don't know if they bite (never researched it) but you just reminded me to get rid of one that was making an egg sack! We spotted it yesterday. I had a huge garden spider a few months ago (2 of them) and had to get rid of them because they were catching my butterflies. That's a NO-NO! That's why I was going to dispose of this one, but biting is a NO-NO too! eeekk!!

Lol...bucket-of-death, good name for it.

I don't think the Lynxes bite but they spit if you are near their eggs, so wear your sunglasses.

Those bf behaviors are interesting, I've always wondered why a bunch of cats will want the same branch, they all seem to want to cluster together and then they seem to get put out when another's antennae touches them and they swing their head up. Looks like they are threatening the other, have you seen that? Like they're going to duke it out with their heads.

fly_girl - My cats do that! And I believe that they do bite each other because some of my cats have scars on their backs. I have seen them head-butt each other, too! It gets pretty fierce until one of them backs away. And the bigger cats will eat the little cats. So don't mix them unless you have lots of plants and room to seperate them. And all cats eat the eggs if they are on a leaf where an egg is located. Survival of the strongest! It's a caterpillar eat caterpillar world out there. lol Spitting spiders .... whoa .... never heard of that before! That's disgusting! Didn't their mother teach them any manners? lol They'd get flicked out of their web by me for doing that!

Karen - I was out in my garden about 2 weeks ago and there were hundreds of baby spiders on my Mexican Flame Vine. There was a spider egg sack nearby which they hatched from. It made me think of the book, "Charlotte's Web". I loved that book as a child! So of course I didn't kill them. Now this is being optimistic .... but I thought that if I ever get hummers, all the spiders would be protein food for them. My yard is a banquet feast for hummers. Fortunately, the bees and butterflies and other creatures are enjoying it all. The migrating hummers should've stopped in at the "all-you-can-eat" restaurant on their way down to vacation in Miami!!! lol

Paige - The bumble bees do make nests. Though from what I read they are small nest and the bees move on after the season ends. Though I find that hard to believe because I seem to get more bumble bees each year. The more flowers I have the more bees! And I also have the honey bees. I have those red wasps that search the plants for any small cats or bugs that you have. I think they are just wasps. The hornets - if I remember correctly - have black and yellow stripes on their body. They can be highly aggressive. The killer bees actually resemble the honey bees. Very hard to tell them apart. They are only aggressive and swarm when there is large group of them. They can become agitated at the slightest provocation. Even loud noises such as a lawn mower will set them into a stinging swarm. So I am very cautious out in the yard in the morning now. There are so many bees that the backyard sounds like one large buzzing symphony. It's definitely amplified because there are so many! It makes me a bit jumpy when I am out there first thing in the morning. By late afternoon, it becomes less busy and quieter. Though there are still many bees out there. They are not as active at the end of the day from what I can tell. Another interesting fact is that the bees leave their scent on a flower which wards off other bees from drawing nectar from that particular flower. And a bee will feast off the same type of flowers until they switch to another kind of flowering plant as the days and weeks pass. Which makes the bees politically correct for the flowers that they are pollinating. lol But despite all the info I found, nothing about bees falling asleep on the flowers or plants they gather nectar from. I'd rather sleep in my own bed than in a strange place where I could be food for a predator. Seems very weird they would do that. LOL about the "bucket-of-death".

We definitely need to find out more info about planting companion plants. Onions, garlic, interesting! I heard that Marigold is another insect repellent. Don't know if that is true or not. Anyone have more info about this? Maybe we should start another thread for this topic! Any takers?

Spitting spiders! Geez, I'm glad I got the warning before I did it! I'm quite sure that along with the flapping and jumping that I would be screaming too! That's just too gross.

The bees that slept in that zinnia stayed there for at least a week, that I know of, because I would go check. And who knows how long they were there before I found them. It was just another one of those neat things you stumble upon.

I have a Datura planted by my back door and one night it had 59 blooms on it! It was beautiful. The next morning it was still open but I couldn't go outside because of all the bees on it! Talk about the yard buzzing! Bees are less active in the evening, which is the best time to spray for anything so you don't get the bees too.

I'm game for new threads, whether it's butterflies or not. I like to stay in this forum since it's my main focus and everything basically revolves around the butterflies.

Paige, maybe those bees had too much to sweet drink and decided it was safer to sleep over than fly away in their condition! Or they wanted to guard that "zinnia bar" that they found! LOL!

Seriously, it is a weird thing and super pictures. I wish you would post one over on the Bug Identification forum and see if anyone can give you an ID and explaination as to why they would do that. My Indigo Spires and Zinnias are loaded with bees most of the time. I will have to check for that behaviour.

Here's a few more photos of the bumble bees sleeping on the plants. These were taken at dusk tonight. I noticed they are just hanging onto the flowers/plants and seem to be tucked in for the night. I counted about 9 of them in my yard that I could actually find. There were probably more.

Two bumble bees sleeping together on a Powder Puff bloom. Must be a PJ party or a sleep-over! lol

One more bee sleeping on a milkweed plant. All were on different plants, so there doesn't seem to be a preference. Got me stumped!

OK so I am totally new to this (I am sure you will be able to tell) - but why are you taking them in & feeding? I came here for the hummers....and now a new interest....bought a bunch of butterfly host and nectar seeds for next year..... I blame y'all ;+}

I did some more googling about this and here's what I found:

Some of the bumblebees sleep in the open to defeat a parasite that will eventually kill them. By sleeping in the open they remain cooler slowing the parasites development and allowing them to continue provisioning for their young during the daytime.

http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en507/papers_1997/rempel.html

Bumblebees, Bombus spp., on the other hand appear to have successfully mastered the use of altered behavior for their own advantage. Mueller and Schmid-Hempel (1993) reported that the parasitized worker bumblebees stayed in the field overnight instead of returning to the nest. These workers spent significantly more time in cold areas than did nonparasitized workers. The cold temperatures experienced by the bumblebees retarded parasitoid development and decreased the parasitoid's survival chances. The parasitized worker's colony benefited from the prolonged foraging in the cold night air, and the worker had a prolonged life span as a result of the reduced development rate of the parasitoid. Poulin (1992) argues that these changes in behaviors of parasitized bumblebee workers are likely to be an adaptive response of the host resulting in greater inclusive fitness. He notes that this may be one of the few examples of Smith Trail's (1980) kin selected-host suicide hypothesis in practice in nature.

Do you suppose our sleeping bees are sick bees? I also read on the same forum that the nest may not be big enough to house all the bees, therefore some sleep outside. And another said that drone bees usually don't belong to a colony of bees and therefore sleep alone. So ..... lots of interesting theories and facts.

Very interesting Becky! I just love how little things can turn into great learning experiences! Why don't we love stuff like this when we are younger? lol

MQN, we don't mind if you blame us! :) It's a good thing! A lot of us do bring the cats (caterpillars) inside to insure that they make it all the way to the butterfly stage. We also get to watch them go thru the whole process and release the butterfly. It's VERY addicting, so make room in your garden for some new plants!

MQN - The survival rate for a caterpillar is pretty slim. Something like 1 out of 100. So to attract our beautiful butterflies to our garden, many of us raise cats and then release them when they become butterflies. Monarch butterfly raising is especially popular across the US because of their shrinking habitats.

Here are some links that have some useful info:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/666340/

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/662210/

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/butterfly/2004044550021472.html

http://home.neb.rr.com/monarchrose/raising.htm

Hand raising and releasing these beauties is fun and rewarding! We're doing our little bit for the butterfly population! :-)

So, this is not a Silence of the Lambs type behaviour?;+} 1 in a 100 huh! Keep learning something new (and something to be passionate about) about every day, thanks! Did not know a thing about hummingbirds a couple of years ago and now I could not imagine my life without em.....Saw only one butterfly (pretty sure was a monarch) last year but it was the first time in a LONG time....interesting threads.....looks like I have something else to obsess with....thanks guys I am sure I will be posting even dummer questions later....

MQN - There are NO dumb questions! Ask away!

I have another question for everyone who raises and releases butterflies:

One of my cats that went into it's chrysalis form had a small hole in the bottom. Some dark fluid leaked out before it stopped up. Now there is some black stuff clogging the hole and the chrysalis has hardened. It doesn't look normal. Has anyone had this happen to any of their cats/chrysalis? If so, did the butterfly emerge and was it okay.

I'm thinking that some of it's genetic material leaked out and it will be deformed or never emerge. (Possibly will die.) But so far it is green and kind of shriveled looking because of the fluid leak. Should I just wait to see what happens or remove it from my cage?

Here's a photo of what it looks like.

Here's how it looks compared to the other Monarch chrysalis.

Oh, that doesn't look good, I would discard it. I have had a few with a deformed chrysalis. They have eclosed okay but a wing will not open and will be deformed. They spend their days in the butterfly pavilion with Gatorade. It's sad but I can't bear to do away with them.


Forgot to say........ask Paige, she will probably know what to do.

This message was edited Nov 14, 2006 10:02 PM

Yeah, looks like it's a goner. It happens tho. :( I'd probably remove it from the cage but be careful and don't let it leak or get on anything. Maybe cut the cremaster so and let it fall into a baggie then close it and throw it away.

I've had deformed BST's but not Monarch's. Usually it's because they fell or got trapped somehow and couldn't hang right.

Okay! I thought I needed to post this information. Had something happen about an hour ago. I am so mad!

I was out in the yard checking all my milkweed pods to grab the ones that had ripe seeds to harvest. I found a number of Monarch cats on the milkweed .... so of course I picked the leaves off and temporarily put them in the container that a bigger cat was in. Well, I had to stop momentarily to help my daughter with her hair. When I came back, 20 minutes later, I saw the 2 smaller cats were hurt. Apparently, the larger cat attacked them and severely bit them clear through their bodies. There was the "green" blood everywhere! The obvious intent was to kill them. The larger cat succeeded because they both did die. I was so mad! I know that it does happen, but this was just a few minutes and the bigger cat literally made a bee-line right for these 2 smaller cats to eliminate them! Grrrr ... The cage isn't that small and when I laid the leaves with the smaller cats in the cage, I didn't even lay them next to the larger cat. Somehow this cat knew they were there and decided to defend his cage. I have never had this happen before with a "highly aggressive killer" cat. Scary. I wonder what kind of behavior it will have as a butterfly. I wonder if it is a male? Very disturbing!

Just wanted to warn everyone raising cats to be careful of this situation. Be warned!

You just brought up one of my concerns after reading through those links, the Garden Web link says....

"Non-gregarious caterpillars can become cannibalistic if they are too crowded,especially in later instars. Also avoid mixing caterpillars that are different sizes. Larger cats will often eat smaller ones."

My first thought was how do I know if its a "social" cat or a loner? But, more importantly will I be able to take the emotional devastation of "viruses" and mortality rates...........

Great links most of my questions are taken care of, now just have to wait till next year. I have "naturally occuring milkweed patch" just on the other side of my fence (these were before thought of as "the neighbors weeds") and parsley on my side. Bought some nectar and host plant seeds on the web the ones from Onalee have already arrived...... COME ON SPRING..........

Wow Becky, Killer cat!! That rascal! Maybe putting smaller ones with a larger I suppose that can happen. I think he just meant to kill though, not eat..ya think? I added one to an existing cage where 2 of 3 had already pupated, but the smaller one was about half the size of the other one. Guess he felt lonesome after the other two closed in, one by one they left him/her all alone.. Wonder if that one was just defending his/her food supply? That's some wild behavior though I think, it must have ha you rubbing your eyes. Shocking!!

MQM~ The cats you intend to attract are not going to eat each other, especially left out in the wild. Butterflies that lay eggs singly will not be gregarious, I think. Black Swallowtails Queens, and Monarchs aren't that kind anyway. So your safe! They aren't natural canibals...

When handling the cats the virus thing is a real issue. They are very susseptible to human germs, and they breathe through spiracles, which are usually touched when they are handled. The other thing is cat-scat in the cage. The cage has to be bleached between broods, and cleaned out daily. When they are outside in the wild they will never have those viruses. The mortality rate is high when they are out in the wild because of wasps and birds also, and only less if keepers are careful that they don't get a virus.

Sounds like you are ready! Me too! I just got my little Spicebushes in the mail today! I bought 2, and they sent 3 and one itty bitty one I potted separatly. :-)
We have been trading seeds for Host and Nectar Plants for a couple months, though I think the cooler weather has some of the folks doing less with their beds. If can't find the threads let me or Becky know:-)

Deb - Yes, he just meant to kill the smaller cats not eat them. But what surprised me is that he had to hunt them down and take a couple fatal bites out of both of them all in a span of 20 minutes or less. Usually they don't move around that much, but that cat must of been on a mission to destroy! He was crawling all over the cage like nobody's business! That's what surprised me. And then he went on a feeding frenzy on the milkweed leaves afterwards, probably to get the taste out of his mouth. Do you suppose he was an assassin cat? LOL Unbelievable! Downright creepy!

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that today at work, one of my students loves to hold the cats. She helped me pick some milkweed leaves to put in their cage. Well, when she was holding one of the little cats, it kept trying to eat her finger. No kidding! Another thing I've NEVER seen cats do. I think it tasted or smelled the milkweed sap on her hand. Of course, it couldn't break the skin on her finger, but it was sure going to town trying! She thought it was funny, while I was a bit alarmed. I sure don't want any of my students getting bit by any of the cats. Sheesh!

Note to self, avoid Sebastian Florida where there are vicious cats.