Lilium formosanum and phillipinense

Leftwood, I grow formosa lilies from seed as a hobby, unfortunately I'm not a photographer. I usually put out a hundred plus gallon sized containers each year on a 5 acre piece of Alabama clay that I putz around on in retirement. They can tolerate large clumping here - my record (read, the plant's record) is 64 blooms on a single clump. The seeds propagate easily here, and I do all of my propagating outside in our natural greenhouse.:)) I keep a few for my backyard garden, but they tend to overwhelm other plants in a city residential garden. That beautiful little clump at the walkway may be 6 - 7' tall next year. I just love the plants. The seed is easily collected. I never stake these tall plants. They may bend a bit at the top, but they never have required staking. By the way, after 2 - 3 years, I dig up clumps and donate them to fundraisers. I give newly grown seed clumps to knowledgeable gardeners.

Thanks for the info on clumping tolerance, Peony01. But I will need to dig this fall anyway, because the formosanum and phillipinense plants (several each) are too close together. I think I would be unable to differentiate the two species' bulbs if I waited another year. The plus is that when I post pics, you all will see both species together. Phillipinense is still dilly-dallying, but my formosanums have the same desireable curling that someone else's on this forum does (Robert?).

I hesitate to get into this discussion, because I can assure you I am not an expert, but I must tell you , the pic of the bloom that Robert has posted does not appear to be the same as the blooms on what I think are formosa lilies that I grow. I'm going to see if pictures that my wife has taken of what I am calling formosa lilies are the same. I hope I haven't added to the confusion, if there is any.

All viewpoints wanted, no, needed here. Peony01, I am sure we are glad you offered your two cents. I must also confirm his flower is different from the norm, but I don't know if that's enough to question membership in the formosanum clan. As a good, contemporary example: Lilium speciosum var. rubrum and L. speciosum var. gloriosoides. They are very different, yet both the same species. Somewhere in the world, there must be a botanical key for Phil and Formy.

Indeed the desireable curling I saw on a different thread, and the flowers were a more traditional formosanum form, as mine are.

My first phillipinense is just beginning to open today. Still identical to formosanum in flower form so far. About the only thing definite I can say at this point is the anther color. My formosanums are brown as soon as the petals begin to separate. (Anyone else notice this?) The phillipinense anthers are green, just like Robert's pic on this thread. We will see what they will be doing in the next few days. Still taking film photos.

Rick

Rick, What you describe happening also happens to what I grow as formosa lilies. That's one of the things I noticed on the flower pictured above.

gemini_sage~

That clump is trying to meet people of all heights face-to-face. The eight stems range from about 4 feet to over six. Accommodating, n'est-ce pas?


peony01~

Glad you chimed in!

I would love to know differently about my lily and would call it by it's rightfull name if it isn't formosanum. I've been looking at quite a lot of web-based formosanum pix and find that most do not have the undulations mine do and more seem to be pure white on the outside rather than having any rosy tints. Some I have seen look more like L. regale, but of course are not. (L.regale blooms much earlier.)

No doubt growers have selected most formosanums to have the "perfect" form, lacking the curls and waves my exhibit. Those are certainly "pristine" in form, with much to be admired, but I much prefer the unusual (?) form mine take, and as I was saying, I would like to see it become even more pronounced through breeding.

Robert.

Most definitely! Yours is a very pleasing form.

I agree!

Robert, I was more concerned that the things I've been giving away as formosa lilies, weren't!LOL Heck, the flower is beautiful. The stem and foliage appear to be the same as that of the plant I am growing.

peony~

I get you. The main thing for me in finding an identity was the blooming in August and the height, combined of course with the leaf form and trumpet-shaped blooms. L. longiflorum blooms late June-July and is usually quite a bit shorter (the one I had anyway) but some folks say theirs are about as tall as formosanum.

Robert.

I found an article on variations in Taiwan of L longiflorum

http://ejournal.sinica.edu.tw/bbas/content/1999/1/bot41-07.html

Interesting,

http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/11/1234

"The elongation of pollen tubes after self-pollination was enhanced by exogenous cAMP and by pertussis toxin or cholera toxin, which activates adenylate cyclase."

from: http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/11/1234
Whoa!

Wonder if sneezing a cold over them works?

Robert.


This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 3:07 PM

Actually, by George I think I've got it. If the correlation holds true for other lilies, the self incompatibility might be over come by somehow adding cAMP. (I suppose that is what they said in the further discussion that I was too lazy too read.)

Here's a bit about cAMP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_adenosine_monophosphate

Robert.

Yep Robert, sneeze on them but drink your coffee first!

Here's a height comparison of longiflorum, formosanum, formosanum var. pricei, and philippinense: (All are approx. depending on cultural diffs.)

longiflorum: 3 feet (40 inches or 1m)
formosanum: 6-7 feet (72-84 inches or 152-183cm)
formosanum var. pricei: 1.5 to 2 feet. (18-24 in. or 46 to 61cm)
philipinense: 3 feet. (36 in or 92cm)

Ref. http://www.floridata.com/ref/l/lili_for.cfm

Robert.
Correcting bad math.......


This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 8:54 PM

If that phillipinense height is true, it could be a pretty easy way of telling the difference. Can't tell where he got his info though.

L formosanum, 20-200cm (8-80") inc. var. pricei

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/formosanum.htm

L longiflorum, 45-90cm (18-36")

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/longiflorum.htm

L philippinense 90cm (36")

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/philippinense.htm

I was under the impression L philippinense grew taller than that.

I think I came across one like yours Robert, but I don't remember what it was!

All I can say is this is the first year my phillipinense have even grown stems, and they are 42 inches tall. Although I think we should expect larger growth in garden situations.

Darnit Jarnit! Where *is* that curly one ?????

Thanks for posting those links. I've been to that site before but this time I discovered Google Scholar. Cool.

Robert.

Well thanks for the tip Roberrrrrt!

That should give us more to confuse us!

http://scholar.google.com/

I'll just have to try to go back to some of the places I was searching before to see if I can find it. I thought I would remember and was so busy at the time!

I found this article on temp. affecting leaf and flower development in L longiflorum, the link on these often doesn't work and the article isn't supposed to be able to be read, but the summary at the bottom states

"Stem elongation and leaf orientation in Lilium longiflorum Thunb. were influenced more by the difference (DIF) between day temperature (DT) and night temperature (NT) than absolute DT or NT from 14 to 30 C. Plant height and internode length increased 129 and 382%, respectively, as DIF (DT-NT) increased from -16 to 16 C as compared to only 15 and 58% when either DT or NT was increased from 14 to 30 C, respectively. Leaf orientation, defined as the angle between a line perpendicular to the stem and the line from the leaf base to the leaf tip, increased 43$^circ$ (leaves became more upright) as DIF increased from -16 to 16 C. In contrast to plant height, internode length, and leaf orientation, leaf and flower length were influenced more by absolute temperature than DIF. Leaf and flower length decreased 32 and 14%, respectively, as NT increased from 14 to 30 C. DT had little effect on either leaf or flower length. The influence of DIF on stem elongation suggested that thermomorphogenesis was not a function of total plant carbohydrate or carbohydrate translocation. Instead, DIF appeared to influence the endogenous gibberellin content or the response of plant tissue to gibberellin. Similarities between thermomorphogenic plant responses and photomorphogenic plant responses suggested that these two processes may be related with respect to their perception and/or transduction."

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9122(198901)76:1%3C47:TILL%3E2.0.CO;2-4

Having lived in Taiwan for 6 1/2 years, I guess I should know more about this plant, but I'm just a lazy old gardener in contented retirement. I don't think I've seen L Philippinense. I have 5 acres I putz around on, and I mass plant formosan lilies with daylilies and stokes' astors around their bases. Looks sort of neat throughout the growing season. It seems that not many people grow the plant. I'm surprised to see so much scientific based discussion of the plants. I now have more information on the plant than I've ever had. Thanks.

The plethora of data on these species stem from longiflora's use as the American Easter lily. Always striving for the best genes for stoutness, fullness, ease of bloom etc, for the trade. And now with the xformolongi, no need for vernalization. And still striving . . .

I got my scanner working fairly decently, so now I have pics!

Assuming the original ID was correct:
In the right foreground is Lilium formosanum.
In the background is Lilium phillipinense.

Lilium formosanum

Lilium formosanum - dark striped backs
Lilium phillipinense - greenish backs

Not much difference between these at all. Nicely curled though.

Lilium phillipinense looking straight at you
Lilium formosanum facing left

It looks like the pollen of each is slightly different color also. How about the stigmas? How do they compare in color between the two types?

Stigmas are identical. So is the anther pigment, but as was noted prior, formosanum pigment maturity(or whatever) is far ahead of phillipinense relative to flower bloom stage. Philly's anthers are not lighter in color, they are still a mix of the light green, and brown pigment color. The formosanum flower in the last pick is 1-2 days older than the phillipinense, and you can see the anthers have already begun to shrink.

Well they are both quite lovely. I haven't tried either yet but I have a lot of formosanum seed on hand so maybe I will grow that one from seed. Maybe it will bloom next year-- I have heard that they are quick.

From your pictures Leftwood, it looks like I have phillipinense rather than formosum. Not one of my flowers thus far have any hint of red on the back.

Mine were seeds in January Pardalinum, and they have been blooming for about 3 weeks now. I will try to get a decent picture when it quits raining.

my spelling :-(

This message was edited Sep 11, 2006 8:45 AM

I wish we had rain. It has been about 3 months now. Now I am getting excited about starting them from seed!

I had always thought the dark striping on the backs of formosanum flowers were typical and characteristic of the species. But since I have been doing searches on the web about same in the last month, I find many, many do not. Too many to be all misidentified. I conclude that there is much diversity in the species, but I prefer the striping.

Someday I will discover the defining characteristic(s) between the two species. So far, all I have found is the height differentiation, which my plants, so far, are not following. They are still young. But I am not 100% sold that I really have both species, rather than two forms of formosanum.

Oh Oh Oh ! ! ! This could be exciting!

Just got a message from Markus at the-genus-lilium.com : he says that the site has just been updated:

especially the "lilium basics" may be of interest covering the basic
characteristics of lily species as well as the systematics. also most
of the species have been updated with new and also comparative
information.

So I hightailed it over there. Now remember Pard talking about the pollen "color" we see is actually not from the pollen itself:
Well, according to the site
formosanum pollen is yellow
phillipinense pollen is brown
And I checked to make sure the German translation was correct (sometimes they goof up).

Except my formosanums have finished blooming for several days now, and I can't tell. Grrrh!

Rick

PARD, YOU ARE A GODDESS ! ! !

There is a discussion on the yahoo group now. According to John L. in Denmark the defining characteristic between the two is a blue stigma on the philly. I checked the lily register and it is not mentioned nor in McRae's book. McRae claims that formy has dark purple stems. My theory is that since they grow so easily from seed and have been in commerce for some time (formy is considered a noxious weed in Australia) there can be no defining characteristics between the two. Just a guess on my part.

Didn't occur to me that there would be two groups there. I don't get that kissing analogy for the two other species - must be a Danish(or European) thing, or I live in cave. Both are possible.

A blue stigma . . . one would think breeders would be doing everything to introduce that color into the lily color pallet.

It all seems pretty enigmatic to me. But there must have been an original reason why there was a differentiation of philly and formy to begin with. Whether it was or is true, could still be debated or dismissed, and that would put the question to rest for me.

The kissing analogy is just a comparison of looks I think. You know, brownii is to formy as sis is to granny. In other words brownii can't be mistaken for the others. Weird, I agree. Interpretation gets worse if you read fieryclouds posts.

As for the colors of pollen, everyone calls the colored stuff pollen and it can at times be definitive in identification. I will continue to call it pollen, McRae calls it pollen, descriptions in the register call it pollen. You have my permission to continue to call it pollen!

I have seen lilies with blue/dark purple stigmas, it's not rare. I think Golden Star Gazer is one. The intense color does not persist through the life of the bloom though.

The original differentiation of philly and formy is native habitat. Philly from the Philippines and formy from Formosa (Taiwan). These two are compatible and I wonder if over the years of commercial production they have become "contaminated". I guess to ensure you have the pure specie you would have to go to the native habitats and steal them, then pay the phyto to get them into the states.

I am afraid that over the next few days I must defect from lilies to deal with digging and prepping irises for the local society sale. I feel like a traitor....