Lilium formosanum and phillipinense

My formosanum and phillipinense both have about another week to go before bloom. But that may be because they are (were) not mature bulbs. They were started from small bulblets and this is the first season for their blooming. Being closely related, phillipinense seems a tad ahead of formosanum. What is the normal order of bloom with these in respect to other lilies?

Rick

I noticed my L philippinense has a bud on this morning, 1 out of 8 has anyway. I started them last year from seed and over wintered them in a cold greenhouse, they made nice little bulbs and hardly died back, even with a quite hard winter.

They did get a bit waterlogged when I put them outside in their pots, and it was a while before I got them in my new bed, but they did grow.

The budded one is the biggest, but only short yet. I took a pic, not downloaded yet. I imagine next year they will be bigger, if they survive in the ground, I think they should after suffering the last cold winter.

Rick, mine are just budded now. 2nd yr. for being in the ground, but have lots of starter plants coming.
Cold winter got all of mine a few yrs., ago, but hoping to keep them this time in a more protected place and very heavily mulched.

Here's my mini budded plant

My formosanums have started last week. Here's one clump.

Last year one bloomed in late June while the others waited til August. This is normal. I read that "they know when to bloom" and will do so when they're ready--sometimes very early but mostly late.

The yellowing is due to the soil being very thin and the bulbs not being as deep as they would prefer.

Robert.

This message was edited Aug 16, 2006 1:10 PM

This is the second season for both of my species. Received small bulblets the fall prior. This spring both seemed to be happy putting up grassy leaves until late June they started to produce stems. Now I will have many blooming, and one with three buds.

The suggestion of blooming when they want seems viable, much like controling gladiolus blooming depending on when you plant. We'll have to see.

But Maxine and Robert: what other lilies do you have that just bloomed, are blooming or will be blooming?

Rick

Most of my lilies are done blooming. Look under the web site on Daves that says possibly last of my lilies and you should see what I had blooming last.
Scherarade still has blossoms opening yet. Spelling on that last lily name, please excuse.

Hey Maxine-- don't try to spell it, just call it Schez!!

Rick~

The formosanums are the only true lilies I have left to bloom this year. (I have Crinums reblooming). Other plants still blooming or yet to bloom, but the formosanums are always the grand last hurrah of summer in my yard.

Robert.

I started these from seed this Jan. and set them out in late May. I din't think they were going to do anything and now look!

It looks like I have about 18 seedling and I think all but 1 has a bud on it. Quite a few have 2 and this enegetic little one has 3!

Wish they were taller.....kind of hidden behind the elephant ears.

Amazing that they come to flower so quickly.

Lilyfan, yours are much farther ahead of mine. I started mine in April and set them out in my cold frame holding bed. Checked the other day, and the little rascals are coming along just fine, but no blossoms. Didn't figure that I would get any!

Rain, wonderful rain. We recd. 1' on Sunday and maybe 1/2" this morning. Made setting out iris wonderful. Love playing in the mud, it was still sprinkling when I went out at 6:30am.

It is apparently not uncommon for formosanum var. pricei to bloom the first year from seed. Although I would expect it to be more likely farther south than Iowa, I would think that it would be probable for same with the straight formasanum species.

Lilyfan, I would worry about your "dwarf" plants. Just wait until next year. They will be much taller. I have some friends whose formosanums grow 7 feet every year.

The first season of growth for my bulblets of both formosanum and phillipinense remained juvenile. No stems (even non-blooming) were produced. Is this the case with you also, Maxine?

I am reading (finally) the June bulletin of the North Star Lily Society. It has an article by Neil Anderson of the U of Minn. perennial breeding program. Title: Novel traits in the Genus Lilium: Their Discovery and Breeding Potential. It seems to be touching on this thread's subject (and more). Will report back.

Rick


This message was edited Aug 17, 2006 3:57 PM

I was doing a bit of web surfing last night and ran into Heronswood new site. I didn't realize they offered so many different species. You might want to check them out.

I had read that about formaosanums blooming the first year from seed. I lost the seed I had saved due to incorrect storage, but I plan to start some next year from seed--maybe have a hedge of them!

I saved some pollen from "Dizzy" (Oriental) and "Pink Perfection" (Trumpet) that bloomed earlier this season, to cross with the formosanum, just to keep it interesting. I really hope the Dizzy takes!

Robert.

Robert, that sounds like a good cross. Let us know how you come out, OK?

I have seedlings that I have to transplant any time to a permanet place instead of in my cold frame box's.

Think my brain is on vacation, as I can't spell worth a hoot this morning.

I also read that L philippinense can flower in it's first year if started early, with a longer season than we get I can see that could be so.

I have a second one with a bud on!

Robert, I wish I had done that, too late to save some now, Dizzy might have crossed nicely with L phil. but I think they are too small yet to make seed. Next year! Good luck with yours.

I'm not sure about how to winter these and L. nepalense. We get so much fluctuation down here, I thought I might dig one clump and winter it under the house along with some other questionably hardy bulbs (like L. nepalense) and mulch the other two clumps rather heavy and go from there.

How do yours winter up there in zone 4 Leftwood?

Maxine, I did start mine 3 months earlier, I wonder if that extra growing time under lights in the house made the difference. We are having a blessed rain today!

I received my little bulblets of both species in September from a trade from someone on the west coast. Leaves seem evergreen as they still were rich green when the snow fell, and showed no inkling of color turning. However they are not evergreen in Minnesota as they disappear by spring. Cognizant of their probable marginal survival here (yet not wanting to cover the leaves with soil), I planted them in a 3 inch depression in the garden, for better winter temperature moderation. After the ground froze, I mulched about 6 inches (after settling). I use shredded oak leaves. It's weed free and for me, plentiful.

For formosanum, I suspect there is a decided difference in cold tolerance, depending on the oringinal source of the plant's genes. Of course, those from higher elevations in the mountains are presumably more cold hardy. Mine, I can't really say how hardy they are yet, but there has been no discernable winter injury so far. My friends do nothing for their formosanums in winter, although their lilies do reside about 3 feet from the south side of their house. Mine are at least 100 ft from any building.

This fall, I plan to seperate my formosanum and phillipinense clumps, as I am sure the little plants have now outgrown there proximity to each other. It will be very interesting to see how far they have pulled themselves down into the soil.

Rick

wallaby~

The question to myself: Am I ready to get into "Embryo Culture at Home for Fun and Profit"? Where *will* I put the lab?

Robert.

Same place I would put one! First start the programme, find the space later! One can be inventive when one needs.

Rick, how long have you had the Phillipinense [boy, thats a long word to spell with out looking]?
Is that local to zone 4a? Or are you a zone 3?

I am in zone 4a. I have had L. phillipinense through two winters now. The first was rather mild with temps only reaching -21 F. But it was also almost snowless that winter for me. The frost in the area went way deeper in the soil than normal. This past winter, temps went to -25 to -28 F (can't remember). Snow was still less than normal. Amost completely lacking until January, but good in February.

Of course, phillipinense is not native to North America, and I don't know anyone in Minnesota who grows it, let alone even mention it in passing. No clue as to its hardiness. The bulblets were offered to me, and being the species lily nut I am, I jumped at it. (Thanks Clay!)

Rick

L. philippinense I thought was not very hardy, it's a non-native Florida plant

http://www.plantatlas.usf.edu/main.asp?plantID=341

http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/1050/index.html

I am surprised it grows in such a cold place.

Leftwood, it will be interesting to hear how deep your babies went in response to the two winters they survived. Be sure to also let us know how big the bulbs have become.

I do believe I will go ahead with my plans as stated above and hopefully some of them will make it through our ever fluctuating winters. I have access to bags of leaves during the raking season and will most likely collect a pickup load of them for mulching my tender and newly planted babies.

Well this wouldn't be the first time I have received misidentified plants. On the other hand, many of the lilies in that genus section are surprisingly hardy.
If anyone knows a good Asian lily species key, I'm all ears. Phillipinense isn't listed in China's eflora.

While the initial stages of grow - the "grassy" leaves and growth up to half elongation of the stems - on both species looked identical, differences are emerging. Of course, growth patterns vary due to genetics and environment, but as these grow adjacent to each other, I thought some comparisons might be useful. So far:

phillipinense leaves settle to an aspect of near right angles to the stem.
formosanum leaves remain angled upward, say 30 degrees from horizontal.

p buds do not have the characteristic dark stripes of f.

p buds are held out more than f.

It also seems the f flowers are developing at a faster rate.

Rick

Thanks for the info, Leftwood.

I'm thinking I have "Phil" not formosanum. Can you confirm?

Robert.

Robert, I was wondering the same thing. But there seem to be so many pics on the web with unstripped formosanums. In addition, McRae describes the species as "generally with a pink tint along the midrib". Not the "characteristic dark stripes" that I am familiar with. And one more thing: upon further observation of my two species only 2 days later, I can report that the more outward aspect of the phillipinense buds was only due to a later development relative to formosanum buds. Now both species' buds hang identically.

This was another reason why I hoped someone would know of a key to differentiate the two species.

Also happened to read in McRae's book: "In 1976 Hiroshi Myodo reported hybridizing L. formosanum with L. speciosum[in the oriental section]." No further information is given. McRae usually comments if he thinks such reported crosses are improbable, so I would believe it to be true. Did Myodo employ embryo rescue? Unknown.

Rick

Leftwood~

I've never seen even a hint of red or rosy blush on the buds. While every now and then a bloom will hang just a bit high or low (prolly due to weight) they are mostly straight out.

Robert.

http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/galleries.htm

Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but go to Section 6

Hey thanks Beak! Lots of info there. Can't believe I somehow hadn't found that one yet!

Which was also going to be my next job, to dig my species lists from my favourites,

http://www.lilies.org/speciesgallery/species.html

http://www.lilyregister.com/register/

http://www.deflorum.com/lilium/species.html

Add this

http://www.efloras.org/browse.aspx?flora_id=3&start_taxon_id=118558

http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/images/unknown/Swoszowski-Tran.htm

http://www.lilyseed.com/species.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/lilium-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lily

http://132.236.163.186/cgi-bin/dol/dol_terminal.pl?taxon_name=Lilium&rank=genus

http://www.plantamed.com.br/GEN/Lilium.htm

I see that John Lynegard [spelling on his name] is listed with some of his lilies.

Will check and see if I still have his web site showing his lilies.

Great bunch of links, folks. Thanks!

Love that hillside covered in lilies at http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/formosanum.htm
the 6th picture.

Robert.

Reporting back on:
"Novel traits in the genus Lilium"
some interesting trivia:

--Lilium formosanum and L. longiflorum crosses are called L. xformolongi.
--formosanum is day neutral for flower initiation.
--seemingly all xformolongi crosses do not need vernalization (a cooling period) to commence flowering.
--Consequently reblooming is a trait of all xformolongi. (New stems are continually produced.)
--In areas where frost is not a factor, xformolongi can be in constant bloom the entire year.
--longiflorum has been successfully crossed with asiatics and oriental with embryo rescue techniques.
--Cultivars like Lorina, Prima, Pirate and Scheherazade that show reblooming tendencies are likely candidates for crossing.
--"Other likely parental candidates include class1 lilies, L. martagon, which initiate and develop flowers the same year."

Rick

Well, Rick, you've really been busy. Thanks for the info about xformolongi. Sounds like a great lily for the deep south. It must be a fabulous thing to be able to see it boom year-round.

Robert.

And my first flower opened yesterday. If you recall in the beginning of this thread, I said phillipinense was a tad ahead in growth.

And the winner is . . . rat-a-tat-tat --- (that's supposed to be a drum roll, LOL)

Formosanum! By a long shot. Phillipinense looks like it has several more days to go yet.

Rick

[applause] Voiceover: "And the crowd is going wild!"

Hope you can get pix of both.

Robert.

Robert, I love that tall, stately clump in your pic! Right up at nose level as you walk the path.