Messenger questions

They say 2 day after fertilizing and that the only thing that can be applied in or with S & G is Bill's Fert., their fish emulsion product.
Beyond that I have no clue Robin.
Sidney

Good to know!

Spray-N-Grow is iron sulphate (coperas) and zinc chloride with micro nutrients.
Go to this site and click on MSDS.
http://www.spray-n-growwholesale.com/sngws.htm

Some fertilizers are complete, e.g. Miracle Grow. Holly-Tone. If you are using a plain NPK in 25 libra (lb.) bags, you should be using this. It seems to be geared for Ericales (heathers, azaleas etc.) and Rosales (blackberry, apples, &c.)

Hmm I am not so scientific in my assessments, but would guess this is a product that would compete w/ SuperThrive?
I did note on Messenger's Mighty Plant that "micronutrients are included". I use superthrive fairly regularly for one reason I live in an area w/ heavy clay soils.

April, usually clay has a lot of micronutrients, I wish there were more clay in my annual beds-someday I may take the top layer off and dig down and get some of the clay back up into the bed.

Harpin is listed on the Material Safety Data Sheet, for Mighty Plant, but doesn't say the amount.
Click on MSDS on the bottom right. It is just a fertilizer, better than a NPK only, not as good as Miracle Grow.
http://www.edenbio.com/garden/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=36

aprilwillis
Your Superthrive MSDS eludes me. I suspect "snake oil". The vitamins and hormone claim, I think it is a competetor for Fertilome B-1. It is thiamine (a.k.a. B-1) with the rooting hormone IBA. You spray the roots when transplanting.

http://fertilome.com/MSDS/HiYield/Fertilizers/HY%20Vitamin%20B1%20MSDS.pdf.

Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum, plaster) is touted for loosening clay. If Calcium is the predominent ion in your clay it wouldn't do anything. Magnesium from magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts) out ranks calcium and would replace calcium or other ions in your clay. On your side of the Mrs. Sippi soil magnesium is adequate. In the eastern states, rose growers add one cup per bush every spring.



This message was edited May 19, 2006 8:15 AM

Mighty Plant does have, has not changed, Harpin: http://www.edenbio.com/garden/images/stories/File/PDF%20FILES/Labels%20and%20MSDS/04.0611%20MightyPlant%20MSDS.pdf

In case the link doesn't work this is off the MSDS:
COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
OSHA ACGIH
MATERIAL CAS # PEL TLV
Urea 57-13-6
Potassium Nitrate 7757-79-1
(containing up to 5% sodium nitrate) 7631-99-4
Monopotassium Phosphate 7778-77-0
Citric Acid 15245-12-2
Boric Acid 10043-35-3
Copper EDTA 14025-15-1
Manganese EDTA 15375-84-5
Iron EDTA 15708-41-5
Zinc EDTA 14025-21-9 blished
Ammonium Molybdate 7631-95-0 5mg(Mo)/m3 5mg(Mo)/m3
Sodium Thiosulfate 10102-17-7
or 7772-98-7
Harpin Technology Extract

I think what you interpreted was this line:

Harpin Technology Extract None Not Established Not Established
"None" is under the heading CAS #, next heading is OSHA PEL and the last heading ACHIH TLV

It doesn't mean that there is no Harpin in the product.



As for SuperThrive, it has been around forever, oh ok for a long time. Everybody that I know/knew in the hort business uses/used it. People who use it are convinced of it's benefits, those who don't like it or see a benefit are absolutely entitled to their oppinion as we all are about every product, Mightly Plant and Messenger included.

Mind you I live in Texas but I am not a native which makes me one of very few people in TX who is not running around saying things like "Gig 'em Horns!" Don't ask me what it means because I don't know; but what I do know it that Texas A&M has one of the finest Agriculture schools in the country and if they are comfortable recommending SuperThrive then I am more than comfortable using it and recommending it.
But that's just me.

You are right. Thanks for setting me straight. None meant no CAS#.

When checking the link I had posted I found this. This is the Eden product we should be using. It is 3% harpin.
N-Hibit CST
www.edenbio.com/usa/agriproducts/ documents/nhibit/nhibitcst-msds.pdf

Yeah!

UUallace, are you a farmer? or in the plant business? I couldn't find a price for the Ag products.
Just wondering cause I get all I can handle from Messenger.
Sidney

Here is the scoop on the harpin protein products. Mighty Plant does contain harpin protein. It also contains a water soluble fertilizer with N-P-K and micronutrients. Messenger contains 3% harpin protein and no fertilizer. Both are best applied foliarly. N-hibit CST also contains harpin protein but it is a seed treatment used in cotton/soybeans/corn. It should not be used as a foliar treatiment like Messenger and is not sold in the home garden markets. However this seed treatment is sold to home gardneners under the name Messenger Seed Treatment (the puffer).

Since we are getting technical here....can anyone speak about GA3? I would like to know more about it-and when would you apply it and how much. I have heard it is tricky to use without some expxerience.

My knowledge about GA3 is pretty limited other than it is Gibberellic acid. Gibb is a plant hormone used to improve seed germination and change plant growth and size. Gibberellic acid can also influence the timing of flowering, flower gender and flower size. Unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge of such things to know when/how to apply it to get the desired result. Like you said Tigerlily, plant hormones can be tricky. I don't use them.

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html

Thanks Tony for the link, I am looking more for info on how it changes a plant's growth and budset

I've read it all, and all I can say is, after useing the Messenger, all my honeysuckle vines are in full bloom, I've had them planted for three years with a bloom here and there, the foliage is full and alot less dry leaves which is the norm. I sprayed my wildflower garden, and the Lupine was amost five feet high with a trunk two inches thick. I like the results, so I'm useing it. I think I'm spraying the lawn next...

Viv

Vizz8,
Get out the machetie! You will have plenty of mowing to do.
Sidney

I've already cut them down before they could seed. This picture was taken about two weeks ago.

Viv

Those are pretty, but i meant if you spray the grass. LOL
Sidney

LOL point taken....

Viv

I am so jealous! Wish I could grow Lupines like that. Those are the prettiest I have seen. It is too hot here. They languish! :( But I have always loved them. Just beautiful!

Well, I finally applied Messenger to my plants. At this point I mostly have lilies which are already full of buds so I don't think that the application could affect them since they were a bit further along in development. However...I had purchased a couple of bougainvilleas which I plan to treat as annuals and I forgot to take the things home from work and they dropped every leaf in the shipping box! I brought them home, potted them up and they were so pathetic, like twiggy antennae sticking up out of the dirt :( I let them be for about 2 weeks and no progress was evident. Last Sunday I mixed up 1/4 tsp of Messenger and a quart of water in a spray bottle and hit all the pots. As of Friday the two little twigs were covered in tiny bright green leaves, more than a dozen easily. I'm not sure that would have happened without the Messenger so I'm very pleased:)

I do use other fertilizer too. MG, I had Osmacote time release granules in the pots and I also use SuperThrive sometimes. Oh, and some of the Mighty Plant. If you guys talk about it, I'll usually attempt to try it :)

I also use a lot of different stuff but have to agree that Messenger/Mighty Plant has produced some amazing results- of course it's a lot of fun to use some of this, some of that, a pinch of that..."Boil and bubble, toil and trouble...." LOL.

dmac, be sure those Bouganvilla get lots of sun now they flourish as natives here in Florida. You might also set them on a dish full of pebbles with water in it for added humidity, although Greensboro can get sweltering.
Sidney

I have the same concern tigerlily voiced. My understanding is that Messenger causes the plant to be concerned for its life, so that it quickly uses all of its resources to bloom and set seed before it dies. I guess the question is "is it all of its resources". I wonder what will happen to it next year - or the next. Anyway, I went to the Messenger site, registered and asked them this queston. I don't want my plants to deplete themselves of their reserves in order to have a couple of fantastic seasons. Could this be like breeding dogs every time they go into season - to the detriment of the dog being bred? I don't know. But it concerns me and so I have asked. I hope they can give me an answer that will be satisfactory, and that I can understand! LOL

ceejay somewhere among all these posts on the thread Sidney from Jacksonville (sugarweed) shared his experience w/ long term use- at least several years. I have never heard that messenger causes that fear of death response- and by my observations the plant doesn't put "all" resources into flowering/seeding for survival of the species- I know that response well. My plants look healthy, well fertilized w/ good balance between growth and flowering.
To all of you nay sayers all I can say is, my yard looks better than your's does! LOL. Sorry I can't resist feable attempts at humor. LOL.

Aprilbaby, my name is Sidney Ann and my DM didn't know I was supposed to have it spelled with a y.
I can only say you do have to fertilize/ or feed your garden more or yes it will look bright, but depleated.Also in my case you need to water a great deal.
My 2 Gerainiums on the front porch just throw 6 blooms for 3 weeks consistantly.
It does let me know it wants more 14-29-14.
Sidney

If Messenger caused plants to succumb to an early death I really don't think Eden would be selling it...think of all the lawsuits, etc in a couple years when everyone's plants died!

An analogy I can think of for how it works is vaccines--if you get a flu shot, it stimulates your body's natural defenses against flu virus so that you're immune to it for the rest of flu season. But it just triggers a small amount of immune response, not the full out response you would get if you actually had the flu, and I think Messenger does kind of the same thing for plants, it creates a low level immune response. And the reason why plants try to bloom and set seed like crazy when they're about to die is to make sure they reproduce before they die, but the excess blooming etc isn't what causes them to die, it's the disease they were fighting off in the first place that kills them. So with Messenger, you get a bit of that blooming behavior, but since there's no underlying disease, the plant will be just fine (as long as you water and fertilize it sufficiently to support the extra energy it's using with all the blooms!)

So sorry Sidney- often hard to tell, if it helps I can tell you I got the name April because my DPs couldn't think of anything (after all they only had 9 months to think about it) and I happened to be born in April. LOL.

I do fert w/ other things, I like to mix and match, whatever strikes my fancy and I water- well you have to in this area w/ the intensity of the sun and the high temps. Have to agree w/ ecrane3- even if no one sued, after a bit folks would realize that the product was responsible for the untimely deaths of their plants and no one would buy it! We all share out thoughts and experiences w/ certain products; some folks hate MG and others swear by it; some folks swear by ST and others think it a waste. I think it's nice to hear what works for others and then you take that info and if what you have been doing isn't getting the results you are looking for you can try what worked for ecrane or Ms. Sidney (who cares if it has a "y" or "i"!?) or Aprilbaby! (my middle name is Ann w/o an "e", also)- that's the beauty of the forums, yes?

Yep, that's the beauty. The cotton farmers use this in big sprays I think. It put's more food on the table at harvest time.
Sidney

Well I thought I'd read that UUallace had put on a link that was for commercial growers, that was were I got the idea that if I could come up w/ enough money, LOL, I could have then crop dust my yard!

I Imagine they use a 500 gallon tank behind a tractor. Might even be smaller as it has to be applied with-in 4 hours of mixing.
Sidney

I like the idea of crop dusting, but it is less discriminating I expect. 500 gallon tank could cover a whole lot of plants!

The only problem I have with Messenger is that it also gives weeds a big boost. Of course they are easier to grip when they are big.
Have you pulled a weed today?
Sidney

Hey Sidney,
Thank you for the advice on the bougainvillea:) I'll definitely use the pebble and water thing. I am able to keep it in full sun pretty much all day due to the fact that the lovely wooded lot next to my apartment complex which had afforded some afternoon shade has been bulldozed for condo's. yippee. I've lost a few plants due to the sun change but now get to try out some full sun varieties.

It's funny how many questions the use of Messenger has raised. I wonder if Miracle Grow and SuperThrive were controversial when they appeared on the market? I wish I could say that I was such a consistant gardener that my plants might kick it early due to my timely application of Messenger...Unfortunately, that's not how I garden and I still have a 5 gallon pail of Preen I got on sale for $4 about 2 years ago that I haven't opened yet and I've owned Messenger (about 24 packets) for about 2 months now and have only applied 1 spraying using a whopping 1/4 tsp in a quart of water:LOL:

Sidney
I am always pulling a weed here or there- my grandfather had a huge- for So Cal it was- 3 acre yard and it was planted like a jungle- large trees, lots of understudy shrubs, always lush and gorgeous and I never remember seeing a weed. Anytime he saw one he pulled it; my mom is the same way and I guess I am too, if you see it and pull it, it doesn't have time to spread or seed and so 5 minutes here or there keeps me from hours and hours of what others have to do.

dmac- many plants thrive with benign neglect, consistency isn't everything!

Well, when it comes to weeds I have the market cornered and the proof is that it rained twice this week and my pretty garden is covered. They are also encouraged by the Messenger. I pull and pull, but this is Florida and even some well intentioned gardeners think the weeds are "pretty".
I will mow and mulch and give the yard an hour or two every morning before it gets hot.
Maybe I can overcome the weeds.
Sidney

Oh I share your sorrow- we have enough humidity that even if we don't water and everything else dies we would have healthy weeds! Here it isn't even the well intentioned! My neighbor thinks that anything growing in his lawn that is green is grass, no need to do anything about the dandelions, crabgrass, johnson grass, etc. Oh well not everyone is as annoyingly demanding as I am.

Lots of great info in this thread!

I have a couple of packets of Messenger (thanks, Robin!), but I have hesitated to use it because that's not enough for repeated applications... I was afraid the plants would get "hooked" after one use and then suffer if I didn't order more (Messenger addiction, LOL).

Can I use Messenger just once or twice in a season to give my plants a boost? Or would that be worse than not using it at all?

aprilwillis,
I think I'd like you to come stay at my house for about a month, there are a few weeds who would like to meet you!
Sherry