Messenger questions

Couple (or three) of questions on using messenger:

Does anyone use a surfactant with it like dish soap?
Can you mix any other type of foliar spray with it?
Does it matter if you do messenger and a fertilizer at the same time?

Hope these don't sound too dumb ☺

Thanks,

Maureen

Hi
I have used Messenger and really like it. You can mix it w/ anything, but I haven't and probably wouldn't mix it w/ oil based products like Neem or Dormant oil. I have never added surfactant because I didn't see the need.

Messenger is a fertilizer so I don't add other fertilizers it at the same time, I do alternate, say one week Messenger, next feeding something else, next something else, then Messenger again. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a natural fertilizer at the same time, say seaweed extract or fish emulsion but I think there may be a point of diminish returns, adding more than the plant can take up or use...Have you ever taken vitamins and noticed that you peed (sorry for being so graphic) a lot of it out? Your body could only take up so much and the rest went down the drain, so to speak.

I probably tend to over fertilize because I like the new foliage, taller growth, increased flower production, etc. This doesn't mean that I am doing it the right way, but on the other hand I have never lost a plant to over fertilizing.

The way I see it, although I am sure others have VALID, MORE EDUCATED, yet opposite positions, most commercial fertilizers have a built in safety factor. If you follow the directions exactly you will safely supply your plants w/ appropriate nutrients and not burn them up. There is room for a margin of error because nobody is perfect and if you do add a bit more accidentily and your plants burn up the manufacturer doesn't want you to think it's the fault of the product- nobody wants bad press like you telling your friends that you used "Bob's fertilizer" and blah, blah, blah. However, that margin for error is not a sure thing, it is just my opinion and you need to know that you can over fertilize your plants. You can kill your plants. You can weaken your plants. I am also not sure that over fertilizing really produces improved anything...I am a tinkerer.

My grandfather was a commercial grower; when they were planning on lots of sprays or flowers for a holiday or season they adjusted fertilizer and lights, tinkering w/ things to obtain what they wanted. That's what growers do all the time.

Hope this helps and if it doesn't I am sure somebody else will come along.
April :-)

There are a few threads scattered through most of the forums and I've looked at most of them before finally buying the product.
From what I gathered Messenger is largely something call harpin protein which is supposed to stimulate the plant to produce more growth and blooms. Not really marketed as a "fertilizer". Now they do carry another product with a small amount of the harpin protein and mainly fertilizer call Mighty Plant.

The Messenger product is intended for immediate use once mixed, like within a 3-4 hour period. A member who wrote that they worked for the company had posted on the Hoyas forums and said proper usage was once every 3 weeks spray a fine mist, cover well like a heavy dew. Runoff is wasted product so move along to another plant if this starts to occur. A single dose pack mixes with 1 gal. of water and is stated to treat up to 1000 sq ft of lower growing plants or 45-50 good sized tomatoes or rose bushes.

Check www.davesgarden.com/forums/t/577362/ or in the Roses forum the post titled What is Messenger?

I still haven't opened my first pack yet but plan to this week. Good luck!

I purchased both the spray product and the fertilizer. I was happy w/ both but thought that I saw better/faster results from the spray although it's easier to use the feritlizer product for me because I don't often mix up sprays. Sort of a toss up. Either way I did feel that there were noticable responses to the product.

I jumped on the band wagon ,so to speak, and bought the Mighty Plant, not knowing whether to get it or the Messenger for my daylilies. I should have asked for advice before I bought. Any thoughts one way or another about which is better as far as helping produce more blooms? How often do I use MP? Do you also use it as a fine spray? Next time I will ASK before i LEAP (yeah, right !).

Libby

Libby i think you will be as happy w/ Might Plant as w/ the spray. Both work fine, I think it's a matter of convenience or preference. Since I tend to over water I am probably better w/ the spray. Both of them, if I recall are intended to be used every 3 weeks, but you can check their site
http://www.edenbio.com/garden/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

I think you could use it as a spray if you wanted but it's intended as a water soluble fertilizer.

I think that you will be happy w/ what you have and the results.
April :-)

HI April
I don't like to correct you but Messenger is not a fertilizer. With a new technology they isolated a natural plant hormone called a harpin protein that stimulates the plants immune system to think that it is under attack. In response the plant hurries to make flowers and hence seeds to reproduce itself. If you go to the Eden BioScience website they explain it all. Messenger is the pure harpin protein, but their other product, Mighty Plant, is a fertilizer that you water into the soil around the plant. Messenger is taken up through the foliage, not the roots, thats why its a foliar spray. Mighty Plant also has some trace amounts of Messenger in it, but it does not take the place of Messenger. I can't remember which University did the work that led to the formation of the company, I think it was either Cornell or Duke but I could be wrong.

If you go to the Co-Op forum there is a very lengthy discussion under Messenger. A bunch of us went together last month and bought these products at a reduced price from the company.

The good news is that you seem to be very happy with the products - I'm glad to hear another independent gardener give an opinion. It sounds almost too good to be true on their website. I still haven't broken mine out yet and we are forecasted for rain for a few days so maybe next week.

Right we got to that, it was just my assumption that Maureen was talking about Mightly Plant.
I think that you will notice results. I was not convinced when I purchased it but was willing to give it a shot, after the 2nd application it was clear to me that the product works.
Thanks

This Messenger sounds interesting, but if you apply it every 3 wks and you guys see results after the second spray-thats 3-4 weeks before you see results, how do you measure those results?? On a plant like a annual or perennial, it will grow a lot in 3-4 weeks anyway-including blooming with just fertilizer. So how do you know its the Messenger and not just that the plant is going to grow and bloom anyway?

I'm kinda going on the reports of the other gardeners here on the site. The photos and reports of vigorous growth and flower/fruit/veggie production are pretty impressive. On one of the threads in another forum it was also recommended to pick a time to cease using Messenger because people had reported that some of their fruit trees were still producing fruit when they should have been going dormant for the season. The product is supposed to stimulate the plants defenses which in turn stimulates the growth, I guess tricking the plant into putting more effort into surviving. You should check some of the other links and the edenbio site. My plants right now are sorta struggling with the blah weather we are having right now. Not raining but not much sun either and cooler than normal temperatures. I plan to try my first application of Messenger this weekend and see if it can't revive the poor things. I figure it can't hurt:)

I am sure it won't hurt...but this form of applying a stimulant over and over and over again sort of reminds me of the dangers of steroids for men, etc lol. I wonder what the long term effects are on a perennial or plant other than a annual? Its like girdling a fruit tree to make iththink it is dying so it keeps producing fruit-eventually it won't work. Interesting..

Tigerlily123, you do raise interesting points.

I can't speak for the long term effects perhaps there is someone who has used the product for several years.

What I can say is that I used it mainly on new and pre-existing perennials- I cannot say how much these plants would have grown w/o Messenger, only that after using the product the growth exceeded what I would have expected. From a scientific perspective, w/o a control group it's hard to be precise, but I am convinced that the product did produce extraordinary growth. It would be a great idea to take two (or more) same plants and treat one and not the other to see if there are measurable differences.

Wish I'd thought to do that.
April

Yeah, that is a good point = ) I don't plan to treat more than once or twice for a couple of reasons, one being the price of the stuff and two, well, I'm just fairly inconsistant with my plant care:LOL: Since I've not sprayed anything as yet, I'll experiment and leave a pot and a plant in the bed unsprayed and see if I notice any difference. Since I'll be getting my first digital camera next week I'll be able to get some photos of the before and after effects if there even are any.
Tigerlily123, dmail me your address and I can mail you a couple of packs if you'd like to try Messenger as an experiment.

Donna

Whoa folks, It's hard to tell where some ideas get started.
1 BOTH messenger AND Mighty Plant are meant to be applied by a fine mist sprayer.
2 As someone above said, they are both Harpin protiens and the Mighty Plant has a Peter's type fertilizer meant to be applied to the foliage, but can be drenched. It only makes a gallon per packet, so that would keep one busy mixing and is very effective used as a foliar spray.
3 It's not a steroid, so I can't see that applys. I have used it for 2 years and my garden is just fine. With-in 3 days I see results like the 8 open blooms on a dwarf gardenia that was just sitting there last week.
I use it about every 10 days if I'm in town.
4 Shield weeds from the overspray. I let some get on the wild Boston fern in the yard and some of the swords are 50 inches long. They are usually 12 - 18 inches.
I sprayed Messenger on most of my plants last Thursday evening and I am so glad since on Friday JaxFlaGardener decided to throw a impromptu Plant give away tomorrow and my yard always gets toured since I'm only six blocks away.
My yard and flowers are all just a jumping.
One Brug has thrown out half dozen blooms.

Buy a 1 gallon pump sprayer for less that $10 at WM. You wont be disappointed and will look like a real green thumb gardener.
Sidney

Yes, but the real question is, do you apply any additional fertilizer, other than Messenger?

Well, Aprilbaby2 I do to some and I don't to others. Everything got some osmacote to begin with.
I really notice the most results with the plain Messenger.
I also use Naturize, Miracle Grow, Epsom Salt, Coffee Grounds, Hydrogen Peroxide, Spray n Grow and Bayer's Azealea Fert.
But, so far this year, Mighty Plant and Messenger are all I've applied.
Hope that helps.
Sidney

Sidney, it does. You sound like me, a pinch of this, a litlle of that, some of this oh and a bit of this! LOL.
This year I added Kelp meal and I think it helped but hard to tell w/ all that I add!LOL.
Aprilbaby2

Hi April!

Fancy meeting you here! (like they say in England)

I would like to try it, specially for my brugs. Do you know how much do I need to buy?

After reading the following, shouldn't we be INJECTING harpin once a year or less often?

http://www.edenbio.com/usa/technology/download/wp_1.pdf.

It appears to me to be another conflict of science and marketing.

Well, your link didn't work. But I can't imagine what you are talking about.
Please Copy and Paste whatever it is that has you concerned.
Sidney

April,

I see your point about diminished returns--I know that water soluble vitamins do pass out of you when they reach their saturation point--but I never thought about it with plants and ferts. However, I do know that I have burned the roots of plants by using more than the recommended dose of ferts. I learned my lesson there!

It's good to know that MP works, I bought both messenger and mighty plant. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to use either for quite some time due to this incessant annoying rain.

Maureen

Sugarweed, that's quite a testimony thanks, I feel like it was money well spent now. But control freak that I am, I need to know exactly how you apply it, do you mind? I don't function well without specific instructions, lol.

So, are you alternating between mighty plant and messanger this year, like one every two weeks, and always as a foliar spray?

Now I'm off to read the other threads and some more at the edenbio site.

As usual Thanks all,

Maureen

After going to the site I thought I would post the url to the FAQ, so here it is:
http://www.edenbio.com/garden/index.php?option=com_simplefaq&Itemid=79

I’m still going to send in a question about a surfactant.

Pays to read the FAQ I guess—DUH

However I don’t see mighty plant being sold on the site. Did the DG co-op buy them out? Hehe.

Maureen

Yes Maureen the DG Co-op did get the last of it.
No surfactant needed. The messenger just needs to more or less dry on the leaves to be effective.
I have even sprayed bare but living stems and had them leaf-out in a few days. I knew they were viable because i scraped them with my thumb nail to find green under the bark.
Sans Mighty Plant, just mix-up a gallon of Messenger and add 1 (1 teaspoon)
gallon scoop of Naturize or Miracle Grow or Peters. Shake well and spray away.
The plants will be stimulated and fed at the same time. Be sure to mix the Messenger into the solution before adding any other products.
I'm treating the Crepe Myrtles with it tomorrow.
Sidney

From the link that did not work:
"Topical application ofharpin does not elicit any visible HR."

OK, what is HR?
Thanks
Sidney

Thank you very much Sugarweed, Hopefully it will finally be done raining for a while and I will get to try messanger out with some peter's bloom plus tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the info!

Maureen

From Edenbio.com:
"A first line ofdefense in the incompatible interaction is the hypersensitive response (HR). The HR is local-ized plant cell death at the site of infection."

My interpetation:
If you spray one leaf and the leaf dies it is a success and the whole plant is protected.

I believe there is some merit. I would guess it was written by a scientist then almost completely rewritten by marketing. Injecting harpin would be very unpopular and would eliminate the woody plant market. Injecting one drop per year is beneficial but wouldn't be good for sales.

There are three patents with the word "harpin" that came up here.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

United States Patent 6,765,128
Klessig , et al. July 20, 2004

Method of using a pathogen-activatable map kinase to enhance disease resistance in plants

Abstract
Novel used for WIPK, a member of the mitogen-activated protein (MAP) kinase family, are provided, based on the discovery that the WIPK protein is activatable in association with development or enhancement of resistance to microbial pathogens. Thus, WIPK may play a critical role in signal transduction for activation of plant defenses against certain microbial pathogens. Methods are disclosed for making WIPK transgenic plants with enchanced resistance to disease causing agents. In addition, transgenic plants transformed with WIPK and having enhanced disease resistance are disclosed.

Last Spring Oldindian showed us a plant at his home where he had sprayed only one side of the same plant with Messenger. The leaves on the sprayed side were bigger than the un-sprayed side. If that helps any at all.
Sidney

HR is the hypersensitive response. Basically, when a pathogen attacks a plant, the plant first responds by killing the cell that the pathogen is trying to enter. I suppose the logic would be that if the plant could eliminate the cell, the pathogen would not have a host and would die. Better to loose a cell than to be infected by a potentially lethal pathogen. If you inject Messenger into a plant you will induce this response. With a visible portion of the leaf dead. A photo of this was on the cover of the journal Science when hapin proteins were discovered at cornell. When Messenger is sprayed (not injected) on a plant you don't see any kind of visible response of this sort. What you do see is better disease resistance, enhanced growth, and enhanced flowering.

Thripmaster
Thanks, that makes much more sense to me and validates my understanding.

Those of us who have used the product, regardless of which form have given opinions based on our experience and we used the product as we interpreted Eden Bio Science's direction. I think there are supposed to be other simillar products out there, although I have not investigated them. I originally heard about Messenger on this web from someone who'd used it and was happy w/ the results. In the end whether you use or not may just boil down to personal attitudes or preferences.

I am not sure what you are saying UUallace?

With Surgarweed's sprayed vs. non-sprayed, the effect was from the spraying and not the harpin. Spraying harpin is a waste of time and money. Injecting or applying a drop to a fresh cut would make sense.

LOL, Like i can inject 1500 plants in an hour. I'm on a limited income, but thats way beyond my capabilities. I just mix, pump and mist. My garden is popping for sure.
I just don't see your logic there. I am almost 60 and I'm supposed to bend over and individually cut and drop every plant, or BEND OVER (big issue) and inject.
I will do as Robin suggested and mist everything about once a week or 10 days.
Just a great time to inspect and mist every plant well. With Bending at a minimum.
With the 2 co-ops I participated in I have enough to last 3 years now.
Sidney

Sydney my DH would expect me to have a 3 yr supply; he is the 1st to tell me that there is no reason to stockpile! But what does he know, he's not the gardner!

I am not sure that I understand the logic either. Are you saying that if Sidney sprayed water vs. messenger/water mixed that the results would be the same?

Actually, harpin proteins bind with binding sites on the plant. Once they bind with these sites the plant signals that there is a pathogen present and the cascade of responses is started. That is why it is not necessary to actually inject the plant. This response is called the SAR (systemic aquired resistance) response. Many other products also induce a similar defense response that are not injected. A well established example is the product "Actigard" that is sold in agricultural markets as a foliar spray to control bacterial spot in tomatoes and viral diseases in tobacco. It is marketed by Syngenta, a leader in crop protection technology. Other products claim this response to some extent but it is less proven. Examples are compost tea, phos acid fertilizers (alliette), kelp and seaweeds, and other plant stimulants.

Thripmaster
I have heard of a product called "spray and grow" or something simillar but have not investigated, I believe that it claims to have simillar results to messenger- is that most likely to be acting in the same way, activating SAR response?

I think Spray N Grow might be a fertilizer. It claims to be "vitamins for your plant".

Thanks.

Spray and Grow is not forth coming with what's in it, so it's probably something readily available that they dont want known. If we could duplicate it they would be out of business. They do sell Messenger on their site and told me to have atleast 2 days between using it and S & G.
I love them both.
Sidney

I wonder why the recomended 2 days. Any idea.