Is this really legal?

That,s good.

Equil:
Dirr's comments on Cladrastis kentukea (lutea):
30-50' x 40-55' spread; zones 4-8; medium rate of growth; prune only in summer or tree will bleed profusely (winter or spring pruning); often develops bad crotches which can split or crack in storms; supposedly can fix atmospheric nitrogen; transplant b&b into well drained soil; tolerates high pH soils and acid situations, native on limestone cliffs and ridges; full sun; very few problems w/this tree; excellent tree for flowers and foliage; choice shade tree for smaller properties...(nothing else negative)

Most contractors in my area are hesitant to use it because of the breakage around here and their responsibility of plant warranties. I didn't mean it only had a ten year life exp. only that if it broke up in just 10 short years, I still think the tree would be worth having. Sorry to mislead you!!!

There's just so much in this thread-but wanted to let everyone know since it was mentioned previously...
on or around Oct 30, President Bush signed SB144, Noxious Weed Control Act of 2004.
However, there are no appropriations for the bill as of yet.

EXCELLENT!

Hi secludedgardens- got my information-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469037/

Somebody else had a Dirr's too thank goodness. I need my Dirr's!
The USDA site states it is a long lived tree.

I see what you mean about contractors being hesitant to use it as it does require some pruning when young to thwart off issues you mentioned. It is my understanding that if this tree is pruned properly, future issues will be next to nothingness. What do I know... I haven't even received mine yet!

Thanks for getting back to me, I am not canceling my order! I was starting to think these were self destructing trees like the Bradfords.

Pvilleplanter, how many of your morning glories are native to your state and/or not invasive ones?

they are all invasive.....not sure if they are native or not.

Sugarweed....let not your lower lip quiver. I have ox-eye daisies in my little prairie. They're no problem there...shallow root systems, small leaves. They aren't shading or crowding anything out. And I have seen it at the roadside. Yes, lots of daisies...BUT and a big BUT, lots of natives, too. April

Secluded,

Welcome and thank you! I would be happy to send you some photos of my back yard...but right now...it's kind of dead, LOL! We've had a couple of hard frosts. It's in progress...I plan to add more native woodland plants, and a bog and a pond. Can't decide whether I want a peat bog, or a calcareous fen. Sorry to be such a geek, LOL! We have both in this area. I will go with what is most endangered in this area, which is probably the fen. I will be enlarging the woodland garden next weekend, by scooping off the sod. I will be enlarging the little prairie next spring, via Round-up of the existing kentucky bluegrass. I don't have the time to or money to go with the more organic methods, I'm afraid. Wish I did.

I love plants that are bright red, hence my love of silene regia, lobelia cardinalis, fire pinks. I'm trying to attract humming birds, and especially, rare moths and butterflies. I have bright red monardas and morning glories in my front yard! (where the non-natives dwell) It's all about the nectar...well, and host plants. I keep intending to plant some spicebush, but I have really small suburban lot. If I had more land, believe me, more trees and shrubs would be going in! I really loved the Enkiansis (sp?). It's not native to my area, so I wouldn't plant it, but it's very lovely! Wish I lived in an area where I could plant it. I must take credit for Equil's devotion to Fothergilla, by the way, LOL!

I will look for some photos of my back yard last spring...but, really, spring ephemerals are kind of about being subtle. Unless we're talking masses of mertensia! Which, sadly, I don't have, as I have dry (silver maple)shade. April

dode, well, I've cheked the USDA 's list and Oxe-eye daisy, Luecanthemum Vulgare Lam., is imported, but not considered Invasive or Nauseous in Florida, so I am still wanting some seeds.
This desire was really bugging my conscience, so I decided to let the list answer this ethical issue for me.

sugarweed, please go and post your question on Oxe-Eye Daisy over in Garden Foes.

Sugarweed, perhaps your climate is too hot for oxe-eye to thrive. After all, the definition of a weed is 'any plant that grows where you don't want it it.' I think it is the responsibility of the person who plants seed to determine if it is a hazard to the environment in their area. If you don't see oxe-eye daisy in the wild where you are, it may not even do well in cultivation.

Weeze, you are very possibly right. I am in North Florida, but it may still be too warm here as it is for some of my other favorites like lilacs.
I haven't really had the time here that I had in years past. If I can get this retirement thing down, I'll travel those ole roads less trod again.
You may be right. However, we do have this native one, a photo obtained from the USDA site.
I still like the white oxeyes too. I have also addressed this question at:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469196/

What a beautiful photo, sugarweed! Well, if you decide you want oxe-eye daisy, let me know.

It is pretty, and i only wonder what the dimensions of these are, I have tiny daisy like weeds I have zoomed in on and they look big, so I don't really know any more or possibly as much about this plant as you do.

Well, big or little, it's a lovely photo!

Just to let everyone know that has been posting to this thread, Terry has offered to move it to the Garden Foes forum which has become the home forum for invasives and I have asked her to go ahead with that.

CaptMich, we do have native Texas Morning Glories. Here are a few of them:
http://www.wildflower2.org/NPIN/Plants/CNSearch.asp?Common_Names=morning+glory&submit2.x=13&submit2.y=9

The one that grows wild in my yard and I have seen take over in landscaping in the summer is Ipomoea hederacea which is not native and is very invasive.

The Ipomoea sagittata is so pretty, reminds me of ballerinas... you know, b/c of the pink..

I used to find miniature sky blue morning glories in the grass but they soon phased out when I tried transplanting them to pots.

Hey folks, sorta dis-heartened at this point? Yes that plant is beautiful in bloom, I know it is not supposed to survive our winter temps, you are putting it in a pond less than four yards from the lake?

Different plant - at a customers house today

When I recently ask if a place for "Native Habitat" could be added to the PDB, I got this answer from NOT the administration I expected, but an Uber.
This is the response:

"We have given a lot of thought regarding an origin/nativity of a
plant on several occasions, we came to the conclusion that it will be
practically impossible to do. Our reasons are that very few plants are
confined to one country/regions and humans have moved about a lot and
taken their plants with them so despite some headway in acheological
botany we simply cannot say what is truely native to where for quite
a number of plants.

One of our biggest problems even if we are to take the broad stance
that XXXX is found in the wild in XXXX regardless of nativity or
naturalising, we cannot present the options in a simple manner, we
either need to be very specific and include minute regions which
would make the list impossibly long or conversely the spectrum would
be far too broad as to make it nonsensical."

I realize, this is not something that could be done overnite, but to call it nonsensical. I am beside myself. All it would take is a line or two. We don't see many of the spaces filled in on the PDB as it is. The drive for size has passed the desire for completeness.

Naturalized is not native.

The Uber went on to add this should be put in comments, well that's another needle in a haystack to find.

I am very dissappointed in this flippant attitude!

Why not open your own website to post the information that is so important for you to get it out?

I dont recall when i signed up on Daves reading anything that said the admin had to agree with everything i said or give me all the forums i wanted.
Any other site would have nipped this in the bud way long ago, but not here. Problem is is that you guys keep going and going.

Typical socieity tho, i'm unhappy, its your fault, i'm gonna moan but not do anything about it.

Native range is actually quite easily discerned for the vast majority of plants. Yes, the scientific community does argue from time to time about origin on a few species here and there but they generally can narrow it down to at least the same continent. This is the exact type of information that should be out there for people to easily access. The PDB is a quick reference. Providing space to add the native range of a plant makes sense to me but what do I know any more. The exclusion of information on origin seems sort of counter productive given the scope and intent of the PDB. You might want to let the administration know about this as it seems inconsistent with their sincere desire to grow the Database to attract future subscribers. Seriously, probably just an oversight. This site is constantly evolving and I'm sure they'd welcome your input.

Ooops, walked away before posting and now see comments from MSjen.Is In looking at the post that I responded to, I was led to believe that the comments to nix the addition of native range of a plant were made by another subscriber not the Administration. I apologize for commenting if the addition of native plant range to the Database was already hashed around and nixed by the Administration. I'm sure they had valid reasons for doing so that we may not fully comprehend.

And, was this thread entirely moved over to Garden Foes from somewhere else or is this my imagination?

Yes Equil-it was moved to Garden Foes EDITED to say.... opps that's here we are now, lol. Getting confused between the two of them.
Sugarweed you are completely sane!!!




This message was edited Nov 21, 2004 7:06 AM

I'm confused

I guess I'm confused as to why people who do not care for the subject or the length of it feel compelled to comment? I would never go to another forum and post against something I simply didn't care about....If the interest is stopping traffic on the post then why comment further??

Sugarweed, I'm sorry you saw my comment as out of hand and perhaps I should have explained more. Your complaint seems to be centred on this paragraph

"One of our biggest problems even if we are to take the broad stance
that XXXX is found in the wild in XXXX regardless of nativity or
naturalising, we cannot present the options in a simple manner, we
either need to be very specific and include minute regions which
would make the list impossibly long or conversely the spectrum would
be far too broad as to make it nonsensical."

My meaning being that if we were to have a list with such a broad spectrum like N.W China, S.W. France (which would still be a long list) or even simply just continents then we aren't giving full information on the climate and type of soil that a more specific region listing would give, but to get into specifics would mean that the list would be way too long to fit into the PDB and we would need to allow multiple choice.

"Naturalized is not native."

Something of which I am fully aware, however, non native, invasive and non invasive plants are long natrualised in some regions and are even considered native in some cases where they are not, some plants are even found in more abundance in regions where they are naturalised for a whole number of reasons.

"The Uber went on to add this should be put in comments, well that's another needle in a haystack to find."

It seems to me that comments appear to be a fruitless excersize to some members, perhaps if comments were searchable (and that's a question for Dave) it would be helpful?

Equilibrium

Nativity of plants in the US might be easier, and I think you mentioned this a little while back in one of the threads (The Dames Rocket one?) in Wild Plants. However, in Europe, North Africa and Asia, this is, in my belief, not the case due to trade and movement of people. I am always willing to be proved wrong and would welcome more information on plants that originate from the old world countries and their nativity. Not just to continents though as I really don't feel that it's helpful to know that something comes from Africa, it provides a very small amount of information and tells me very little about the plant itself, now Equatorial East Africa is a bit more helpful :)

While in our last discussion I wasn't speaking as a DG Admin (because I'm not), I am a PDB Admin, hence my access to the PDB helpdesk, and as such was trying to convey our findings from similar discussions on forum (most recent was in August 2004) not 'nix' anything out of hand. We are always open to suggestions for improvement even if we don't always take them up.

Caron

I am interested in this subject and as this question was initially in the helpdesk and I am a PDB admin, I felt compelled to answer as I have.

As it so happens, I made this very suggestion of nativity a couple of years ago, it wasn't taken up then for the very same reasons and I agreed with them.

I, too, am also interested in it. Someone posted a link recently about invasives. enature or something? I did the search for my state and found a couple of ones that i didnt know were invasive. Guess what i'll be doing today.

I'm all for saving our planet and i really am interested in this topic.It kills me to go to the horse arena and see the kudzu taking over the tree line.

I come to this thread and the other ones like it because i want to know about the invasive that i didnt know about before. There is a lot of info available that would be so much more effective if it was centralized in one place.

Really, all i was trying to say is that if this info was not going to be put on the PDB, then maybe someone with website knowledge could design a website for it. That is NOT telling someone to go away. Just simply stating that if the info is not put on DG, its still important enough to be put somewhere else.

I found the eNature.com link to be VERY helpful. It gives both invasives and natives by state. It appears that website is provided by the National Wildlife Federation....what better organization to provide that info. Further, if I'm not mistaken it also provided native animals as well.

Thank you MSjen.

Well needless to say if I've stepped on anybody's toes. I totally disagree and have had my feelings trompled for thinking this is a vital part of any PDB. But everyone is right. I will keep a dozen or more sites to fall back on for this one detail.
It might be time to reconsider "Native Habitat" if it keeps being suggested regularly.
I am still interested in Baa's comment made in one of these threads recently "everone knows Bellis perennis is ruining the ecology in Texas". I have looked, (in that dozen other sites) and can't find reference as to what she was talking about. Because of this, my opinion of Baa's opinions is a little shaky. I'm from Texas and I still feel protective of her.
I would not have asked her opinion on this, But I did without knowing it.
I didn't realize Ubers were considered administration. I am sorry.
iluveverbdy Sidney

thanks for the clarification Baa and MSJen!

A few comments on the eNature site:
The eNature information overall is very good and very helpfull. However, for Colorado all the plants listed are invasive/agressive AND not all of them are on the official state noxious weed list. I do not know about any other state. If you are looking for general invasiveness then fine but if you are looking for state listed weeds for Colorado, the info is not accurate (we only have 86-not 112). I have not had time to cross reference to see if each noxious species in included.....

This site's native plant list are only "garden plants"...there are more than quite a few natives not on the list judging from the cactus section alone.

Same deal for Illinois as pertains to eNature's information but a web site is only as good as those backing it. They do their best to keep it updated however like anything else, allocating the resources to keep it going is an ongoing issue. That was sort of the reason why I like the forum approach here. Many people can leave comments and 5 or 6 heads are always better than 1 or 2.

Hi Baa, I have read your comments to me. Thank you for sharing them with me.

The Daisy I was referring to in the other thread was Bellis vesanus, it's a made up name off the top of my head, I chose that for neutrality and not in anyway to try and confuse anyone, I'm sorry that it achieved the opposite aim to the intention.

Ubers aren't all administrators in the PDB, aside from Dave, Trish and Terry there are 3 others, Poppysue, Mystic and myself, I've been on PDB admin for a couple of years or so but it's not something that everyone will know. You are entitled to your view on my experience and opinions and I will pass on your report to my collegues so they may give you their opinion and address the concerns about my conduct and abilities you have expressed here.

Baa, so sorry this led me astray, being less educated and knocked off base by that "English wit being drier than a Texas wind", I understand now and you have my respect back. We are a little befuddled on this side of the pond.
Sidney

Oh-h-h...So that's what the UBER thing stands for, LOL!!!
I never thought to click on it underneath to your name, Baa.....
I think I get it now~

Sugarweed, perhaps a case of things being lost in the translation *G* my education was abysmal but I have parents with a good sense of puns and silly words, Bellis vesanus translates to Crazy daisy, I really didn't think anyone would look it up, my fault for assuming!