Member Input on Lilium in the PDB

Ok all you lily lovers! I posted to Terry about possibly getting the Lilium Genus elevated to the same status as Hemerocallis (daylilies), hosta, roses, etc in the PDB; meaning that it is a special group that can be searched exclusively. Here is a link to the thread in the DG forum on this request (it's a continuation of a older thread - see the last few posts in this thread):

http://davesgarden.com/t/425846/#new

Terry replied back that if there was interest and support from the DG membership to work on the Lilium entries she would consider doing it. One of the things she offered/suggested was that as a special genus category we could have unique categories/checkboxes added to the PDB. The first that comes to mind is the Lilium Division: Asiatic, Oriental, Trumpet, Orienpet, Asiapet, Martagon, etc.

My question is....are there any folks that would be willing to work on updating the PDB entries that are in existence? This would entail filling in any gaps in the checkbox categories and adding data to any new categories (division, et al). And second, would creation of a special searchable genus status prompt members as a whole to contribute *more* the to the PDB genus?

If I can get maybe 2 or 3 people to agree to help me in working on the Lilium genus I would like to ask Terry to proceed. The most important thing is that if we commit to do the work--then we need to do it. I'd like to make the PDB resource a whole lot better in the area of Lilium (along the lines of daylilies, roses, hosta and hibiscus).

Brenda

Good work Brenda! I'll help as much as I can, but only have a few different types so far, I need more ;>)

I know there are others that have much more knowledge than I do, but I'd sure be happy to help as much as I can!

Ok....so I think there's probably enough interest so what we need to do now is decide what, if any, new fields need to be added to the Lilium genus in the PDB.

The best site I've found for looking up registered Lilies is:

http://www.prideon.com/

(However the alpha search seems to be down today!) I also found the RHS Lily registration page here:

http://www.rhs.org.uk/research/registration_lilium.asp

With the latest registration supplement listing from the RHS here:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/publications/registers/lilyregister20.pdf

I propose the following new data fields for the Lilium genus in the PDB:

1. Division - There are 9 divisions. A good summary of those is found here:

http://www.wrls.org/faq/index.html#classification
http://www.bulb.com/summerguide98/lilium/04.asp

2. Flower Habit - As of 1999 the registration of lilies now includes classification of the flower in 3 categories: Up-facing, out-facing or down-facing.

3. Flower Form - Also as of 1999 registration identifies the flower form as either: Trumpet, Bowl, Flat or Recurved.

http://www.rhs.org.uk/research/registration_lilium.asp

Registration also identifies colors by Inside, Throat, Outside and also nectary and pollen colors. Do we want to have a more defined coloring catgorization for the PDB than what is currently in the PDB for any plant? Does that make it too complex?

Finally registration also identifies if there are spots, brushmarks, or papillae present for each registered cultivar. I think a category for these would be useful as some lilies are spotted or not, in the case of the Henryi's there are papillae and more and more cultivars are having brushmarks (Loreto is one that comes to mind).

One of the items being discussed about Hemerocallis right now is whether to add a field for the hybridizer. Right now the PDB data on Lilium is limited to 130 entries. If we want to add the hybridizer as a field. now would be the time to do so while the number of plants is small. Along those lines do we want to put in fields for parentage?

Does anyone have thoughts?

Just one, can we do anything with scent? Strong, med, mild, none? Sorry, I buy by my nose, lol!

Actually - I was just reviewing the Rose categories in the PDB and had the same thought. Agree!

I'm off to look at some of the other special PDB genus for more ideas.

Looks like y'all are off to a good preliminary discussion. I'll watch this thread and keep up with your ideas, then once we seem to be reaching consensus, I'll be happy to help Brenda summarize everything that this special form would contain, present it back for everyone to take a look at, and weigh in before we make the changes. So, keep those ideas coming!

I'd love to help, but my lily knowledge is fledgling. Maybe lilyfan or Iowaron would be good for this. They belong to a Lily Society and seem quite knowledgeable. I'll send thread in an email to them.

Thanks Wanda!! I can use all the help I can get and I *REALLY* would like to see the PDB improved in the Lilium genus.

I'd be willing to help. I am a novice in the field, but if I can be of assistance let me know.

lliyfan that's great!!!! I guess at this point, I'm very willing to volunteer to be the "project leader" on a Lilium PDB clean-up/expansioin effort.

What I need more than anything is this.....

1. Someone to tell me what the "process" is here on DG for something like this. Right now the number of lilium entries is small (considering how many named varieties are registered (7000+). So I'm thinking the process would go something like this:

a. Identify data fields unique to Lilium that we want to add to the PDB.

b. Clean up existing PDB entries.

c. Obtain data source for a mass upload to the PDB.

d. Do pre-upload clean up work on the data source.

e. Upload scrubbed data to PDB.

f. Add photos, comments/ratings to entries for the world to enjoy and be a worldwide leader in Lilium data!!

2. The next thing I need is to know who would be willing to scrub data. I'm thinking we'd do a joint effort to do the existing data scrub and then the mass upload pre-load scrub.

Idea? Thoughts? Volunteers??

Brenda

I'll help with what I can - pretty pc illiterate but I learn fast. :)

Thanks Laura!!!

Well I got an email from Terry so I guess I've volunteered (and I DID) to be the project lead on the lilium clean-up/expansion.

Right now I have the following folks that I *think* volunteered to help with data verification:

Violabird
Moby
Lliyfan
Kooger

The more the merrier and the quicker it will go. I'll begin working with Terry to finalize the new data fields we'd like to add so if anyone has other input on that first step let me know asap. Right now I'm thinking of adding fields for:

1) Division/class
2) Flower Habit
3) Flower Form
4) Fragrant
5) Hybridizer

I'll see if Terry concurs and then the next step will be to get a download of the PDB lilium entries and scrub them for the above data fields and to complete any blanks in the existing entries, as well as, correct any errors identified in the entries.

If those listed above would email me privately so I can have your email addy's I'd like to start a group email to keep all those involved in the work on my progress.

I really appreciate your assistance and willingness to give a bit of time from your busy lives to such a worthy cause. With a bit of hard work, time, and some luck we'll have one of the best Lilium databases around.

Anyone else that would like to help - there's still plenty of room for more!! Just post here or email me privately. I know we have a lot of "lurkers" on DG that are interested in Lilies - don't be shy!

Away we go......

How are we doing here?
I've been collecting sites for ID and specs. Here's a few besides what's already here somewhere.

http://www.vletterdenhaan.com/producten/info.htm
http://store.brentandbeckysbulbs.com/cgi-bin/bulbs/search?id=cfDAtVXV&mv_pc=188

FAQ http://www.lilypadbulbs.com/faq.html

http://www.lilies.org/
http://www.prideon.com/registry/hybrids.htm

Prideon is an EXCELLENT site for registered data on lilium.

Terry and I have been discussing the data structure, possible data sources and how best to tackle this project in phases. I have been in contact with the owner of the Prideon database and have sent an email to the Lily Registrar in the UK at the Royal Horticultural Society. I am waiting to hear back on availability of data sources to make our job MUCH easier! The thought of manually keying every piece of data for over 7000 cultivars gives me the hee-bee-geebies. (too much room for human error - despite the terrific folks we have working on this).

I feel it will be at least a few more days if not a bit longer before we get replies to our inquiries on data sources to upload to the PDB. Terry is working to get us an extract from the current PDB entries and I will then divide those up and we can begin "data cleanup" on those.

My apologies if I've been silent....but I'm really working this every night. I think some good front-end planning will make the project go much smoother, quicker and keep us all sane. LOL!

Brenda

Brenda, you are absolutely right. Much better to have a plan in place and resources available. There's no hurry, we have many colorless winter days to work on this too!! ;)

That's what I was thinking....a good winter project!

Sounds great to me!

i agree, i'd rather be outside this time of year.

Inanda says PDB???? Translate please????

Inanda

plant database :)

DUH -- plant data base. Thanks guys. I'll help, but want to make sure that w are not re-inventing the wheel here. Are you talking about all the lilium mentioned on DG or all the lilim - gulp
Inanda

As many as we can find and enter. "Gulp" is right. LOL

OK Brenda,

I'm in. Will have to see how it works. Have been busy looking at the iris arilbred list which has thmbnail pix with many of the iris. Does DG really have enough space on his server for this?
Ginny aka inanda

Brenda, did you find out anything about an mass upload? I been trying to add some and work on it some. I got tired of dayliles and needed a change for a bit. lol

Hey, lilyfan tells me she has a PILE of lily photos she can add once the base is up & running. I'm really a novice at lilies--only had a few up until this fall.I'll be happy to help where I can.

Was she being just a bit humble when she said she was a novice?? ;)

I am willing to help if I can. I am a complete novice.. but if there is something I can do to help, I would be glad to. Give me clear instructions and put me to work. I am pc literate but when it comes to gardening I am just learning.

Peggy - I emailed Terry a couple of times a month ago to see what was going on and never got replies. If you can shake something loose that would be great. I wasn't too concerned at the time as I was busy with outdoor things, but as it gets cooler I'm more in the mode to get going on this.

I did notice that there is now a division listed under Lilium that I don't think was there before so I think Dave has changed that. I had proposed also to add a Flower Form as well: Up Facing, Out Facing and Down facing.

Actually Terry thought an UPload was going to be a challenge to get Dave to agree to but she was suppose to be getting me a DOWNload of the current entries so we could work on those as a start. What I didn't realize is that if we don't have the ability to CHANGE existing entries then the only thing we could do is submit the corrections/new info to the PDB administrators for entry.

If you have a way to get this data for us that would be great. I know a couple of the gals have emailed me in the last month to see what was happening.

Brenda

Brenda, if you emailed me, I apologize. I changed ISPs this summer, and it's possible you sent it to my old email addy, which means it's floating somewhere out in cyberspace.

Dave and I have bounced around a few ideas for being able to (EASILY) edit entries on a "mass" scale, but I don't think our ideas have gotten very far (I suspect it entails some fancy footwork on his end that may not be feasible for our application.) Dave may have some other ideas, but it might be easist to give you and a few (VERY few) people access to edit the current entries. I don't want to scare anyone, but editing takes a bit of computer knowledge AND a high confidence that you know your changes are correct, considering that you're editing someone else's work.

Uploads aren't difficult if the data is properly prepared and everything is standardized. If you'll send me your real email addy through DG I'll send you a proforma spreadsheet that you can disburse to everyone.

The most tricky part is when you take the finished spreadsheet and convert words to their code equivalents. Even that isn't terribly difficult, but it does take some focused attention to make sure it's right.

I *think* I put the divisions in the Liliums and separated them into their own little world so you an browse and do advanced searches on them now. If we need additional fields, now's the time to speak up and make them happen, before we begin any editing or uploads of new entries.

Sounds good.

Upfacing is 1a
outfacing 1b
downfacing 1c (like Bright Star)

Division I Asiatics

to

Division IX Species

Due to all the Orientpets, etc etc, probably some others now, subdivisions to cover things like Northern Sensation etc. etc.

Ginny

Instead of doing up, out and down for each division, why don't we leave the divisions as they are and add up, out and down as a separate category?

I will help out on it too. I have become addicted to them now too. I agree the divisions are fine. Brenda has it listed above as: Flower Habit - As of 1999 the registration of lilies now includes classification of the flower in 3 categories: Up-facing, out-facing or down-facing. I think that and and fragrance are good ones to add.

Wasn't being too clear here.

Here is a lily listing

Connecticut Beauty
1a where 1 = Asiatic, a = upward facing
Yellow, few spots, stem 1.0m. late June

Here you have the colour, height and bloom time

Here is another

Copper King
VIa As soon as you see VI you know it is a trumpet,
When you see 'a' you know it is upward facing
Orange tinted gold. Stems 1.5 - 1.9m. July
colour, height and bloom time.

Ginny

I think we need to decide how we handle any pre-1999 registered cultivars for the Flower Habit. In the actual registration data there is not an....a, b or c; so do we include it as part of the Division or separately so that older cultivars can be entered without that reference. I would vote to have the Flower Habit as a separate field from the Division Category, but I am but one voice in the masses.

Additionally, even if an older cultivar is not registered as up, out or down facing do we want to make that determination and code it appropriately or just omit it since it wasn't registered that way? I personally would like to see the Up/Out/Down facing on all cultivars even if registration data doesn't include it, because I buy a lot of my lilies based on the flower orientation.

Terry -- I'll dig up the old emails I sent to you.....I thought we were having a private email discussion on this subject this summer and maybe it was at that point your ISP changed.

I'll email you separately.

Brenda

Hi, Brenda. Just wanted to let you know I haven't dropped off this subject. Still following the discussion! Mary

Tell me where I'm missing the boat.

I'm thinking that we can retain the current "divisions" category with all 9 classifications, followed by a separate section (title to be determined) that has three checkboxes:

a - Upward facing
b - Outward facing
c - Downward facing

Otherwise, (unless I'm missing something) we end up with 27 divisions/sub-divisions
1a, 1b, 1c, 2a, 2b, 2c, 3a, 3b, 3c...or is it only the first division that is subject to sub-division by its bloom's orientation?

Brenda, if we had a space between the division and a, b, or c could we then seach by that? I mean if we want a peach a could we search like that?

I agree, we should def. have a. b or c. (upfacing, outfacing or downfacing). We can do that from our own observations.

When I first bought Bright Star the only place where you could put it in a vase and still see it properly, was in a vase higher than your head. I was not impressed.
Ginny

inanda, you'll be able to search by division and (if you choose) by up, out, or downward facing, as well as color, height, etc.

Terry -

I think what Ginny was trying to say was that under current Lilium registration guidelines there are 27 different codes used. I'm inclined to keep Division number and Flower Habit as 2 separate PDB fields for the selfish reasons I mentioned and as Ginny followed up with.....searching for a peach colored upfacing lily. More importantly, in the Lilium registration application form they are two different fields on the application AND there are several cultivars that are codes as VII a/b meaning they are considered up AND out facing flowers.

So, in summary, I say we need to add a new Lilium specific field for Flower Habit with acceptable entries being:

a = upfacing flower
b = outfacing flower
c = downfacing flower

Beyond that I'd also like to see that we add something similiar to "Color Patterns" that are in the Hemerocallis genus in the PDB. For Lilium the options would be:

Spotted
Brushmarks
Papillae

And lastly, a Fragrance Yes/No field AND a Flower Size field for the flower diameter (these are given in mm rather than inches in the Registry).


Terry - if those field definitions work then I'd like to proceed. What's next?