It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6

Well look at that, lol. Is there anything you haven't accomplished with Zinnia's?

Hi Robin,

The list of things I haven't accomplished yet with zinnias grows every week or two. This week I added a fully 3Z plant form as a goal. I hope to make some progress with that this year. That light brown spoony petaled dahlia zinnia of Brenda's is something I have yet to match. That flower form could be the basis for a whole new strain of zinnias. Eight-inch zinnias are on the list. And this Waterlily Zinnia is something that I hope to reconstruct as a new zinnia strain.

ZM


This message was edited Feb 1, 2016 11:57 PM

Hello everyone,

Brenda's unusual dahlia-petaled zinnias inspired me to grow some California Giant zinnias and some Benary's Giant zinnias, looking for comparable uprolled spoon-like petals. The first picture is a "classic" California Giant bloom, and the second picture is a variation. Both are pictures of indoor zinnia blooms.

It must be some kind of forum malfunction that this message appeared at the beginning of this message thread, when it should have appeared at the end.

ZM

This message was edited Mar 4, 2016 9:10 PM

Well, it looks like the problem here has been addressed, and the messages have been assigned proper dates and times and put in the proper order. I will upload another current indoor zinnia pic, just to see if that still works.

ZM

ZM - Your recent post of the heavy headed dahlia type purple zinnia is outstanding and so is the burst of rose center with yellow outer petals.

And I like the orangey-yellow one!

My Razzle Dazzles have a unique flower form, but unimpressive bloom size. I am crossing them with other zinnias in a effort to increase their bloom size, and hopefullly to get some new bloom form traits in subsequent recombinations. I do have a few highly likely F1 hybrids involving Razzle Dazzles now, and I hope to exploit the recombinant seeds from them.

ZM

I like it, it would be great larger as it does look smaller than I know you'd be looking for. Of course, I'm only judging the comparison to the leaf size.

Another California Giant type with "quilled" petals.

I like this orangey-yellow one too!

Hi Pistil,

" I like this orangey-yellow one too! "

Well, actually, that last one is not what I would call "orangey-yellow". Its top petal color is more of a dark magenta and its outside (bottom) petal color is more of a light grey-greenish color. This current Razzle Dazzle specimen has some very bright colors.

ZM

Actually I meant the prior photo. Now I like this current one too.

Hi Pistil,

" Actually I meant the prior photo. "

Ahh. That makes sense. Your message just got displaced from the one it was intended to respond to.

OK, I also tend to like all zinnias. So I am challenged to show a zinnia that you don't like. This one might fill the bill. It is a variant of a Razzle Dazzle with an extra long core and muddy colored florets. I am pretty sure its mother doesn't like it.

ZM

LOL!

But we think Bulldogs are "cute" so who is to say. Well this one is in no way marketable, but it could be useful in breeding. Just think if the core got even longer, and the florets were hot pink or orange-like an Eremurus. I love Eremurus, at least the ones that aren't washed out and muddy colored.

Hi Pistil,

It's uncanny how similar our thinking is on this.

I am including a close-up of one of the "quilled petal" specimens. I don't know if it is meaningful, or even consistently so, but the "wrap" of the petals seems to be consistently counter-clockwise, with very few exceptions, and those seem to be on petals very early in their development. I will have to pay more attention to that detail in the future.

Incidentally, I don't think that Bulldogs are cute. I feel kind of sorry for them.

ZM

I totally feel sorry for them. I like healthy, functional, non-deformed animals.
However, deformed flowers are another thing-they can turn into something attractive! Or at least marketable-there are some oddities in the composite flower world that people buy that basically have only the central cone and no petals.
Here is Rudbeckia 'Green Wizard'
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/225952/

Hi Pistil,

The link to Rudbeckia 'Green Wizard' was most interesting. That aroused my interest in Dave's Garden's Plant Files. This is a Gaillardia that is similar to the Razzle Dazzle Gaillardia.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/58768

This is a picture of a "Razzledazzle" (sic) Gaillardia in the DG Plant Files

http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2008/08/04/art_n_garden/e3c137.jpg

Actually, I was somewhat disappointed in the DG Plant Files in this area. The Razzle Dazzle strain of Gaillardias has a rather complete range of colors in that flower form. Very few are represented in the Plant Files. Many of my Razzle Dazzle zinnias bear a strong resemblance to the Razzle Dazzle strain of of Gaillardias. My Razzle Dazzle zinnias are rightfully not in the Plant Files, because they are not commercially available. Maybe some day.

ZM


This message was edited Mar 16, 2016 9:43 PM

The little yellow one reminds me of lantana.

Hi Loretta,

Welcome to the discussion. This is a similar yellow Razzle Dazzle zinnia. I am working to expand the color range of the strain, as well as the bloom size.

ZM

What bloom size would make you happy?

Hi Loretta,

For the near term, 3 inches in diameter would be improvement over what I have for the Razzle Dazzles, which have been ranging from 1 to 2 inches in diameter. So 3 inches would make me happy for a while. But I always want to improve what I am working with, so a three-year goal would be more like 6 inches in diameter. However, that might be "impossible" for the petal structure of the Razzle Dazzles, which, as you can see from the pictures, is nothing like the petal structure of conventional zinnias.

ZM

That is pretty! 3" seems like a good goal but small compact branching plants with many smaller flowers would be effective too. Especially the pink ones with the yellow lips!

Hi Loretta,

I agree that good plant habit could be an effective trait. It wouldn't have to be small, but I would like nice shaped bushes for plants.

"...Especially the pink ones with the yellow lips!"

The original mutant (pictured) on which these were based had tan tips. I like the edge color, as long as it isn't brown or tan. Which, unfortunately, it is brown or tan on a fair number of my "in-progress" Razzle Dazzles. I am trying to breed the brown/tan edges out of the strain. Colored edges are fine with me, and so are just solid colors.

ZM

Is the center as white as it appears on that one? Isn't that unusual? That's nice!

Hi Loretta,

Yes, the center of that one was that white. Zinnia centers can be even whiter. That mutation occurred in a planting of white cactus zinnias, and most of them had white centers. Zinnia centers occur in about the same color range as the petal colors, but the centers can match the petal color, or differ from it. Centers and petals can "mix or match". White centers are less common, but they can give the zinnia bloom a nice look, like in this Tequila Lime zinnia.

Incidentally, have you ever grown zinnias? They are easy to grow, and easy to hand pollinate, to make your own hybrids.

ZM

Ok. I've seen whitish centers in other green and white zinnias but they always looked tinged yellow or green to me. Tequila Lime looks very nice.

The only zinnias I've grown were out of a seed packet. I did collect seed in the past but I didn't get anything different out of it nor did I try to.

Hi Loretta,

The next time you grow zinnias and decide to save seeds from them, just save seeds from your very favorite ones. It's hard to know what your favorite ones were after the zinnias have died and "gone to seed", so while the zinnias are still growing and blooming, you can look them over and form your opinions about individual specimens, and tie a bit of string or yarn on your most favorite ones. Seeds saved from your favorites can give better results than seed packets.

I think that most people who save seeds from zinnias wait until late Fall after the plants have died and turned brown, and then save the dried brown seed heads.

A better way to save zinnia seeds is to save the seeds as green seeds. You can pull individual petals from a selected zinnia bloom and save the ones that have plump seeds that contain a developed embryo. You can plant them immediately for a second generation of zinnias, or dry them on a newspaper or the equivalent preparatory to packaging them for use next year.

There are several advantages to saving green zinnia seeds. Brown zinnia seeds in dead seed heads are vulnerable to extended periods of wet weather, which can cause zinnia seeds to sprout in the seed head. Obviously seeds that have sprouted in the seed head are "goners". The green seed technique avoids water damage to matured seeds.

Some people have trouble with seed eating birds eating their zinnia seeds. Saving your seeds early as green seeds shortens the "window of opportunity" for the seed eating birds.

And, when you are saving green seeds, you can still tell what the bloom looks like (notice that the petals of the green seeds still have their coloration), which reduces the chance of your saving seeds from a zinnia bloom that you don't like.

The attached picture shows some saved zinnia green seeds, and how you can tell the "good" ones from the empty ones that lack a matured embryo.

ZM

Good lesson ZM, thanks for that and the pictorial that went with it.

Thank you, ZM. That is good advice not only for zinnias but dahlias which I do grow from seed. I can apply all that to my dahlias and going after green seed would be easier and I would be deadheading at the same time. Perfect!

Now as for zinnias, as a beginner zinnia grower, I like the larger full flowers with pretty centers, probably to "Florist Industry" for you. How would I improve on what's out there by collecting seed for that?

Hi Loretta,

It is possible that many techniques that are useful for zinnias can be useful for dahlias. One technique that hasn't been discussed here lately is growing your plants from embryos, instead of from seeds. I discovered this by accident while "breaching" my green seeds to make them sprout quicker.

The green seed coat on a green seed is alive and impervious to water and it won't sprout until the seedcoat "dies" and becomes water permeable. That can take 10 days to 2 weeks to occur. So I take an X-Acto knife and open the seed coat in some way, so that water can immediately access the embryo and cause it to germinate immediately. In the process of doing that I accidentally freed an embryo from a seed coat, so I planted the naked embryo, and it came right up with no delay. I have since deliberately extracted naked embryos and planted whole flats of them successfully. I have added a small amount of Physan 20 to the water I watered them with, as protection against any bacteria attacking the naked embryos, but the Physan 20 might not be necessary. The attached pictures show some details of green seed "breaching" and embryo extraction. The graph paper used was graduated in tenths of an inch. The embryo technique might be useful for "jump starting" a dahlia seedling.

"Now as for zinnias, as a beginner zinnia grower, I like the larger full flowers with pretty centers, probably too "Florist Industry" for you. How would I improve on what's out there by collecting seed for that?"

Right offhand, there are a couple of things you could try. For bigger more impressive zinnia blooms, pour your zinnia seeds out on a convenient white surface (e.g. a sheet of typewriter paper or a large dinner plate) and simply pick out the bigger, better looking seeds to plant. That assumes you have more zinnia seeds than you actually need. Once your zinnias bloom, look each of them over with a critical eye and pick only the very best to save seeds from. Tie a piece of string or yarn on them, just so you don't forget which are your favorites.

ZM


This message was edited Mar 21, 2016 2:10 PM

This message was edited Mar 21, 2016 2:15 PM

Thank you for all the good information.
I have to say I have not been successful with naked embryos. They always get sickly. I've tried sanding and puncturing tough seed coats I think with success but it was a long time ago and usually with seeds that need stratifying. I think I tried hydrogen peroxide for the naked embryos but I'm willing to experiment again! Maybe boiled water and perlite or vermiculite.

Hi Loretta,

Boiled water with Perlite or Vermiculite would not protect against seed-borne diseases or handling infections. Hydrogen peroxide should have worked, although it can become neutralized rather rapidly. Sanding would be applicable only to dried seeds. It is possible to extract a dried zinnia embryo from a dried zinnia seed, but that is somewhat difficult, and seems to offer no advantage. I confine my embryo extractions to green seeds, and that would probably be best for Dahlia embryos as well. Since your naked embryos "always get sickly" I suggest you try Physan 20.

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-PSPH8-Physan-Disinfectant-8-Ounce/dp/B000OWLD8C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1458599295&sr=8-2&keywords=Physan+20

Physan 20 is widely used around greenhouses to maintain hygienic conditions for the plants, and some hospitals use Physan 20 in their mop water. Physan 20 acts as an algaecide, fungicide, bactericide, and virucide.

"They always get sickly." As soon as an embryo emerges it potentially needs a complete formula of all the soluble nutrients that plants need, including nitrogen (as nitrate or ammonium ions -- NOT urea), phosphorous, potassium, and calcium, as well as the micro nutrients magnesium (for chlorophyll), boron, copper, iron, zinc, manganese, and the ever popular molybdenum. Most "complete" soluble nutrients contain all of those except calcium, which needs to be either in your growing medium or your water supply or supplied in some form. I use calcium nitrate, as do most hydroponic growers. Plants need calcium in relatively large quantities, so it is classified as a macronutrient along with nitrogen-phosphorous-potassium, and not as a micronutrient. There are other vital micronutrients I haven't listed, but they are usually contained as contaminants in the environment or the nutrient formulas.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

My question is; what medium did you plant your embryo's in that contained all of the micro and macro nutrition needed? Why wouldn't an embryo contain all of the pertinent nutrition to germinate...that's what I have understood to be the case regarding seed germination. Many growers don't even entertain the idea of adding nutrients (fertilization) until the seedling has their true set of leaves?

ZM, I went to a hydroponic supply store specifically to purchase Physan20. The owner talked me out of it and proceeded to sell me something else. He told me that Physan20 was specifically used to disinfect hard surfaces and was not suitable in a direct contact connection to plants. He said that they tried it in their hydroponic system at an incredibly minute level and it killed all their plants. I was told that it would be impossible for me to dilute the solution enough to be hospitable to plants. I was looking at it for use in rooting cuttings to prevent rot.

I'm miffed now (really miffed) and think that if it doesn't kill an almost naked embryo, why wouldn't it have worked for my application?

Thanks for yet another brilliant lesson.

I also apologize for boning into your conversation Loretta and appreciate the fact you've induced some teaching moments. Please forgive my sometimes unharnessed enthusiasm.

Robin, don't even think about it! It's great!

Thanks...much obliged :)

Hi Robin,

I planted the embryos in Premier ProMix BX that I had wetted with a weak solution of Better-Gro Orchid Plus (1 teaspoon per gallon). The ProMix contains some calcium.

http://sunbulb.com/info/our-products/plant-food/orchid-plus/

It is true that a seedling's cotyledons contain enough nutrients to get it out of the ground and possibly to the first true leaf stage, but I grow a lot of seedlings and can't always keep a close watch on every batch to add that first feeding at just the right time. So, to be on the safe side, I make sure there is enough available nutrients in advance to get them into the first true leaf stage and beyond without any debilitating nutrient deficiencies. I treat the embryos the same as seeds. The seeds are just encapsulated embryos, so the two have the same needs. Loretta had said that her Dahlia embryos "always get sickly," and I was suggesting a nutrient deficiency as the possible cause, and proposing complete nutrition for them as a solution to the problem.

" He told me that Physan20 was specifically used to disinfect hard surfaces and was not suitable in a direct contact connection to plants. "

Physan 20 can be applied to plants as well as to hard surfaces.

http://www.physan.com/

" He said that they tried it in their hydroponic system at an incredibly minute level and it killed all their plants. I was told that it would be impossible for me to dilute the solution enough to be hospitable to plants. I was looking at it for use in rooting cuttings to prevent rot. "

He gave you some incorrect information. Incidentally, my first use of Physan 20 was to prevent zinnia cuttings from rotting, and it worked very well in that role. Since I knew that I was going to use Physan 20 a lot because of its many useful 'cides, I decided to do my tests on Physan 20 and zinnias to determine at what levels Physan 20 would be toxic to zinnias. I had a lot of White Cactus zinnia seed, so I used several pots planted with them as test subjects. The first pot was a control, watered with pure distilled water. The second pot was watered with 1 tablespoon of Physan 20 in a gallon of distilled water. The third pot had 2 tablespoons, the fourth pot had 4 tablespoons, and the fifth pot had 8 tablespoons.

The results: the control pot germinated abundantly and very well. The same for the second pot -- 1 tablespoon Physan 20 had no harmful effect. The third pot (2 tablespoons) also germinated very well, but the seedlings looked a bit stunted--they were exhibiting symptoms of slight phytotoxicity. The fourth pot (4 tablespoons per gallon) exhibited significant phytotoxicity, with nearly half of the seedlings dying and the surviving ones badly stunted. The fifth pot (8 tablespoons) had severe phytotoxicity, with germination retarded and the few seedlings that tried to germinate died. After a week it had no survivors. In summary, one tablespoon of Physan 20 per gallon is just fine, with only good effects. Eight (8) tablespoons of Physan 20 per gallon were effectively herbicidal, with 100 percent fatality. Two (2) tablespoons per gallon were slightly phytotoxic, and four (4) tablespoons per gallon were noticeably phytotoxic.

I probably should repeat the zinnia test to explore the region between 1 tablespoon per gallon (safe) and 2 tablespoons per gallon (questionable). I suspect that 4 teaspoons per gallon would work fine, but that is just a supposition at this point. And other plants may very well have different phytotoxic thresholds for Physan 20. There is a Mixing Guide at the Physan site that suggests 1.5 teaspoons per gallon (half a tablespoon per gallon) as a soil drench for seedlings. That sounds safe and effective for seeds and embryos.

http://www.physan.com/mixing-guide.html

Incidentally, as soon as you dilute Physan 20 with water, it starts to slowly lose its strength, so it is best to mix it fresh before you use it, and don't store the diluted Physan 20 for a period of over a week or two. That is actually a good thing, because you can freely spray your garden plants with Physan 20, knowing that the runoff will not accumulate in your soil, but will break down.

'' I'm miffed now (really miffed) and think that if it doesn't kill an almost naked embryo, why wouldn't it have worked for my application? "

It would have worked for your application. I have used Physan 20, diluted one tablespoon per gallon, to root zinnia cuttings, on many occasions, with nothing but good effects. Fortunately, by using rooting hormones, my zinnia cuttings have struck roots in 10 days to 2 weeks, during which the Physan 20 has become noticeably weaker, but has lasted long enough for the cuttings to have protected themselves from rotting with a good callus. But my zinnias cuttings always rot if I try to root them without Physan 20.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Wow, thanks for taking all of that time to provide the inside scoop ZM. Argh, if only I had come to you first. See, that was a great lesson, you're a great Teacher!

Loretta had said that her Dahlia embryos "always get sickly," and I was suggesting a nutrient deficiency as the possible cause, and proposing complete nutrition for them as a solution to the problem.
[/quote]

Whoops, I wasn't clear. I never had trouble with the dahlias nor did I try embryo only with them. They were various other types, and as you pointed out, not green coats. That would be something to experiment with this year.

Hi Loretta,

OK, so what things were "sickly"? Since you are breeding dahlias, you might benefit from using the embryo technique on dahlia seeds.

ZM