It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6

And to you too.
LOVE the pic!

Nice artwork on that New Year Zinnia ZM. I've been off caring for three grandchildren at one time and just after they went home, I finally succumbed to an unwelcome bout of the common chest and head cold for a few days. I'm happily on the mend now.

Because I have a small fenced yard, I can't see me getting Guinea. That doesn't mean I don't want them (believe me, I'm working on devising a way). I've been reading up on them and have come to the conclusion you guys are really smart. Thanks so much for the introduction and pics of your beautiful gardens and fowl.

Hi everyone,

Well, our snow cover is in the process of melting off. Except on the north side of the house. My indoor zinnia project continues. This is a picture of a recent specimen that bloomed. I will probably use it as a female for some of my less conventional zinnia types. I like its yellow color and "open" flower form. More later. I am planting a few seeds for a second indoor zinnia crop.

ZM

A good resolution is for me to work on moving to a more rural area, it sounds perfect for me. Just have to convince my DH...

Happy new year all!

Hi everyone,

This is a new bloom with some "uproll" traits on its petals. Not the best expression of the trait, but you take what you can get. I do like it that the back sides of the petals are nearly white.

More later. I plan to watch the Kansas City Chiefs football game on TV in a little while. I'm curious to see if they can extend their winning streak by another game. I think they will be in the playoffs one way or the other, regardless of how the game turns out. I think their hope is to get through the game with no key players injured. And another win would be good.

ZM


This message was edited Jan 3, 2016 2:56 PM

Interesting uproll on the above zinnia. It is great that you have zinnia blooms - makes for an uplifting winter.

I'm working on a king quilt and a rag rug. I've worked on the king quilt off and on for the past previous two winters - so best I get-r-done this winter.

Hi Brenda,

" I've worked on the king quilt off and on for the past previous two winters... "

I know next to nothing about quilting, but are you doing that quilt entirely by hand, or do you have a sewing machine or even a quilting version of a sewing machine?

Another specimen exhibiting some uproll tendencies. Two developmental stages shown. More later.

ZM

I've never sown a quilt but I do know it's a LOT of work, it would be nice to get that project done Brenda.

Exquisite blooms as always ZM. I patiently wait for each one.

Yes - I agree with Mipii - "Exquisite blooms as always ZM.".
Wish my zinnia were blooming. Guess I'll settle for birdwatching today.

Hi everyone,

Some of my current indoors zinnias border on being actually ugly, like the "woolly" variant in picture #1. It does have a somewhat triangular shape, reminding me of a previous triangular bloom (picture #2).

Actually, I am not against the idea of having triangular shaped zinnia blooms. As I work toward one my goals to have each zinnia petal look like a separate flower, it isn't so implausible that those separate flowers could be in various shapes of arrangements, including triangular.

ZM

Hi Robin,

I just noticed your new avatar picture. That is very artistic and attractive. I would guess that you used some kind of Photoshop-type software to abstract artistic elements from a photo. I am attaching some zinnia pictures that were abstracted from a photo in Photoshop. Computer art is another interest of mine. Picture #1 is the original photo.

ZM

Yes Sir, my Avatar is a black pencil drawing produced from a digital image about ten years ago in Paintshop Pro. I also enjoy dabbling in graphics. Yours are beautiful.

I also think your second pic with the rolled petals is very interesting. I imagine the trait to have rolled petals with an explosion of color at the end (like fiber optics) is still something that can be perfected into an overall fuller perimeter.

Here's the last graphic I did...

That's amazing foliage, it'll be interesting following that development. Thanks for posting the original picture to compare to your New Years creativity, lol; that's a rare treat.

I'm sorry (for my team) my fiber optics comment wasn't original and you thought of it first. It looks like I subconsciously picked it up and credited myself for the brilliance. LOL, I'll keep trying to smarten up on my own.

I've got another reason to right click and select 'View Image'...if a mobile device uploads a photo upside down, the function will correctly orient the image.

Hi Robin,

My zinnias continue to produce interesting results. That first picture is a pair of similar blooms that have the same maternal parent (which I guess makes them siblings). They are on different plants. The interesting thing is that the second picture was taken of their maternal parent (code-named I49). I49 was a "Woolly" specimen that I treated as a tubular petaled zinnias and removed most of its petals to expose their internal stigmas for cross pollination. The chosen male parents were California Giants and Benary's Giants. Those crosses combined genes from some very different parents. So those first two zinnias are very interesting F1 hybrids. They have the potential for producing some totally new zinnia types in their F2 progeny, in which novel recombinations of genes are the rule. My zinnia project continues to fascinate me. More later. It may be below zero here in the morning.

ZM

I see purple in the one zinnia bloom and soft pink in the other of the two zinnia picture. Interesting always. Good luck on something spectacular!

ZM - Tell me what you think. I've always know tuberoses as white (whether Pearl double or Mexican single). Now I'm seeing where some of the seed order catalogs (with bulbs) are offering a single yellow bloomer and a double pink bloomer. If I purchase some of these and plant along side of my white tuberoses - will all the bulbs stay true to the color they are? You know that tuberoses reproduce from the multitude of bulbs that they make each year. When I harvest my tuberoses, I bust up the bulbs into smaller sections of bulbs for replanting the following year. Any comment on the tubers would be appreciated.

Thanks!

brenda

ZM I can understand the fascination, what an amazing Genus Zinnia is. Either they have an never-ending gene pool or your extraordinary breeding decisions have made it look like they do.

Whatever the case, I'm so happy to follow the magic. I also find your closed Gentian type (149) very interesting too. I'm sure attaining the plateau of "novel recombinations of genes are the rule" is a breeders paradise.

Very nice.

Brenda,

" If I purchase some of these and plant along side of my white tuberoses - will all the bulbs stay true to the color they are? "

I can't pretend to be an expert on tuberoses, but I am relatively certain that growing side by side will not alter their genetic content. If you actually wanted to cross them, you would have to take pollen from one and apply it to the stigmas of the other to set hybrid seeds. But those hybrid seeds would not alter the genetics of the bulbs or bulblets of the parent plant.

" You know that tuberoses reproduce from the multitude of bulbs that they make each year. When I harvest my tuberoses, I bust up the bulbs into smaller sections of bulbs for replanting the following year. "

The bulbs and bulblets are a form of asexual propagation, and hence will maintain genetic purity. Those white ones look nice next to the purple zinnias.

ZM

Hi Robin,

" I can understand the fascination, what an amazing Genus Zinnia is. "

I don't think we have scratched the surface of what zinnias can do.

" I'm sure attaining the plateau of "novel recombinations of genes are the rule" is a breeders paradise. "

It is. That is not overstating it. When I started this hobby I never dreamed that it would get to this state. Every week or two something new "pops up". A case in point is the rather ugly Woolly zinnias. That first picture was taken today, and it seems to be another Woolly bloom with an approximately triangular shape. It has those closed-end sausage-shaped petals, which have interesting possibilities in cross pollinations.

The second bloom (picture also taken today) shows some influence from Woolly genes. The Woolly plays the part of "the ugly duckling" from the children's story and the second bloom is "the beautiful swan". Its petals have a vaguely sausage-shaped configuration, but they are open. The white petal backside coloration works well with it, and enhances the look of the inside baby pink coloration.

The overall silhouette of the bloom is approximately like a conventional zinnia, yet the bloom has a novel but subtle understated new look. I will eventually think of a name for it. I would like to turn that zinnia into a new strain of zinnias, with a complete color range and larger bloom sizes. More later. Snow is forecasted here for tomorrow.

ZM

Hello everyone,

This current picture shows an apparently improved Razzle Dazzle. It may be that it is an F1 hybrid with a tubular exotic type. Hopefully I can get a decent number of offspring from this.

ZM

Hi ZM-
I like the latest Razzle Dazzle.
But I think you have a huge opportunity with the purplish base on the leaves above.
I have a Dahlia "David Howard" with orange blooms over dark foliage, quite stunning, plus the ugly old brown flowers do not show up at all from several feet away so it does not need to be deadheaded. Here is a not very good photo to show you the effect.
I think you could make a strain of zinnias with dark or variegated foliage, and this should be patentable. And saleable (if that is a word).

Great idea Pistil, you are a value added contributor. I can see a wonderful dark variegation coming out of that combination too.

Hi Pistil,

I will take your advice to heart regarding the zinnia with colored leaves. It's a rather small beginning now, but who knows what might show up in its progeny?

Incidentally, Robin commented above that "'I've got another reason to right click and select 'View Image'...if a mobile device uploads a photo upside down, the function will correctly orient the image." I notice that works on your David Howard Dahlia picture above, by converting it from the landscape format imposed by the DG system to a portrait format occupying the full screen height.

" I think you could make a strain of zinnias with dark or variegated foliage, and this should be patentable. And saleable (if that is a word). "

It is a word. As far as I know there are no patented zinnias in the marketplace at the present time. I don't know what the plant patent laws are with respect to seed propagated plants. The many patented ornamentals in the garden centers are asexually propagated one way or another. None of the patented ornamentals are zinnias.

I have grown zinnias from cuttings many times, but I do not consider it a practical way to market zinnias. For the time being I will see what I can get in the way of colored zinnia foliage by seed propagation from the specimen shown.

I agree with Robin. You are a "value added" contributor.

ZM

Interesting about the patents as applying to annuals. Probably the only way to make money is to develop your stable seed strain, then sell it to some seed company to bring to market?
Were you thinking of doing this with your Razzle Dazzles once you get them where you want?
I believe "Hybrid" seed strains can be patented, when applying for example to Hybrid corn. This is where "Hybrid" has it's meaning as crossing two different stable seed strains in a big way, to produce huge numbers of virtually but not quite identical seeds(F1 offspring), where the offspring are very stable. hybrid seems to have several meanings, and is sometimes used to describe the result of what I would call "Breeding".

ZM or Brenda, have either of you been excited at all about the
Candy Cane or Candy Stripe Zinnia's?

Hi Robin,

Many years ago when I first "discovered" the striped and spotted zinnias I could hardly wait to cross them with other zinnias. At that time I was very partial to spider flowered zinnias, and I envisioned how "cool" it would look to have long slim petals with long slim stripes running down them. I did do some perfunctory crossing between Burpee Hybrids and Peppermint Stick Improved. Incidentally, the Peppermint Stick Improved have the widest range of striped and spotted color combinations. Pretty much every possible combination of zinnia colors, and that is a lot of combinations.

But I became fixated on the scabious flowered zinnias and pretty much forgot about my striped spider project. Then one morning I found this specimen in my newly blooming recombinants (Pic #1).

I was shocked and alarmed. I had not done any crosses between striped zinnias and scabious types, and suddenly this striped and spotted thing seemed to threaten getting out of control. And the effect started to look more like a disease to me. I remembered that the original striped and spotted Tulips were caused by a virus disease. (The modern day version is safely genetic.) So I "swore off" breeding with Peppermints and similar zinnias.

That is not to say that you couldn't get some amazing zinnias with the striped and spotted color patterns. They are just "not my cup of tea". There are some blended colorations that I like. They come via the Whirligig Zinnia hybrida route, and Whirligigs are responsible for most of my zinnia variations from the norm. In fact, my entire zinnia project is probably accurately categorized as Zinnia hybrida, indicating a combination of Z. elegans genes and Z. haageana genes. Essentially all of my zinnias are now of inter-species hybrid origin.

The other pics (pic #2 & pic #3) show some blended effects that differ significantly from the Peppermint Stick effect. When you are blending oil paints with a knife, you can get some streaked effects that are more subtle and distinctly different from the "stripes & spots".

If you do decide to work with the Candy Cane and Candy Stripe zinnias, also take a look at the Peppermint Stick zinnias (particularly the improved strain) and the new Pop Art zinnias. The Pop Arts are currently available in Red/White and Scarlet/Yellow combinations.

ZM

Ha, I don't have the room for an extravagant breeding operation like yours ZM. I am relegated to breeding very selectively with perennials and have recently selected a focus on Daylilies, which seedlings are currently occupying all of my indoor growing space.

I will however, be inspired and delighted viewing results of your efforts as this last entry is a good case in point. Your pics #2 & #3 are more beautiful than all of the aforementioned commercially produced spattered and striped varieties.

Candy cane and candy stripe - not that interesting to me. Not large enough to keep my interest. This is about the best I have in the candy strip mix-photo#1.

ZM introduced me to the scabiosa zinnia and I REALLY like them. Thank you again ZM! Last year was a first for me and the scabiosa - photo#2 . We'll see what transpires, for me, from those seed for 2016.

ZM - Those colors in the above scabiosa are grand.

I hope you get some pleasant surprises Brenda, I can see why you like the Scabiosa type also. I sure do like the coloration of your avatar Zinnia...it's yummy.

Hi Robin,

Brenda's avatar zinnia is like some of her zinnias with up-curled petals, which gives them a spoon-shaped look that resembles some dahlia flowers much better than the so-called Dahlia Flowered commercial strain. Brenda's zinnias inspired me to grow some commercial California Giant zinnias and Benary's Giant zinnias, looking for some examples of that petal structure to add to my genetic mix.

The Benary's Giants and the California Giants both have extra large sturdy plants, and by including them in my genetic mix I hope to get stronger plants. As I recall, the lavender zinnia was a California Giant and the pinkish zinnia was a Benary's Giant. I am going to place added emphasis on improving zinnia plants, as well as their flowers.

ZM

Robin & ZM - thanks for the kind words. Always uplifting to get good comments.

ZM - great colors on your zinnia above with the up curl.

Speaking of up curl - the one below - definitely has that. The color is really different. I may have shown you this one before..... This was one of my October 2014 keepers. In 2015, we had a wet June/July, so I was limited on offspring of this one, as I had them planted in the back middle rows of the #2 & #3 picture below. The area is a low lying area and a lot of it was under water many times June/July 2015. A lot of the zinnia toughed it our and I know I lost a lot from the get go.

January sure went by quick - it will be zinnia planting in no time for me. ZM - keep enjoying your winter zinnias.

Hi Brenda,

Yes, January really did speed by. You are right, that first bloom really caught my attention when you first showed it. A unique light brown color, and fantastic upcurled petals. That bloom alone is responsible for my extensive growth of California Giants and Benary's Giants. It definitely showed yet another intriguing thing that "zinnias can do."

I am going to be placing greater emphasis toward improving the zinnia plant structure itself. I am even including a small amount of Potassium silicate in my indoor nutrients, because Silicon is said to increase the cell wall structure, which can make for stronger stalks and limbs and even increase disease resistance. I have to be careful to not overdo the Potassium silicate, because it is a rather alkaline solution. I probably should start measuring the pH of my nutrient solutions. Most competent hydroponics growers do that routinely.

On the subject of zinnia plant structure, occasionally you will see an emerging seedling with three cotyledons instead of the usual two. Occasionally that "plan of three" will continue up the stalk as the plant grows. I have an indoor plant that has done that, and I am selfing it with the hope that some of its progeny will repeat the plan of three. I refer to such zinnia plants as "threesies" and use the abbreviation "3Z".

In past years I have seen some zinnias with side branches that were 3Z. I have yet to see a zinnia plant that had both a 3Z stalk and 3Z branches, but that is a goal of mine. Increasing the plant structure by 50% could be ornamental. I am still not certain that the 3Z trait is genetic. But I kind of think it is. More later. Indoor zinnias demand a lot attention.

ZM

Thanks ZM, I couldn't see the spoon shape on the petals of the avatar, nor could I tell it was a Giant.

Speaking of avatar's Z, have you been doing some magic on yours?


Dahlia (my limited photographic skills).

Hi Robin,

That is a great picture of that Dahlia, and a great looking Dahlia. I would be pleased to develop a strain of zinnias that looked like that.

"Speaking of avatar's Z, have you been doing some magic on yours?"

When avatars were first instigated on Dave's Garden, there were members who found them distracting, and Arlene (handle "pirl") requested back in 2013 to make their visibility an individual user option. Read more here:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1308227/?hl=

Apparently the DG "powers that be" decided to ignore the request for optional avatar visibility. The issue was raised again in this current revision to the DG site. I sided with Arlene, but until the Internet Brands representative entered the fray recently, Terry and Melody were not very responsive to user requests. Someone suggested that Arlene mask the avatars by taping a strip of cardboard onto the left-hand side of her monitor. I requested that individual users be allowed to not have avatars, but that request was also ignored.

So I did what I could to not have an avatar, myself. I entered an avatar consisting of a 65 x 65 pixel square of "background color". That is my own feeble protest against forced avatars. Arlene (pirl) opted not to renew a few weeks ago over this issue. Several paying subscribers have already left, or are in the process of leaving Dave's Garden over their ongoing dissatisfaction with how they are being treated.

The "powers that be" could have made avatar visibility a user Preference option fairly easily, simply by replicating the code that currently makes advertisement visibility a user Preference option. I think they could have installed that change overnight. But they chose not to. I personally am inclined to "go with the flow" and renew my membership when it comes due. I actually like some of the changes that have been made. I might even some day enter a less invisible avatar. But no time soon. More later.

ZM

That's what I thought you did, but I didn't know why. Now I know the rest of the story. Thanks for hangin in there...you're one of our best resources!

Hi Robin,

Thanks for the kind words. With respect to those nice looking real Dahlias, many of them have wide petals. Not all of them, there are "cactus flowered dahlias" as well as "cactus flowered zinnias". My liking for wide petals in zinnias is a relatively new thing. My original zinnia breeding goal (back in 2005 when I first took up zinnia breeding seriously when we lived in Maine) was spider flowered zinnias. Zinnias with long thin petals. I thought that tipping long thin petals with white or a light color would add an interesting enhancement. These pictures show some of my spider flowered wannabes. More later.

ZM

That was an interesting enhancement, one that was achieved I might add. It looks like the new emphasis with Dahlia's is the reverse; lighter colors toward the throat and bleeding into a darker color at the tips or edges. The inspiration for those Dahlia's came from Lotus.

Hi Robin,

" It looks like the new emphasis with Dahlia's is the reverse; lighter colors toward the throat and bleeding into a darker color at the tips or edges "

Lighter colors toward the throat is unusual in zinnias. It can happen, it just isn't common. I am sure that persistent selection for the trait could make it more common. More later.

ZM