Garden[ing] Ethics?

@Sally:

I understood your post: I just wanted to clarify - a big thing among philosophers :-)

I saw someone a few years back 'harvesting' wild flox at the edge of a public space. She was filling up a small wagon with plants. When she saw me looking at her she said, "They don't belong to anybody." I was tempted to point out that the plants 'belonged to' everyone, but did not.

What grows on one's own property is clearly a different matter. As long as one does not utterly strip a large area (and, let's face it, most natives will recoup), I do not see that as a problem. I certainly have 'relocated' natives in order to spread them out.

I often muse about the possibilties of thinning out all the roadside plantings of daffodils and daylilies, those things that we know are huge and thick after a couple years, and could use dividing.

Great tie ins here as Garden Clubs were instrumental in what culminated in the Highway Beautification Act, signed in to law in 1965 and spearheaded by LadyBird Johnson. One of the stated missions of Garden Clubs/societies is to beautify the public space. The proceeds of 2012 Philly Flower Show went to planting a million trees and other projects they sponsor in Philly.

There certainly are "ethics" on the books for the Philly Show and Garden Clubs as mentioned in this blog by a multi-timed judge at the Philly show. Interesting behind the scenes look!
http://thegardendiaries.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/aloha-behind-the-scenes-at-the-philadelphia-flower-show/

The above article also states that exhibitors are subsidised for plant materials to level the playing field between MrsRich and Gail Gardener. The main emphasis is to have the best show ever while educating the participants and general public in the process and raising the aestetic bar in what is possible horticulturally (if I'm not totally mistating the three general goals)

Back to the highway plantings. The most successful projects are those sponsored or adopted by a group that volunteers to plant and/ or maintain a section. Many times this care and maintenance is sorely lacking..new trees are not watered until established, wild flower meadows are mowed or sprayed. Generally bulbs and other dividables are just pulled and replaced (or not) when "beautification craze" or funding lapses...Many gardens here depend on volunteer s...Paca, Londontowne, Quiet Waters, and didn't someone here used to volunteer at Longwood? Isn't volunteering part of being a Master Gardener?

In West Virginia and many other states it is illegal to collect any plant material within 100 feet of any road way, state land, etc without express written permission . Many plants and their habitats are protected by federal and state laws from 'collecting' or disturbing (Do Not Pick the Flowers) (Stay On The Trail) (No fire wood allowed). etc.




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This message was edited Jul 3, 2012 7:48 AM

Sissy, I'm going to play devils advocate here with two of your statements above.

First, "(let's face it, most natives will recoup)"
I think this is a common misperception. Yes, 'natives' are well adapted to an areas growing conditions, soils and ecosystem plant communities, but that doesn't mean they will bounce back from interventions or be able to adapt in time to survive let alone thrive. I offer a Quote from the National Arboretum:

"Does digging wildflowers from the wild hurt the environment?
Absolutely! Removing wildflowers from the wild is harmful for three reasons. First, you diminish the natural population and consequently reduce the diversity within that population. With less diversity, a plant population may be less capable of responding to environmental changes; it may perish if suddenly stressed by disease, insects, or sudden extremes in weather. Second, nature is likely to fill the vacuum you create when you dig up a wildflower with a plant of a different species, often an invasive weed. Finally, wild collected plants often perform poorly in the garden. Plants propagated in a nursery or grown from wild collected seed or cuttings, are much more likely to survive transplanting. "
http://www.usna.usda.gov/Gardens/faqs/nativefaq2.html

and further from Arboretum site:
"Where can I get native plants?
Buy plants from a reputable nursery or grow them from seed yourself. You may be surprised to learn that some wildflowers are still taken from the wild to be sold at commercial nurseries, particularly the slow growing trilliums, orchids, and lilies. This practice has a negative impact on biodiversity and often the plants don't survive. When buying native plants make sure that the nursery propagates what it sells or buys from wholesalers who propagate plants from nursery grown stock plants. Fortunately, conservation-minded native plant nurseries that specialize in propagating and selling native plants have sprung up all over the country; your local native plant society may be able to recommend one to you. You can also check our Plant Sources Page for tips on finding sources for native plants.

The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center is a great resource for all kinds of native plant and wildflower information. The Center's web site at www.wildflower.org lists state wildflower and native plant societies."

To put my own twist on this, we can't ethically keep plantlifting from nature because nature has so many that one or two or all won't be missed, and besides, I want to and I can.

Second, your statement. "I do not see that as a problem"
Whether or not we see something as a problem does not mean that something is or is not a problem, but may influence our future actions. And, if it isn't seen as a problem for me or you,for who or what might it be a problem ?
Perhaps the plants and the critters who depend upon them and upon whom they depend.

Very nice article, Thanks for the link Coleup.

I bought a very pretty coleus at a nursery a few years back ("twist n twirl") and it had stated on it that it was trade marked. Later I read that you are not allowed to propagate trade marked plants. Come on! You mean to tell me it's against the law for me to take a stem cutting and propagate this coleus I bought? Isn't that taking things a bit too far?

Here's a lengthy discussion of field collecting natives
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1200822/
~~
Here coleuslover-
http://library.findlaw.com/2002/Dec/11/132431.html

It would take a lot to get them to come after you but- a whole lot of money goes into developing cultivars.

Patented plants for sure can't be propagated to sell. Propagated to share or to multiply it in your own garden? More of a grey area, I think. And what about taking a "backup" cutting in case your original purchased plant dies? That's almost like backing up a program when you've paid for a software license, the idea being what you've paid for is the right to have and use a copy of the program... or in this case, the right to have a particular (patented) plant in your garden, whether or not it's the original one you purchased.

@Coleup:

I had no idea that hatives could be so fragile. And, of course, I was assuming one did not really thin out or remove all the plants from one area. I move wild daylilies around every few years: both to spread them out and to keep any one area from becoming clogged with them.

As for 'problems,' you are quite correct that not seeing a problem is not the same as there not being one.

Ok. I'll throw out two others (I would love it if others raised their own issues):

1) Critters who harm our plants: ok to kill them? does it matter if they are insects or mammals?

2) Chemicals in the garden: are you all orangic, somewhat organic, or not concerned? What should we think about when we use chmeicals that might be harmful to the surrounding environment?

Excellent responses all...I'm enthralled with the conversations....

Being in a townhouse I don't have much yard...and having the 3 fairly large dogs mammal critters don't seem to have a desire to enter my back yard...LOL. I prefer to deter rather than eradicate. We did have a situation (as did many neighbors) w/skunks out front last year. I found where they where they'd dug under my stoop and place cotton balls dipped in a mix of cayenne/garlic/tea tree oil right outside the opening late one night. They decided to go else where. I even leave most the bugs alone as I figure they're food for something else....of course I don't have much of an issue with buggies destroying what I have growing out there. I will, as stated previously, spray with the neem mixture Sally turned me on to IF something is getting to be too much (read white fly population) LOL I've even taught the little ones that lady bugs are good for many reasons. When they find them - they'll bring them to our front yard asking which plant 'needs' them. My DD (their mommy) just grins and shakes her head. They'll point out toads on the sidewalk at night (so we can 'herd' them into the yard) and are no longer afraid of the bats after we've discussed what wonderful 'skeeter' catchers they are. They know many of the plants are grown out there specifically for the hummers and esp. the honey bees. I use most of the herbs I grow in honeys, oils and even make tinctures etc...so for me - I don't want chemicals sprayed out there. I will never forget years ago - the owner of the townhouse beside me had someone power washing their siding. I got home and my son ran out to me saying "Mom, don't worry - I asked him what he was using to clean with since it was right next to some of your plants." Gotta love kids...even as teenagers...they DO listen despite acting like they don't. My lovely HOA (the same ones that get excited when my vines in the back yard [backs to woods] grow over MY fence) decided they needed to pay the landscape co to 'spray.' Seriously?!? Poor guy - I came out and the smell!! I approached him asking what he was spraying and why. It was a chemical fertilizer and weed killer. So now the clover is gone (poor bunnies and bees) and we have attractive brown patches. I told him to please not spray in close proximately to my yard if he needed to come back - showed him which was my yard (hard to miss LOL) and explained I didn't mind the clover. Sweet guy...he smiled and said no worries, he'd make sure he didn't spray near my yard if they sent him back.

Bunnies out there eating my clover right now. One cheeky devil was up on the deck. Ric planted it to make the grass tougher for the kids to play on. Only problem was how often he needed to mow. Just miss it by a day and the clover flowers and the honey bees come in. We have a lot of weeds growing in the grass and I asked him to treat the yard and the first thing he said was that would kill the clover.
There is the issue that I provide all the things these animals & bugs want in my gardens, The right plants plenty of water and then I'm not happy when they eat my prized plants. If only they were good house guests and eat those things I don't care about but no they have to raid the fridge and get to the good stuff.

Well- I have had battles with critters but the smaller they are the easier it is to stomach killing them. I've trapped voles and squished lots of bugs, but bunnes, squirrels, and groundhogs- its harder to come to grips with. I do not spend a lot of money in the garden so I cannot justify killing them on the basis of cost to me. I take critter damage as an unavoidable variable, like weather., just shrug and move on. I think others have the right to do what they want..

1) I do not tolerate species that are not native, that infest my land. This includes Japanese Beetles and Stink Bugs.
But I am known to LOVE other species, so there is a balance on my land.

As far as furry varmints, Hubby traps them and they go to the family farm. But, Bambi? I use the natural stinky anti-Bambi chemicals (which work), but cars also have their way with them due to our proximity with the busy road, and so does my contractor (who is a "Good 'Ole Boy" and travels with his rifle at all times), when one is hit...(now, THAT's a story!)

2) I am on well water and extremely aware of chemicals. We have a responsibility to the Earth, and that includes (not) allowing plagues of varmints to multiply, by way of eating you literally out of house and home (and successfully ridding us of native species). Have to think beyond yourself and more global.

@Grayce:

We have well water, as ...well (ouch). This is one reason our 'lawn' is mostly gone to weeds: everything I look at for large-scale control is scary.

We have been using the Hav-a-Hart traps for years and are barely keeping ahead of the groundhogs. I use stinky sprays for the deer and rabbits (although that does rather spoil one's enjoyment of the garden beds).

I think your comment about being responsible about invaders is interesting. It can be very difficult to find the right balance: how to control destructive species without poisoning the earth.

Speaking of ethical matters: Am I expected to maintain/orchestrate this thread? I ask this because some other thread-starters seem to take their role as managers very seriously, and I am not sure I am up to it!

I'm not quite sure, Sissy. I have started a thread or 2 in here, but personally, I am very lax about maintenance/orchestration. Then again, I tend to be a chatty person, so as long as there's activity and chatting on a thread I've started, I'm happy. =) I guess it all tends to be a personal preference thing, but that's just a guess.

I'm not sure how much of an "ethical" thing this is, but the discussion of critter control leads me to think of this: Non-natives aside (ie: Japanese beetles which were introduced to this country from elsewhere), how "natural" is it, really, for us to 'control' what eats what, and where, including in our gardens? On one hand, it is nature's cycle of things for some species to temporarily dominate; eat all the prey available to the point of over-running an area. Then, once there is no longer a food source left, that 'dominant' species will eventually starve out and/or move elsewhere, thus allowing the 'prey' species(es) to re-populate the area. Thus is the cycle of nature. When we go out there and repel/spray-to-kill/trap-and-relocate, are we not mucking about with nature's cycles of things? Is that cool? I mean, as a yardener, I TOTALLY understand all the hard work we put into our babies, and we don't want stuff eating them and killing them, on the other hand, just because we're at the top of the food chain, does that **really** mean we have the right to decide what everyone else can or cannot eat? (and, when I say "everyone else", I mean non-human).

Like I said at the start, I'm not sure how much of an "ethical" subject this is, but it does make me wonder. Any thoughts?

speedy, Our "yardens" are atypical when considering natural habitat, may of us expend a lot of time and money keeping them that way. I would much rather see repelling or relocation of native species used if possible, to keep them as natural as possible, and retain what patience and sanity left.
If we all were striving to be a certified natural habitat there would be not question to the issue, so are we wrong or upsetting the cycle just by interfering by introducing non-native plants. Since humans are the only species to contemplate beauty and express it in our efforts, I'm not going to ask the ground hog eating everything from Asters to Zinnias his opinion. Even the Cro-Magnon enjoyed his art, even if it represented his dinner. Ric

speedie well said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ric, too. If we were pioneers on the frontier, killing the groundhog would be survival for us, or death by losing our vital crops, not to mention the needed protein.

I think the weighting falls on :
is it a luxury, or a necessity?
and
how much money and labor is invested VS the loss caused by damage?

@ sissy about "thread-iquette"

I think, since you started it, you may help perpetuate if you wish, or sit back and let it follow whatever course comes along. If the discussion seems lively and continuing on the original topic, then making a continuation thread after about 200 posts is often nice for anyone who has slower loading internet.

I think thread joiners should remember original topic and be sensitive to keeping the thread somewhat on topic.

On topic threads, and efforts to keep them active, and new threads with new topics , encourages new participants.

sallyg, we ended up having 3 of these eating machines here at once doing a lot of damage, and each day showing less fear. The bunnies do very little damage and love trimming the clover in the lawn, we have a truce with them. Deer are infrequent invaders, but even they can run up a pretty good tab in just one night. To go out in the morning and find every tulip in the plantings sans center and bud is to me upsetting. Alfie gets a lot of leash walks (to mark his territory) when they come calling. I've also used hair, and blood meal to deter their visits. Ric

Ric, I hope it didn't sound as if I have no sympathy for the stricken gardener. I guess I forgot to say the extent of damage done is a factor.
Beleive me, I can taste your frustration. A few years ago, I fixed up a small flower bed at Moms yard. I brought Stella D'oros and got her a potted tomato plant for the patio. I really looked forward to her sitting on her swing and seeing the flowers. I was just sick when the buds were all eaten. Deer came through, nothing to fear in her quiet yard. Something ate her tomatos. I could have cried; how unfair to pick on my poor mom.

Grrrrr, No dear deer there! No offense intended, none taken. If I were not free to act against the vandals, I simply wouldn't bother planting. LOL Ric

When you come right down to it, aren't WE the critters that need to be controlled? If we destroy natural habitat to build our homes, and to plant non-native species, aren't WE "the beginning of the end?"
All the foxes, squirrels, and other assorted native "varmints" look on as we encroach.

What I am saying is that, as we take the responsibility to step on other's land (meaning native species fuzzy and green), we are OBLIGED to be responsible to our environment. That includes learning how to get along with others, and making rules based on logic and reason. Meaning, wild habitat that "plays nice" should be encouraged to live with us, and what does NOT, well...you get my drift.

In the case of Japanese Beetles, for example, since mankind introduced them into a non-native environment, mankind has the responsibility of protecting the preyed-upon by those Beetles.

(Ric-TOTALLY agree with the non-typical nature of our walk with yards and all...)

Or else we should just get out of their space! (Just call me a true Alpha female.)

Well said, that's sorta what I was thinking when I brought it up, (the comment about "being at the top of the food chain"), but I think you worded it better. Just because we **can**, does that necessarily mean that we **should**?

And yes, just how much damage is done is a factor as well... but isn't that subjective? What I consider to be 'too much', another might see as "well, that's just nature doing its thing", or any other shades of variance in between. There are so many little 'micro-environments' to consider, like our own little patch of yard. While we may not be wiping out an entire state's worth of plants, maybe nature would have it that there are 'supposed to be' a certain number of *these* critters eating these certain number of *these* specific plants. Then we come along and say "Well, it's a native, I'm not killing it, I'm just gonna move it over *there* instead; that should be alright". And now we have taken away/relocated the food source for the certain number of *those* critters,... the butterfly effect, ya see? How do we **really** know what effect(s) we are having, long-term?

Now, all this is NOT to say we should stop gardening or let our yards run amok, Heavens to Betsy NO, but.. just stuff to think about.

And I am completely in agreement when it comes to Japanese beetles; they all must go!! Especially when they are eating the BUDS of my Echinacea to the point where I don't even have ONE bloom!! < =P

Really enjoying everyone's posts.

Ditto to Holly's comment.

Wow, you all are having a great conversation.

I think it is difficult, but important, for individuals to take a part in ensuring that we humans do not just occupy the planet and drive everything else out/into extinction. Sometimes this is a matter of what we do on our own land (chemicals, animal control, providing little habitats for birds, etc.), but there has to be a more 'political' aspect to it. I don't mean partisan politics (good grief, I come to DG partly to escape all that!), but sort of how we see ourselves as citizens.

So, example: If I had been around to attend the meetings at which a huge, dense development was planned right on open space - taking out not only the meadows but also the small forest - I would have been among those who tried to fight it. They lost and now the deer that used to have twice as much space are driving everyone nuts. The folks living in the development complain that they cannot even have containers on their decks, as the deer just jump up and eat everything. And of course, they put in enormous 'security' lights that have driven off the owls and bats... and so on.

How does one create a continuation thread (thanks for the tip about internet troubles)?

I agree with the 'kind of on-topice' view. I have found some thread starters a bit heavy-handed about keeping everyone on task (so it really does feel like a task). But, an gerneal etiquette of not going off the deep end makes sense, especially as it does not require anyone to play the role of enforcer!

Sissy, The easiest way to do a continuation thread is to copy and paste the address on a new thread with a like title and say we came from here http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1268367/#new. Then copy and paste the new thread address on your last posting of the thread being continued saying we continue here.
Hope that is clear. LOL Ric

This message was edited Jul 18, 2012 9:58 PM

Thank God I'm Polish 'cause I understood that perfectly! < =D

LOL

@ sissy
I totally agree with being sensitive to wildlife and natural areas. I value that a lot. But I have to question my commitment every time I look at our wasteful suburban development that we chose to live in. If I really cared, wouldn't I find someplace already ruined and wasted, and reclaim that? So much city space is now ruined for nature, and abandoned by people too. There are people in my neighborhood of 1/2 acre lots that seem to have no interest at all in anything besides keeping the grass cut. Am I right to look down on them? (Well yeah.. LOL)

We've created deer problems, and maybe a whole lotta more deer, by the way we make suburban development.

@sallyG:

Have you ever read any of Aldo Leopold's essays. His most famous ones are collected in "A Sand County Almanac." Many are about his reclamation of a ruined old farm. (I highly recommend this book to anyone who likes to read about nature; he was an astonishingly gifted writer.)

Thanks sissy, no, but I'll look him/ it up!

In considering the ethics of mankind living in whatever manner is chosen, I decided, when my dear husband offered for us to move to his rental, that I would go as "retro" as possible.
He kindly offered to bring the little cinderblock cottage up to date, but I really gave thought to this whole question. We did not get central air/heat, nor satellite access to the Net.
We refinished the hardwood floors (they are lovely), bought some wool braided rugs, installed those wide wood blinds on the windows, had a modest vinyl floor placed over the badly cracking original one (the settling had a major effect on the floor), repainted, and bought eco-friendly kitchen/laundry appliances.
We have antennae, well/septic, and propane for cooking and heat. We bought one of those "Vermont Stoves" that looks very Victorian, and it is just great. Cinderblock is great with insulation, it turns out. Our bathroom has the original old ceramic tub, and make-shift updates made by the guys who used to live in the house ('nuf said).
And, all on one small floor (900 square feet). Since we are heading toward our 60's, we are happy to have no stairs inside.
We could redo an old, historic home, but feel that we'd rather live our lives without this hassle. Honestly, suburbia is not for us - guess we old hippies just do not need the typical new home - we love our old house! My next mission? To buy an old clothesline and hang my sheets outside! Remember that?!

Remember that ? I do it LOL

That sounds lovely Gracye.

Grayce---

You made my heart go--AHHHH! The simple life!!! Not sure I could still manage that.....

If I had a "hippie" handyman man in my life--I may try to--and make do. I like the "feedom-life"...

However---I like my AC--and the heat in the winter--and I like my plumbing benefits.
I am spoiled a bit---but i am also the only one that has to pay for it all nowadays.

I live in the house WE bought in a new development in 1969. First house I ever owned...
And--in 1993 when we divorced--this house became MY responsibility. I am still here.
It changed my lifestyle a lot. Now, I had to pay my own bills. I became frugal to a fault!
I like same old---same old. I do not like changes. They cost $$$. I like my "comfort level to be there"....

By now--even though I live in the same development (almost 44 years) --My lifestyle has become so frugal
that I no longer remember the "other" lifestyle--when I relied on my husband to pay all the bills.
It suits me fine now . I am NOT a fancy life-style person.

Practical and resourceful to a fault...Will NEVER set foot in a Macys or a Kohls.
Thrift Shops have a lot more choices...For one--they still have pants that come up to your waist....

I can buy a watch for $2.99--because all i want is the watch band. Don't care if it runs or not.
Watch bands alone wil run you $10-$12. Nice tops--brand names--for $3 to $5 each.
Amazing "finds" in brick-a-brack department. You know--houseplant things....

Went to Kohls two days ago--because they sent me this $10 coupon--off of anything...FREE!
Drove 20 minutes to a Kohls---Spent another 45 minutes walking the store trying to find something I would like. NOPE!
Finally bought a top for $9.99 and, because of the coupon, I got it free. I suppose I can use it....sometimes...
Was this trip worth it????

Just my life style.....Simple and Cheap. Does that make ME CHEAP?????? Kapish?

I'm cheering for you, sallyg! And yes, I'm jealous - as a Living Historian, I have a ton of white cotton things that need to be washed after an event, and there's nothing like hanging white cotton clothing outside...

Gita, I have two window A/C units that provide all the the cooling needed (unreal, huh). And, the heat from that Vermont Stove in our Living Room blasts the whole house...LOL! The one concession was that I held out for a "Sand" colored cast iron stove.
I am a regular customer at Consignment Shops. In fact, I had to return a doubtfully-working barometer yesterday, via hubby, and sent a plate of Zucchini Bread to the staff. This is how I was taught, and seems that I am returning quickly to these manners.
I am like you - I believe that Thrift Shops and Consignment Shops are the perfect way to reuse items that have already been made, and just need a new home. You are not cheap, Gita, you are very wise! American Consumerism has blinded many to these commonsense options.

My mother and sister went to Macy's yesterday to buy some towels, as Mom had coupons. Said that the towels were not in sets - what??? I expect this of Tuesday Morning, but NOT Macy's. Ethics? sissy? Where are you on this topic?

Forgot to say that we have no power-eating dishwasher, and for the two of us, this works. Most of what I cook with needs hand washing anyway, and it is simple. I LOVE the few stations we get on our antenna - Andy Griffith is just fine, after a long day at work...

sissystars - our house used to have an outhouse. No joke. That was before my time...it is on historic property - I keep digging Civil War artifacts out of my garden - boy is it hard to quit digging! The soldiers used to camp on our land. So, ethically, we are respecting what we have, and keeping it as true to the history as possible.
Now, if any of you comes across an old cannon...I want to recycle it into our front yard!

Here is a thought for you, sissy - gardeners who have been taught by their elders how to grow automatically have a great respect for the earth and have the gift of lessons learned "the hard way." Those who are new to gardening have many lessons ahead of them, and there are the especially-gifted who are stars...they are very much tasked with learning how to ethically handle their actions with all things green, and must be so careful about advertising and latest fads... Agree? Disagree?

Hmmm.....very interesting topic. One of my pet peeves with my sons are that neither of them seem to be the least bit interested in recycling or reusing items. We save aluminum cans and crush them and eventually sell for scrap. I shred the heck out of every bit of paper that comes in to the house. As I was going through a weeks worth of (junk) mail earlier this week, I thought for a minute about the extra time it takes for me to go through and separate each piece of mail and make sure that non compostable items don't go in the shredder and wondered if it were worth it. Must be to me, because I am really giving my shredder a run for its money recently. The shredder is working over time since the past week or so I have spent unpacking the many storage totes that I packed up a month or so ago in preparation for having new carpeting laid. I used up loads and loads of newspaper to wrap breakables in.

Since becoming members of Dave's and learning about gardening for some years now, our compost bin has tripled in size. What the first year was about a five by five foot cinderblock area is now three areas that size. I know that my recycling habits bother some folks and they don't understand what the fuss is. I cringe when attending large gatherings and see recyclables trashed rather than going for recycling. I think of the money, time and energy that could be saved if more folks recycled.

I have been known to bring home cardboard food boxes from cereal and such that I have dug out of the trash at my older son's house. I know his wife says there goes the crazy lady when I leave with an arm full of boxes to take home and shred. She doesn't know that I am thinking that they are the crazy ones wasting so many garbage bags when if they took the time and effort to tear these same boxes to shredding size pieces, they wouldn't go through nearly as many costly trash bags.

While on the topic, some years ago I was very involved with the local Freecycle group until the message board became so busy that I didn't have the time to keep up with it. At one point a person made a request for folks to please save the Box Tops for Education in order for her to donate to her children's school. The box tops are little coupons found on many products and after donating to her the first year, I have now started my own collection and also cringe whenever visiting my son' home and the many items they throw in the trash with these coupons on them. I tear off the coupons at their place whenever I can. I want to have a good supply started in order to offer them to the schol where my grand daughter will begin attending kindergarten next month. The actual coupon is worth ten cents to the school, and if enough folks get on board, the school can turn them in to cash and buy computers and other class room items.

I suppose now that I brought the idea up that I hope that no one will mind if I use this forum to ask that those of you in charge of purchasing items for your home, food stuffs as well as paper goods to please take a moment to clip these Box Tops for Education for me and save them until we meet at a swap or enough is collected to make it worth the cost of a stamp to mail them to me. I would really appreciate it if anyone would begin doing this for me. I feel as though there goes a dime in the trash each time these coupons are thrown away. I have one other person currently saving them for me, but if I can present the school with enough for them to want to have the program, I will certainly do my part in helping collect them. Thank each of you for your consideration, and sissystar, I hope I haven't over stepped any boundaries by posting this here. Thanks all.

Okay, enough of my preaching for now. One more pet peeve and I will close. About two years ago I became very involved in reading and posting on some of the Clean and Clutter Free threads here at Dave's. One day it sort of hit me between the eyes, what a spoiled and selfish bunch we Americans are. If all most of us have to complain about is the excess of material possessions, what does it say for us as a nation? All over the world there are people who are hungry and little bitty old me sitting here complaining about how much extra junk I have. This realization didn't prevent me from continuing to discuss the topic or read every thing about it I could get my hands on, but it did open my eyes to just how fortunate I am to be able to say that one of my problems is that I own too much stuff.

With all of this said......hope that every one has an enjoyable and cooler weekend wherever you are.

Ruby