I discovered these cats this weekend on the C. alata I have babied from seed since spring. It is not more than 3'-4' tall. I hope the cats leave enough foliage so the plant can bloom before frost!
There are as many as 15 in varying stages of development. I have never reared sulfurs - does anyone take them in? Do they eclose or overwinter?
Please help with information.
Thanks.
~Amanda
Another view.
The plant.
Another question:
See the cat on the left? It looks different. Plus, it has black specs on it which came off when I brushed them. I was wondering if it is the same species sulfur and also whether the specs are poo or has it been parasitized?
This message was edited Sep 11, 2011 8:12 PM
I have never raised sulphurs, so happy you are getting the opportunity. The one pic looks like a neighbor pooped on the one! LOL!
Ha ha - let's hope that's all it is. Still don't know ANYTHING about raising sulfurs. Help! ;)
Okay, still don't know anything about raising sulfurs. They seem not to mind eating the dried up leaves left from yesterday, but just as many microscopic cats crawling about in the tupperware/rubbermaids made me think there might be a better way . . ..
I went out and looked at the leaves of the plant. They are pinnate and individual leaves don't have stems. I decided I would start from the bottom of the plant cutting and hopefully the new sprouts at top will do their thing. I took a terminal branch with 4 big leaves on it and wrapped the open cutting in wet paper towel and then aluminum foil as though I were going to ship it. It is standing upright in a large (dry!) plastic water pitcher (running out of containers and contraptions) and it took me gosh - at least an hour to transfer all these tiny cats from the 3 smaller containers into the large new one.
They all became very active when I offered them the chance to crawl from dried leaf/twig onto fresh leaf margins. I counted over 15 of them. About the temperature issue, I have put them on the back porch which I think will better simulate conditions for them. They won't get much sun, but at least the light and temperature is natural. I have them tied onto a shelf so nothing can knock them over!
Will keep you posted.
A.
Talk about a rig!
Picture is the cocoon of the Sleepy Orange Sulfur.
They assume a modified "J" position but both ends, front and back, are attached to a surface. The one in the photo is attached to a paper towel. It enclosed itself last night. There is another cocoon in the container. Still over a dozen cats in the container eating. Some are so tiny I am afraid to remove the old leaves.
A.
"Talk about a rig!". You're quire creative lady. And congrats on the first chrysalids.
Still don't know anything about raising sulfurs. I feel inept and bad for some reason. I found one cat at the bottom of the container yesterday writhing and put it out of its misery this morning. I wondered what I could have done differently, and I thought I was going to release them all today because it's "too much trouble."
It really is a lot on top of everything else. The monarch are driving me wild now (even tho' I only have 9) screaming "feed me" with their waving antennae.
Yesterday I took and released the giant leopard moth caterpillar that had escaped its container earlier in the week. I've been waking up in the middle of the night to look for it, and there it was finally yesterday at 2 a.m. stomping thru my living room.
Sheesh!
I will try to hang on . . ..
A.
I thought that just putting new leaves in their container everyday would be adequate since some of the cats are so small they are hard to find . ..
Anyway - I was wrong.
The leaves on the lower branches of the cassia alata seem to have very minimal moisture content and dry out rapidly. I got into that container yesterday (hadn't really been mucking around too much in there to be honest) and found some pretty sad looking cats.
They had lost their vibrant green color and looked sort of olive drab. Do they camouflage? They sort of matched the dried out leaves. I found 2 cats while I was out there cutting leaves to bring in and they were the fuzzy sort of emerald green that matches the leaves.
I quickly went out for new fresh growth (this means you cannot decide to take lower limbs/leaves to maintain the shape of your plant ) and tried to place each cat along a tear in the leaf. They appeared to be so weak I thought maybe I could lead the horse to water.
Anyway. The BST and Monarchs are taking less of my time so I can focus on these guys more. I hope they recover. Things look a little better today and they are more willing to move to the new leaf and start eating.
I don't think this is a hobby for someone who is gainfully employed. Ha haha .
On the upside, there are 7 chrysalis of the sleepy orange sulfur.
A.
Released the first sulfur caterpillar today. Came out of its cocoon and got stuck on the side of the container it was in. Looked a little iffy, but I got it on a papertowel and secured it to a post outside out of the elements in one of the flower beds. It was gone after several hours. Hope it got away okay.
The cocoon itself turned a very bright orange with a black spot this morning. I knew it was just a matter of time. I'll post a picture of the next one.
A.
p.s. Still finding sulfur cats on the senna.
Released another orange sulfur today - this one fared much better. :)
I do believe it is the same cat that chrysalized on 9/18 in my post, above. That means the metamorphosis process takes less than 2 weeks.
The remaining caterpillars are eating very well and getting fairly large. The new chrysalises are much larger than the first ones...
Keep you posted.
A.
This message was edited Sep 28, 2011 10:53 PM
Amanda....Great to see you are trying to do this even as you work. That is when I first started to raise them also, so I definately can relate. Don't give up, you are making a difference!
Have you tried the wet foam? It works better than anything I have tried. You only have to remoisten it every couple days with a spray nozzle in one of the hole that a stem is. I put it in a plastic pudding cup (cut down) and cover it with plastic wrap. Also collect the leaves early in the morning or after dark. During the day they are stressed and will wilt quicker. Taking a piece of wet paper towel out with you to place them in as you collect will help too.
Another thing the sulphurs will change to yellow when eating on the flower, and green on the leaves, so the change on dried leaves may be another camo technique.
Mine hasn't flowered yet. Also, with the season changing the plant does not get as much sun as it may need to bloom. It is still growing, but not as fast as I'd like. Planted the thing from seed in April (?!) or May. It is in the ground, not potted. Wonder if you all would recommend that I dig it up and try to bring it in? Not supposed to be perennial in my zone. Would hate to go thru this again next year! Ha ha.
I brought 3 more cats in today. Thanks for the tips Sheila. I was not prepared for the sulfurs necessarily and my setup was not/is not ideal. I have released sulfurs though, so it's adequate enough to do the job. Man! Some of these cats are so small you don't see them for days! That's why I was not disposing the old leaves. I keep a head count now so I know. I have 9 cats and at least 10 cocoons.
Thoughts on digging up the plant are welcome. It's a little over 3' - maybe pushing 4' high. It would prolly be okay in a pot. Just don't know what kind of roots to expect.
Thanks.
A.
Another sulfur emerged late this afternoon. That will be my 7th (?) release? Not terribly compulsive about the statistics of it all. Just making sure they eat and do their thing. The tiny cats sure are a challenge to transfer to fresh leaves! No bug left behind!!!
Stats are good to know. It makes the efforts seem so worth it. I raised around 50 one year and about half and half on gender with only a few casualties. I ended up with 96% released I think, so much better than the 2 or 3% survival rate they normally have. It makes me more committed to try every year to do what I can. I think there is only a hand full of yards with nectar plants in my neighborhood, so I am seeing a lot of Monarchs each day now.
Well I guess I'd better start looking at the C. alata and how best to do this. It's not THAT big, but it'll be a struggle to keep it indoors without the cat(s) eating it. For as many leaves as I've clipped, I could probably prune it back a little anyway. I see you're only in zone 8(a). I'm sending a purple mw seedling to a girl in Benton (?). I've had it since spring in a tiny 2" pot, never planted it. Anyway - she said your threat of frost is 10/29. I don't really pay attention to dates, just watch the weather.
She wondered what to do with this seedling. Leave it in a pot on the back porch or plant it in the ground...
I said she could plant it in the ground in a protected sunny spot. I would cover it with a milkjug greenhouse for protection - possibly leave it that way over winter.
What do you think? It's bound to have very nice roots. Won't know till Saturday when I uproot it to ship.
A.
I wouldn't begin to say, I don't have much luck with seedling transplants any time of the year. We are still having some pretty hot days (high mid 80s, low upper 50s) and I would be afraid of putting a jug over it right now. If it has good roots I would leave it uncovered until they predict a frost and take it off again the next day. I guess it is one that is perennial in our area?
Yes, perennial.
I guess I meant for frost. If she kept it in a pot outside overwinter I suspect it would have as much luck as any other perennial. Dunno - I don't tend to keep plants that way outdoors either. I'll tell her to ask around.
A.
I still have 4 cats - found another one on the Cassia out there today.
I have decided to try to root some cuttings of the Cassia. I think I might see a flower bud. That's very exciting. Even if I get 1 bloom! I will probably cover the entire plant when we finally get frost. It could continue to grow until . . ..
A DGr in TX suggested that the roots might be gigunda, so I will wait till the bitter end to try to dig it up. I'll prune it back and maybe trim the roots too depending what I find. If it survives all that . . . only one way to find out.
I haven't had a sulfur release in a few days, but should have one tomorrow. What's the lifespan and do they do anything - travel, overwinter, what's their story? Haven't got much idea.
A.
Amanda, I have been following your thread for a while. You seem to have much more activity on your plant than me. I only found 2 cloudless sulphur cats on my plants, but I have literally hundreds of hunting wasps that visit my plants daily. They might be eating all of the cats before I can find them. Honey bees also run frantically on the underside of the leaves and seed pods, completely away from the flowers, so I don't know what they are looking for. I planted 2 small (approximately 1 foot tall) plants in April, and they are easily 12 feet tall now. I wonder if planting from seeds made the difference in growth rate. My plants were purchased from a local nursery, but they had been growing for a while before I purchased them. I have harvested many seed pods and will be trying some from seed over the winter just in case mine freeze this year.
Thanks for your updates, and keep up the good work! I am interested in how things do for you over the winter. Like you, I wonder what the root structure of these plants look like.
Russell
One of many (photo) released on 10/4/2011.
I found the last cat on the plant 2 days ago, and it is moving pretty slowly with the remaining 2 cats in my sulfur container.
I started a single cutting the day I made the last post and brought it into my mist chamber (iguana's room/habitat). ha ha . This morning the temperature and humidity in there read 76/82%. Some days it seems the paint wants to peel off the walls. oops. I don't usually let it get that humid in there! We are renting this house, considering a purchase. I would strip the paint and add that moisture barrier stuff to the paint. ;)
The cutting seems strong.
I agree, Russell - a number of things here are working against this plant. You're probably right about the plants vs. the seedling. Also - I transplanted the seedling from where it came up in the soil to its current location. I inserted the seeds in beds around the yard and only 2 came up. One, I gave away. This one came up in an area where it was a bit shady. It took the seeds over a month to germinate, and then it had to deal with the stress of relocation. I did not treat the seeds in any way before they went in - may have benefited from scarification (?).
With the season change the plant gets only about 4 hours of morning sun and a little dappled sun in the afternoon. Not enough for a plant that needs full sun. It's not quite 5' tall. I am sooo envious of your giant!
There is a single bud on the plant. I will take a few more cuttings before frost and then consider digging the thing up for the winter. If I do that I will certainly take a photo of the root mass. I'm only supposing that I will have to prune the top back as well as the roots. It may suffer a bit, but it is a strong plant and should be okay.
As for other insects, the only other occupants are small ants which must like the sap which is exposed when the cats chew the leaf margins. Each cat was accompanied by an entourage of ants. Here in the Piedmont (or maybe just my own backyard) we may have fewer giant predator insects than you do in TX. I have a healthy population of pollinators in/around my house/gardens, but the honeybees stay on the basil mountain mint in the driveway for the most part. They may also be attracted to the sap of your plant. Wonder if it's good to eat? :D
The "daily photo" thread didn't seem to be the place for this post - I had a hard time finding info on the plant and/or the cats. Glad it might help others in the future.
A.
Thanks for the info! If you can get more sun on the plant, it will definitely take off. Mine gets about 7 hours of sun per day and it is on a soaker hose, but I don't go crazy with the watering, just a few deep soaks when I think about it, and the plants have grown so much, it looks like a jungle on the side of my house. I have cut them back 4-5 times since planting them because I couldn't walk on my stone path anymore...hehe. Your plant does look healthy, so you are doing something right. I bet if you can get it to come back after the winter, it will really take off. Cuttings do very well on these plants. Every one I have tried has rooted in my mini greenhouse, so you should have good luck in the iguana habitat.
I am happy to bring different types of butterflies to the yard, and sulfurs have always been interesting to me. I started with Monarchs on milkweed, moved to buckeyes with snapdragon vines, then GF's with passionflowers, now sulfurs with cassia....I have yet to see a buckeye or GF cat!
This pic is from Sept 4th and it is hard to tell how tall they are, but if you look behind the plant you can see some telephone lines for scale...
Russell
Russell - they're gorgeous. I had high hopes for mine! Ha ha. I think in a nice heavy pot I could move it all around the yard. I don't know. I drag my tropical hibiscus in and out so why not. Maybe it'll like the iguana's room too! Only problem with that is that Rita would probably try to climb it.
What is the orange flower in front of the Cassia?
I also grow passionflower, MW, the Cassia is also my first, parsley for the BST. No takers for the passionflower here. As you know it's been a slow year for butterflies.
I don't know if I will do this next year, particularly with the sulfurs. I say that every year though. Do you raise any butterflies? Pity about the sulfurs. You'll need to figure out a way to outsmart those hornets.
The orange flower is called pride of barbados - definitely one of my favorites. I traded for a pink variety called compton this year, but it hasn't bloomed yet. I have it in a pot and will keep it growing there until the spring when it gets a little bigger.
I haven't "raised" any inside, but I have had many cats over the past couple of years in the yard. I have watched monarchs, black swallowtails and now cloudless sulfurs transform in my yard. Pretty cool! I hear you about outsmarting the wasps...I caught one last spring eating a black swallowtail cat...I know everything has to eat, but it sure made me mad!
Let us know how you do with the cassia over the winter. I will do the same.
Russell
Sulfur Update: I have placed the screen lid from my sulfur container in a place where it receives full sun for almost the entire day. I noticed that exposure to sunlight accelerated or encouraged the metamorphosis/eclosure. Otherwise, these chrysalis would just . . .?
Late this afternoon a sulfur emerged and a few chrysalises started to turn color. My first instinct was to bring the critter in to protect it from the "cold," (supposed to get to 46 deg. overnight) but for what/why? I left it out there.
There are 2 cats left in my container. Taking them outside and placing the container in full sun encouraged them to eat/move. One climbed up on the screen lid and is doing the chrysalis thing. The second is half the size, and I don't know what's to become of it . . .?
There are at least 10 chrysalis left. Can anyone tell me what these critters do overwinter?
Russell - the flowers are lovely - I have heard of it. Is it a butterfly magnet? I took a few more cuttings of the Cassia. I wonder if I will be able to wait for that single flower bud to open before I decide to dig it up? Keep you posted.
The pride of barbados does attract some butterflies, I have seen pipevine swallowtails, monarchs and a couple of different sulfurs nectaring on it, but where it shines is with hummingbirds. They absolutely love it! I have several types of plants on that side of the house, including vitex agnus castus, pride of barbados, cassia alata, 3 different types of lantana, duranta erecta, Sophora tomentosa var. truncata, west texas mistflower, russian sage, pavonia hastata and 3 different types of plumeria. The lantanas bring the most visitors, but the duranta, mistflower and vitex are visited pretty often too. I have tried to get a variety so I bring in several different types of BFs, and I am always looking for new host and nectar plants.
Seems like you are charting a new path for these types of BFs. You might try a couple of different things with them to see what works and publish here for others to see. I am sorry that I can't give you any advice whatsoever about what to do with them over the winter.
Good luck!
Russell
All those plants on the side of your house sound fantastic! Like you, I plant whatever I think will bring the critters in. I have worked for Metrolina Greenhouses as a territory retail rep and observed the pollinators visit the different plants. When you tell someone "and the bees just love it" they decide not to buy the plant (dopes!). I love them all.
So many of the smaller BFs like just grasses or violets or what-not. I understand that the best thing to do is to leave an area unmowed. That's easy here, not much more room for flower beds and what's left are just footpaths thru the yard to the shed in the back or around the beds. My BF has liked the way the grass mowing situation has turned out. :)
I usually research the heck out of something before I get too deeply into it, but as I said - could not find anything in particular on the sulfurs. SheilaW I think said she rears some sulfurs, but you all in TX don't have the same concerns as I do about temperature. It IS mid October, for God's sake! It's just hard to accept.
I have looked at your trade list Russell and think I have to hit you up. Would you mind looking at my have list to see if you would like to swap butterfly/hummingbird magnets? :D
Nope, I haven't gotten to rear sulphurs yet. I have plenty of host plants for them but no takers yet that I have seen. I am not sure if they are one that overwinters in chrysalis or not. Try google for info maybe.
I have looked Shelia, but maybe overwinter I will have some time and try harder. All of the chrysalis in full sun look like that's the trick. The BST are in a container on my back porch. They stopped eclosing when the temperature hit 40s overnight. I have to think these guys would do the same (?) but they would be in full sun naturally and the temps do not seem to be bothering them so much.
I will let you know what I find out, if anything.
They are SO pretty out there - they look so mild mannered and unassuming when they hatch out. You can only see the underside of their wings. The gorgeous orangey-yellow and brown colors on the top of their wings is visible thru the chrysalis right before they eclose. I have seen a number of them flitting about yesterday and today in/around my garden and front yard. I am guessing (?!) that they are my own releases. :)
I will post a series of photographs to show the life cycle.
A.
Look forward to the pictures.
I was netting and tagging Monarchs in the yard today and caught one that was already tagged. I checked the number and it was mine from three days prior! Could be it is one that isn't making the trip to Mexico. :-(
Sheila -- Monarch migration often "stalls" when temps are in the mid to upper 80s (or higher) and winds are coming out of the south. When a cold front comes through (like we are having tonight) it will push them on southward. You won't find that tagged monarch tomorrow; he or she will be winging its way to Mexico.
Dale Clark
Dallas County Lepidopterists' Society
www.dallasbutterflies.com
I doubt it too. Hopefully they all got underway today. We are having some really hard blowing rain right now coming in from the NW.
Catzgalore (Stephanie) raised three Monarchs and brought them to me, and I tagged one yesterday at the RU. Today the other two emerged and I tagged them. Only got a picture of one tagged when I released it, the other went into a tree.
All female by the way Stephanie!
Still have sulfurs eclosing here, and the last caterpillar finally morphed into his chrysalis. I thought I lost it but found it this morning clinging to the underside of a paper towel. That guy has been here for a month if he's been here a day!
I don't suppose they overwinter. The temps are rising some overnight from low 40s so they must be optimistic about coming out. Days are high 60s low 70s today. Pretty!
I am still waiting to see if any cuttings root. There are more than one bud on the main plant not but still no blooms.
2 more sleepy orange sulfurs took flight today. I have seven (7) more chrysalises left of this species.
The Cassia has not yet bloomed, but the bud(s) are getting larger. Our temps will dip below 40 deg this weekend but I will wrap the thing up. I am not ready to dig, and I am still hoping the thing will bloom. I have to take more cuttings of the new growth tips which are not growing that much anymore! I had 2 cuttings and one has collapsed. The second looks pretty good, but we shall see!!!
Keep you posted.
A.
3 more sulfurs eclosed this week. I think there are only 2 left. Tonight we are going to come close to freeze, and I have made a decision.
I am not going to dig up the Cassia. I don't know what I'll find beneath the ground in terms of roots, ant hills, or whatever. I'll start over and earlier in the spring.
Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter. Hate to see it go with that giant flower bud on it. Overnight temps will moderate again tomorrow night, so I'll probably keep it covered as long as I can get away with it.
A.
You might try putting a wire cage around the base and filling it with mulch or leaf litter to give it a bit of insullation against the cold temps this winter. If it doesn't make it, I have seeds that will I can send when they dry. Also if you already have some seeds, try starting them inside in late winter under lights.
Thanks for all the effort to keep us posted and the pictures. You did a great job.
