Weed Control in Iris Beds, 2011

I so do not agree with what you say, sorry.

I have purchased my Ornamec from a local nursery supply. Wholesale only. It came with the full info sheets. There is absolutey nothing to indicate you need any sort of license to use it.

There are many chemicals that require an applicators license. I do not believe this product is one of them, and I would like you to show me that it is.

You stated:
"A licensed nursery by the way is not the same as a chemical applicators license. While I could have a nursery license, if I am appplying chemicals, then I also need the required applicators license to do so. Chemicals consist of pesticide, herbicide etc."

That is only true if the chemicals need an chemical license. You do not need a chemicals license to use many chemicals in your nursery. I do not have a chemical license as I have never had the need to use the chemicals that require same.

I am not getting into a discussion whether it is "proper" to use chemicals. Everyone to their own, there. I am only discussing the use of Ornamec, and I still would like you to tell me in what states you need an chemical license to use Ornamec.

Blossom that is why I have the link it is from the container in its entirity.

Being organic you CAN NOT use and keep your license that I understand but it is not in the best interest of everyone to make them afraid to use chemicals.

I keep a map and what chemical and how much and have never had a problem with inspections or what has been done or Not DONE to the soil.

My 2 cents are you do not have to make it sound like all chemicals are bad. I read every thing on all chemicals fertilizers and anything I put on my beds, as I have animals and there are a ton of birds here.

D

I agree with that 100% Dee. I keep the cat inside, I keep the grandkids away. I even keep my husband away when I'm spraying anything. We have a small pond, and even though it doesn't have fish I never use chemicals, so the frogs, or whatever night creature drinks out of the pond won't get ill. I never spray when honey bees are about.

Thank you for posting the MSDS sheet Dee.

Blosson Buddy, of course, if you are certified organic you would not be able to use any chemicals. But we are not talking about certified organic farms.

I know nothing about Ornamec all I know is I used Hi Yield Grass Killer in both my iris and daylily beds. IT did not harm the plants and it did KILL the grass. There were other weeds that it did not effect in any manner. I would suggest you read the label very well Polly. I don't want you to lose any of your precious babies.

Now with all that said I'm going to try to get some ronstar and something else that D had list for last year. Just got so much going on around here right now it's craZy. George is sick and having heart problems again.

I'll hollar at ya'll again a little later tonight.
Love Ya,
Marian

Oh, believe me Marion, it will be thoroughly tested before I use it on the beds.

Sorry to hear George is ill again. Prayers going out for him.

Same from me to you and yours.

That is why I read the MSDS so carefully

D

Sorry to hear about George, thoughts and prayers with you.

POLLY K, Sorry on the subject, but for those who might be thinking in that direction.. you can too specify parts of your garden farm for organic and certify or license accordingly while at the same time having a portion of acreage not growing organic. Its how you declare your acreage annually and what license or certification goes with that that is if your state makes you declare your acreage and specific crops growing if you profess to sell produce that truly is organic or otherwise produce or a crop of some description. Key words, if you profess to sell.

Again, here Pest and Chem Applicators licenses are not nursery licenses. SORRY.. they are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The guy spraying a city lawn with chems needs a license to apply the chems so dies a farmer. And if you apply certain chems, you the homeowner might need a license to do so too....that is why you need to read the fine print. He if all he does is a sprayer to just get out and spray, that does not need a nursery license. THAT act of spraying however may require an applicators license be you pro or hobby based on the chem you are applying. You as a homeowner however do not need the retail license or if the applicator is a nursery you dont need the nursery license. The nursery license is for SELLERS of produce.. ahem, plant life.. however.. where I come from not all plants require a nursery license to be able to sell them.. Again.. Check with your state..

Like I said, when it comes though to chems it is best if all individuals read the chem labels CAREFULLY. Cover your bases asking the seller if you are buying and if you are the seller, inform your buyers.. Here again, when in doubt, contact the manufacturer for the lable. They should tell you if an applicators license is required, but the lable would verify so then you have it in print. The manufacturer will also tell you if you need to be a wholesaler, retailer or whatever the case and if you have to provide him inturn with certain other paperwork for him to sell to you. OTC chems are not the same as professional chems and if you go to a store carrying both, you best read the label. As a licensed applicator, I would not be going to a Walmart for any chems and especially if I want a KILL.

Certifying you are organic and stating that you are an organic gardener can be two different things. If I were to buy and buy specifically a produce that I wanted to know it was organically grown and it carried proof, I would ask the seller are you a certified grower and do you have the paperwork to back it? If Mabel down the road offers me what she perceives to be organically grown veggies or whatever the case and in this thread, last we looked it was iris... but anyway, back to organic... and I know Mabel well enough to take her word.. yes, those could be two cases of organic grown.. if perhaps Mabel though just dumps horse poo for fertilizer and the horses have been chemically treated for worms and parasites that livestock get, that boots her "organic" idea out the window if I want true CHEM FREE organic grown. She has to know to tell me the truth adn if she does not know.. well, as much as I like Mabel, I have to go elsewhere if I am truly wanting organic certified. Unbeleivable how many gardeners do not realize animal dung is not always organic.

Someone asked if I was licensed.. first off... and not about me.. but I have been in this game long enough to know that some places overlook or dont care to look and people will apply chems what they can buy thinking they are ok which is not always the case. I am sorry, but it is true and also I will not retract what I said on that or any of what I said above.. And there is that if you dont ask, they dont tell. How can they if you dont ask the right person when you dont know. Then you get the people in garden shops who should be selling hamburgers instead and that have no clue. Case in point the part time seasonals as places like Walmart. Im sorry, but not all people are qaulified in some of those nursery department stores So again, another situation READ THE LABEL.
Think of it this way, just becasue you have a license to drive, that dont make you a professional driver. You just got a ticket to get ON the road. How you drive is up to you. You can go a long way down the road before you ever get a ticket.. not that you did or did not deserve one, but if you dont know the law or the rule, and you do get caught, its no ones fault but you and then if you do not understand waht it is you are wanting or buying.. that still ends up to be your fault because you did not go deep enough to get the answer. As for me today.. I am semi-retired. Carry the licenses when I need them. Get my inspections when I need them too.

Back tracking a step here.. and on organic... I see idiots all the time dumping manure in places that are regulated that it should not be done and so yano, and with that said.. organic gardening also has its pitfalls. If you are licensed and you have to take a test, that kind of license is one thing. If you are licensed becasue all you do is PAY for a license, that is entirely another. A nursery license is a pay for it declaration.. , a pest applicators is take a test, pay the fee to get it , pass the test and then if you met the qualifications. you get the license. But as said, it might vary in your state. here that is how it is. And your retailers license, just because you got one, all that means is you collect taxes.. it has nothing to do with what kind of stuff you sell other than it is retail and gives you the option to buy goods at wholesale to sell to make a profit.. And what you sell may require additional permits or licenses.

Landscapers whoodogs.. now thats a permit, license pile of paperwork nightmare jus like farming.

People should have some fear of using chemicals to use them properly, but the problem is, not all people care and a lot of people are unaware.

People have a tendency to hear what they want to hear and read only so far. Like I said read the FINE PRINT

Here, a retailer is required to have a nursery license just to sell plants.. that goes for a Walmart to an individual to a farm. Well, that was last we checked adn the way things change in the government control of things.. you have to keep checking and even teh bureacrats half the time go, oh, thats not my department..

Pest and Chems licenses are for those who apply them. Like I said, read the label of the product you buy. FINE PRINT. You do not need this license to have a nursery license. And for that mattter all a nursery license is in one state is a paper declaring your acreage and that you grow a specific plant. In another state, it could be different.
If you dont use chems or pests, you do not need a license to apply them. (DUH!)
That license is for those applying them.. There are possible exemptions.. a person in a unit that has an applicators license may have someone working under them and under their suppervision spray, but that person spraying cannot just go and spray everywhere, there are the restrictions that apply to that . You need to look into it more if you are going to be doing this.

No wonder so many people have cancer and such is because they fail to engage the brain before application. And I am not saying that to be unkind. I know one too many cancer patients that perhaps applying such chemicals that require an applicators license and had they read the labels may have not contracted such, but as with farming, you do it long enough, even with a license there can arrise issues and this too is another reason why to read those labels and see if you should be licensed. The public complained, safety issues were brought and that is why there are applicators licenses. Mainly because a lot of people did not read nor understand fully the label before the license came to be.. now they got the whole scene such a mess, even more people are confused!

The topic here was titled WEED CONTROL IN IRIS BEDS... and the subject came of Ornamec....

Ornemec by the way is a grass killer. Years back when we did use it for grass control here, and because our garden is so large, and at the time of the application an applicators license was required. We were told that by the manufacturer from whom we bought, he inturn showed us the papers backing up why. And since we bought wholesale, we had to provide a retailers tax license certificate and a copy of our applicators license. So.. with that now said.. any questions? Oh and yes, nursery license papers too for selling.

Kelly, my husband has been a farmer all his life....neither he nor I are are spring chickens...we farmed 125 acres at the old farm did the row crop thing and all the paperwork that the government threw at us. Thank God for retirement. But experience, nor age neither makes us exempt to certain licenses if we continue to pursue certain avenues be we hobbist gardeners or pros.

The reason I am ridding our garden of iris, especially the bearededs is that we flood
(ergo a chemical applicators nightmare forcing us to be organic due to the protection of the ground water.. again a thing to read labels for...)

Here and beardeds do not grow well for just that vary reason.. its too wet. And I for one am tired of fighting with the grass amongst them. Ornemec did not work well for us in our garden for many reasons...

If I was getting rid of them as a professional, they would be gauranteed to grow and come with a replacement for the money spent on them.. these are not from the nursery.. so they come with no guarantee. However.. and for those others that have asked about the rhizomes I am offering here on the forum, the offers out have been fufilled.. again they will be mailed as soon as we can dig and individuals will be posted as to their timeof mailing. Anyone wanting out.. dmail me so I dont do labor I dont have to do.

And I apologize again if I got redundant. Had several asking different questions and was trying to hit on all. So Kelly, all comments were not in your direction!

Ya'll have a great nite!

Oh and PS - some chems require you wear certain clothing for protection while applying.. but I guess most of you all know that already as you do don your gloves and goggles and over layer for spraying to protect your under clothes... And then there is the laundering and handling of the clothes .. but yall know that too so forget I even mentioned that.

Or love that pest test question about drift.. what is it, if you drive backwards into a wind, your rate of application is what? higher or lower or ? But well, thats just state asking...
to see if anyone is really paying attention..

Enjoy the iris guys! I think we are done with chems. ;>)

I know there was a discussion on here last year about weed killers, but I cannot remember what the opinion was on PREEN???
deb

Preen does not take care of mature grass.

Isn't Preen a pre-emergent which stops seeds from germinating but doesn't hurt mature weeds of any kind?

Right on Paul.
For growing grass, Poast works real well. I tried it last summer in my flowers. Doesn't hurt the flowers. We've been using it in our veggie garden for years. Only thing you can't put it on is corn or red beets. Corn is a grass, but don't know why the beets, unless they store the chemical in the beet root.

Also don't know what Poast is called at a garden center as I buy mine from a farm supplier 2½ gallons at a time. Here's one you can buy online.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Poast&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGGL_en___US359&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=452594315815741173&sa=X&ei=VKV6TeCdGYPmrAGLgfXOBQ&ved=0CC4Q8wIwAg#

Bernie

Grass Be Gone is a similar product that I've had good success with in getting rid of grass in peonies, summer phlox, and iris.

The COOP in my area sells the "Hi-Yield" brand. It is labeled as a grass killer. I've been using it rather than the "Poast" brand for 5-6 years now.

Am I right in thinking any of the "grass killer" products can't be used over daylilies?

Anyone know if the "Fire Weeder" works? I was thinking of using it around the beds and in pathways instead of chemicals. Has anyone ever used it? Seems like it is a good alternative to Round-up. Cheaper too.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Flame_Weeding.html

As far as I know any of the grass killer products can be used on daylily beds. Daylilies are not in the Poa family.

Daylilies are in the grass family. Brush No More is good for daylilies.. Ornemec was supposed to be good for grass. It was iffy here. Both can be used over the top.

In our garden grass is a severe battle....and so is water so...using any chems is an issue.

Ornemec was not succesful here. But that is because of the kinds of grass here. We are fighting brome, timouthy, turkesy foot, you name it if its a grass its probably here...we are full of all your basic deep rooted and well established grasses. If the dayliles are thick they will choke the grass, but where we have clumps...we have been very careful with using round up.

Preen was a waste of money here.

I won't go near my flower gardens with Round Up. I used Poast on my Daylilies & had no problem.
I just researched the internet for a label on what you can use Poast on. I found this.
http://www.montereylawngarden.com/pdf/grassgetter_supl_02.pdf
It has a complete list of plants that can be sprayed with Poast.
Also shows a list of ones you do not want to spray with Poast.

This will make you feel better than relying on someone's ideas.

Bernie

Thanks everyone!

I wage a war on Bermuda grass every year, and this year I am determined to win! If I don't, my hubby has threatened to rototill all my beds and turn them into lawn.

LOL, I just remind him that he has to go to sleep SOMETIME!

Daylilies:

Kingdom: Plantae
(unranked): Angiosperms
(unranked): Monocots
Order: Asparagales
Family: Hemerocallidaceae



Grasses:

Kingdom: Plantae
(unranked): Angiosperms
(unranked): Monocots
(unranked): Commelinids
Order: Poales
Family: Poaceae

This message was edited Mar 13, 2011 5:43 PM

Daylilies are absolutely not in the same family as grasses.

This message was edited Mar 13, 2011 5:44 PM

scientifically I stand corrected, but sorry according to my daylily expert she said they were treatable as grasses...She ought to know, she is a huge grower and acres of garden is imacculate. However does not have either the soil or grass situation we have

Hemerocallis a magnificent lot.

And yes you need to be exttremely careful with Round up. We cover the clumps.

It is a nasty chem.

All grasses are not in the said rank especiallay since some are rhizomes, legumes etc if you really want to nit pick.

All hems are not the same either. But thanks fo rthe rank.

Would you please ask your source to come over here and say why they cannot use over the top grass elimination products on hemerocallis, or give us their name so we can contact them. I see absolutely nothing that would indicate this. I do not believe this is the case.

No grass is a legume! Clovers, Alfalfa, Soybeans, Garden Peas & beans are legumes.

I killed Quackgrass in my flower beds last year with Poast. We don't have Bermuda grass here, so I can't comment on it.

I have used "Hi-Yield Grass Killer" over the top on daylilies for several years with no harmful effect.

It also works on Bermuda grass.

Dennis, I had seen your post earlier in the thread and have been looking for the Hi-Yield grass killer. Haven't been able to find it.
I found Hi-yield weed killer though. I picked some of that up for my yard. I'll be passing by a farm supply store that is about 10 times larger than our local one next week... I'm sure they'll have it.

you said..."Would you please ask your source to come over here and say why they cannot use over the top grass elimination products on hemerocallis, or give us their name so we can contact them. I see absolutely nothing that would indicate this. I do not believe this is the case. "

I said - "Daylilies are in the grass family. Brush No More is good for daylilies.. Ornemec was supposed to be good for grass. It was iffy here. Both can be used over the top."

I never said Ornamec or Brush No More could not be used over the top.. I said they could. They do not harm the daylilies...sometimes though you can get a little burn, but they will bounce back. BTW - Brush No more is a broad leaf killer, Ornamec is a grass killer.

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Let me clarify back too on the dayliles and what was meant that they are like grasses
Hybrid dayliles are not the same root system as the species.. dig up a "ditch" lily and you will find those "daylilies" have long tap roots in comparison to this root of a hybrid in my photo below and that is why it was said they are like grasses. ditch lilies as some people also call these daylilies do not clump and the spread by long running tap roots. Ornamec will go on either of those dayliles and not harm them..

The reason I personally have not had great sucess with Ornamec is due to the fact my garden floods.. therefor making using that chemical or much of any chemical a serious problem. Since applicationis done best at certain times of the year... (spring), I am always at odds with battling water.

No chemical is good then in my situation when the proverbial tide comes in. The fact too that the gardenis in an old hay field does not help when the grass keeps coming into the gardens and it is a constant battle. Round up does work, but we have to cover teh dayliles and be ultra careful not to hit the daylilies.

We have resorted for years in hand pulling and spacing the clumps so we canmow around them. Its far easier.

Here is when it is in bloom and not under water....

You said "according to my daylily expert she said they were treatable as grasses". You said "Daylilies are in the grass family". We were talking about treating grass with over the top grass killers.

I would like your source to come over and clarify that. Why daylilies are treatable as grasses. Or just give us their name, so we can contact them. Most large growers of any plant are receptive to questions such as this one.

I know you have said you flood. That is a unique situation, which most of us don't have, and is not the question at hand.

If over the top grass killers do harm to daylilies we need to have that information substantiated, but if they do not, we do not need to be spreading that rumor.

OK, more information for those that are confused.
Ornamec is an entirely different product than Poast. Ornamec travels into the roots & kills that way. So the application time is way different.
Poast kills the actual leaves of the grass. You can see what you miss, it will stay green.
Ornamec needs to be applied in spring, whereas Poast can be applied whenever you like. The smaller the grass, the better job it does, but it will get any size growing grass.
Poast takes about a week until you start seeing browning foliage, but growth is stopped shortly after you spray.

Thanks for the info. Grass Getter is also a trade name for Poast.

Polly, I tried to explain it, obviously its not getting through,. My source does not use the internet. Sorry if you are confused.

pollyk, FWIW, the price on your website post for Ornamec (Feb. 26) is much higher than Wildseed Farms at http://shop.wildseedfarms.com/Ornamec-170-Grass-Herbicide/productinfo/3295/ -- didn't read all info on both sites, but it appears to be the same product.

Thanks, it does appear to be the same product. I'd have to be sure the concentration is the same, there's so many different formulations of chemicals.

Thank you for posting that, I already bought mine, but it will help someone else.

Here is the bottom line from someone who grows both irises and daylilies. I have beds that are irises only, I have beds that are daylilies only, then I have beds that have both and tons of other plants. I have used the Hi-Yield Grass Killer and it's never harmed any of my plants. I think it has a list of over 500 plants it's safe to use it on. Be sure and read which plants you can use it one and which ones you can't. This will kill off the grass but it does nothing to the weeds so your still going to need to use something else for them. At least the grass doesn't take over the entire gardening area.

Marian

Marian, what about peony's? I would hate to lose any of mine. Some have been in the family for yrs., possibly 80 yrs. old since my husbands Aunt purchased them. I found a gentleman who lives a few miles from me and he is going to help me put a name to the old peony's. Whopppeeee!!

Maxine

I use Preen and it works well for me. I mulch also, and when I water I only water the plant, I dont use sprayers that wet the whole bed. I use a handheld want and water only the clumps.
I pull weeds of course and sometimes use Roundup. Preen will not kill weeds you see already growing, only keeps new ones from sprouting.
You can apply Roundup using a small spray bottle or a paintbrush. I try to plant my plants close together to help keep the weeds choked out also.

I have a large container of Preen left over from last yr. I am hoping it will still be good. If it would stop raining, I have one area that I need to get it applied.
Teresa