feeding the soil first!

Kelly,
Are those stacked cinder blocks toward the left end, with the tall stuff growing out? What is that, BTW?

You have a really neat operation. See. You've already given me an idea for an area that I could probably convert to another raised bed, probably using stacked concrete cinder blocks as a border, since it would be along the DH's brand new cedar fence. I'm thinking I could do approximately a 3x8' bed, accessing it from the front and 2 sides, and bordered by the fence...hmmmmm...

And that lovely shade tower! Waaaaaaaaaay cool...

Hey, you gave me an idea to grow stuff out the top of the fence - lol. I think the green you see that looks like it's growing out the top of the wall is a neighbor's tree. Just the angle of the pic I think!

In the first pic, the block wall in the background has a space between the bottom of the wall and the concrete patio that is maybe 6-8" wide. Originally there was a wooden fence there and then my DH and my FIL built the block wall many years ago but left that space. So, it became gardening space for me. I have pics somewhere of the plants in full bloom there - fascinating. It is a small space that runs the length of the block wall. I normally fall sow annuals or flower mixes there, sometimes sunflowers. It's very pretty when in bloom. I haven't decided if I want to put perennials there as the wall has a full on western exposure. OK in the winter, but in our summers it would fry most anything within a few feet of that wall. Maybe I can find a vine that will take that sun, but I like planting different seeds there every year.

I wish I could use the concrete block here like you are talking about. It just gets too hot here in the desert. I have more pics of the shade structure at home too. I also have some on another thread here somewhere...

here . . . http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/981570/

Kelly

Kelly, I agree with you, I have so many seeds thanks to generous people from Daves and tomatoville, I have more tomato heirloom seeds now than I can plant in a lifetime.

Also, I went to walmart about a month ago and was able to purchase a package of seeds from walmart for 10 cents, they were trying to get rid of all their 2009 seeds and they had just a few packages of flower and a few cantaloupe seeds. I will in the future look for seed sales as well.

Another thing I am doing now is to place my seeds in wet paper towels and let them sprout before I plant them in containers this way I don't use as many seeds and I can plant only the ones that sprout. I tend to keep all my seeds in the refrigerator since I've heard that this way they can last a long time.

I love the picutes of your raise beds they are so neat looking plus I am sure your kids are enjoying helping you in the garden.



This thursday or friday I am going to put my 4 year old to work to help mommy plant some lettuce seeds and swiss chard.

PS:

Kelly,
I see you do a square foot gardening configuration with the 2x12 section. There's a piece on the Instructables.com website that has a raised bed on a concrete surface. The builders also made a series of square foot boxes, that would stack on top of the wooden frame to extend the height on a square foot section.

I could see how utilizing a series of stacked SFBs (square foot boxes) would allow for angling a raised bed into just about any configuration needed. And, they can be easily constructed. From your pic, I see you accommodated a taller section in the same way.

I could build an initial raised bed, then add height with SFBs. Stabilize them by drilling holes and anchoring them to vertical 2xs. Even I can do that, with my brand new power tool set!

See what sharing starts? My DH will probably be calling asking you why you showed me that pic!

I thought I might share this, I found it very interesting.

http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2008/01/06/year-long-grs-project-how-much-does-a-garden-really-save/

Kelley, et al,
Go look at this urban square foot garden!

http://www.instructables.com/id/Urban-Homestead-Garden-squarefoot-gardening-abrid/

carminator - My kids love to help me out in the garden - lol. Especially if I give them a square and let them plant and tend their own crop. Radishes are easy as they sprout and come to maturity quickly, plus they like to eat carrots out of the garden, so we interplant them. By the time the radishes are pulled, the carrots have room to grow. It's fun for them! I've also found seeds really cheap at the 99 Cent Only stores we have around here, and they germinate very well and are usually 10 packets for 0.99 cents!! I've gotten flowers and green onions and chives and melon seeds I can think of off the top of my head...

Linda - all my beds are done in the square foot method. They are all open boxes with wood lathe laid out on the top to divide the bed into sq ft sections. It's cheap and easy to replace if one gets broken. Some people don't mark out their squares, but I loke the visual effect it gives, plus it helps me keep my crops in their intended place. Well, except for the zucchini and sweet potatoes that tried to take over the entire garden. On one end of the 4' x 10' bed I have the last four squares boxed off. That will be for potatoes come January. I think I have pics of those at home as well. The SFG book talks about building the riser boxes - very simple to do.

Just don't give your DH my phone number - lol. See what we started here...

Oh - I've never tried the paper towel sprouting method but hear good things about it. With the square foot method, you plant with final spacing in mind so no thinning (aka wasting perfectly good seeds - lol). I poke holes with my finger at the proper spacing, pop a seed in (or 2 if I'm using older seed) and voila! Now if both seeds come up (and they usually do!) then I need to pinch one off, but I love this method. I'm from the old school of row gardening and never knew there was another way until I had to try and maximize the space I had in an urban setting!

Thanks for all the links you guys! This is great!

Hey Kelly,
I'm also growing in 5 gallon homemade eBuckets. As I've calculated, they roughly equal one square foot each, and I push them together to approximate a square foot garden, above ground.

I need to get a SFG planting guide to show me how to PLACE more than one plant in my eBuckets.

This IS great thread! Thanks to you, too!

If you go to the website www.squarefootgardening.com or can find the book at the library it has a wealth of information! I got mine really cheap on Amazon. The website has links where you can look at pics of people's gardens and the materials they used to construct them. It's pretty cool!

Edited to say . . .: the book gives spacing layouts of how many per square for most common crops, or you can determine by the final spacing (or thin to) for seedlings. Carrots for example are thin to 3" so you can put 16 in a sq ft. You can look and approximate the spacing pretty good after you do it a few times...

This message was edited Oct 6, 2009 2:05 PM

locakely, I bough the square foot gardening and gave it to my dad a couple of years ago after I read it of course LOL. It was very good and had tons of useful info, I do have a question regarding this book though. If I remember correctly the book says you can plant 1 tomato plant per sq foot, but wouln't this be fairly close for tomato plants? Or is this book talking about determinate tomato plants?

I am devating whether or not to buy the book for myself to have it, but I am also trying to save some $ to make a better growing light system for my seedlings, the one I have is very small and I am only able to place a small amount of seedlings under it. Also he talks about purchasing compost, potting mix, peat moss etc and I am looking for cheaper alternatives such as making my own compost, free manure etc...

I've already divided my raise bed into squares for planting and was able to find a chart online that tells you how much per square you can grow so is it still worth it to purchase the book?

carminator - sounds like you have the basics down. While Mel's growing mix recommendation is awesome - we used it in one of the 4' x 4' beds - it can get expensive depending on the availability of the materials in your area. I use my own compost. As long as your beds have light textured soil so they drain well you will be fine. Some of my beds are the peat/vermiculite/compost mix and some are compost (2/3) mixed with my crappy native soil (1/3). All seem to work well. I just wouldn't use straight native or garden soil - it will be too heavy. You can use compost, manure, whatever organic material you have available.

I don't think you need to buy the book. Check the website and maybe you can find it at the library to check out.

Carminator1,
Could you please post a link to the website with the square foot gardening layout? Thx.

Linda

Linda, I am sending you the link, it is not a layout but a way of knowing how many vegetables to plant per square foot.

http://www.mysquarefootgarden.net/plant-spacing/

Hope this helps.

carminator - I forgot to reply to your tomato question . . .

One per sq ft is tight for indeterminate tomatoes but it can be done as long as you stake or cage them. You can also cut suckers to keep the plant more compact. You'll get more but smaller tomatoes this way, depending on the variety you are growing.

That link is good. In my experience those are good estimates for #/square foot. I learned by trial and error and also by paying attention to the final spacing for seedlings. Especially with stuff like leaf lettuce - you can plant tighter if you keep the outer leaves trimmed - eat lots of salad!

C,
Good chart. Now I'm gonna look for a plant spacing chart for 5 gallon buckets!

Gymgirl, one thing I've been useing lately is rubbermaid tubs, they are a little smaller than the famous earth boxes but I follow the same planting guide as the earthbox. You might want to check their website. earthbox.com

Thank you localkelly for your answer about the tomatoes, I think next year when I am ready to plant matters I am going to plant 8 total in my 4x8 square foot just in case, I also want to use concrete reinforce wire cages to support them so I know I need space for them.

Those cages will do you well and they last forever - so much better than those "cages" you can buy everywhere. I use those cages for peppers and that's about it. I'll use for 'maters in a pinch, but they really can't handle an indeterminate tomato without bending or worse, falling over - been there, done that - lol.

I think 8 in the 4' x 8' bed should work fine. You should have plenty of room and you'll be able to tell if you can squeeze more in next time.

Locakelly, Yes that's what I thought, plus I was thinking of planting some onions on the edges of the raise beds and some carrots, and maybe place some herbs like basil, parsley etc...

Today is the day! I am going to plant all my seeds in my raise bed, I have some letttuce seeds and some beets and swiss chard, I'll have my 4 year old help me.

I also have some broccoli in little containers but I've heard that you are supposed to harden these before planting in the raise beds,so I'll place them outside for a couple of hours and then tomorrow as well and hopefully in 3 days or so they'll be o.k to plant outside.

I will do succession planting with the lettuce, and radishes, butl will plant all the beets and swiss chard, we will see how this goes.

I am soooooooooo encouraged to know that someone else, somewhere in a relative Zone 9a is just now planting seeds, too!

Linda - I just finished planting yesterday - lol. Normally I would have planted most things maybe mid-September, but the temps have been up over 100° until this past week... So, you are right on track if your temps have been anything like ours. Of course the low desert in which I live is it's own little quirky place to plant, but we're probably similar enough that the planting chart I use might work for you or at least give you some guidelines. . .

http://www.yourguidetogreen.com/TheUrbanFarm/wp-content/uploads/Planting_Calendar.pdf

c - I think your plan for the tomatoes should be great! You can plants stuff around them no problem. That will also help to keep your soil cooler and help cut down on weeds! Plant lots of beets and chard! You'll have lots to eat, lots to share and plenty left over to pickle or can (beets) and freeze (the greens). Does it snow in Mobile? Just how cold do you all get in the winter?

KELLY!

Your's is the first chart I can actually make sense of! It is absolutely WONDERFUL! The comments column is awesome!!!!

THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Linda

Linda, Kelly:

Yes temps over here in Mobile have been wacky as well, we are still pretty hot and humid, right now we are in the high 80's. and a couple of days ago we had a little cooler weather, probably the reason why I woke up with a pretty nasty cold this morning, all this variations in weather will do that to you.

Acording to my planting wheel I can sow lettuce and kale until almost the end of November, beets until the middle of October.

Broccoli I was suppose to have started in the begining of July and transplanted in the begining of September but I am taking twiggybuds advice and started a little later, hopefully I'll be able to enjoy a few pieces of broccoli before they bolt in march time frame.

Locakelly as far as I know we don't have any snow here in mobile but it will get cold and we will probably have a couple of days here and there where we have frost, but the weather is been so crazy lately that who knows maybe we'll have a mild winter. Once thing is for sure we've been getting tons of rain here these last couple of months, sometimes daily so my plants are all overwatered.

You're very welcome Linda! I find that to be a great guideline that takes into consideration the unique hot dry conditions of the low desert. It may generally apply to Houston as well! Glad it helps!

c - twiggybuds gives good advice! You can always plant, even if it's late, and see what happens. That's the fun of gardening - no hard and fast rules! Broccoli is unaffected by a light frost - it actually improves the flavor or so they say. Never had that experience here with no frost, but I know they grow broccoli all over northern Maine where I'm originally from and often times they harvest after frost (comes pretty early there). You can pretty much grow lettuce anytime except when it's hot out. You can always protect from a light frost with cold frames over your beds or simply sheets, blankets, towels - whatever you have to throw over the plants - lol.

Don't have the overwatered problem here too much - lol. No significant rain for months at a time is the status quo here. My raised beds drain well, so not much danger of me overwatering there either. Good thing cuz I like to water - lol.

How exciting to be moving into full gardening gear! I miss the 4 seasons that other places I've lived actually get to experience, but the desert has it's own unique characteristics that sorta grow on you after a while...

I repeat -- THIS IS A GREAT THREAD!

Kel,
I'm gonna buy some 10' lengths of 1/4" PVC pipe to bend over my two expanded raised beds for any chilly nights -- which we rarely have in succession in Houston -- only about 1-2 nights in a row of less than 30 degrees. I'll anchor them into 1/2 PVC sections pounded into the ground, and cover them with 4-6 mil plastic or lightweight blankets for protection. I can also use these portable hoop houses as cold frames to start seedlings for the spring! How 'bout that?

Linda

"High Hopes, High Hopes, it's off to work we gopes!"
(Lines sung by a beginning gardener with renewed enthusiasm, after meeting even more encouraging friends in DG. Not to be confused with lines of a famous tune whistled by tiny little men in tight green tights...)

ROTFLOL - tiny little men in tight green tights - brings back memories...

Your portable hoop houses sound great. My plan is to do something similar as well. Just in case we have some near freezing night - rare but it does happen...

Isn't Dave's great? Never a question someone can't answer and you never have to look far to get some encouragement when you're feeling not so encouraged . . .

Ok. I just called my local seedling supplier and I can get replacement cabbages, califlower and broccoli plants after work today! Also white sweet, and yellow, onion bulbs, which they say I can plant now (although all my Houston-area plant schedules say to plant in January). But hey, I can

It's back to mid-summer temps here and steamy too. It's hard to focus on the cold weather crops when it seems so far away. I've got a bunch of stuff started but the weather might stay crazy and make everything bolt.

I'm getting excited about ordering from this site because it might be just what we need that live in hot climates.

http://www.evergreenseeds.com/vegetableseeds.html

They have lots of stuff that they say will take a lot of heat since it is commonly grown in SE Asia and Taiwan. I haven't checked summer temps in that region but they actually claim some of these varieties of cole crops grow all summer. It sure would be nice to have a very extended season.

I had my first Canton Pak Choi night before last in my version of Moo Goo Gai Pan. It was wonderful and I started more seeds yesterday. I got those seeds from Baker Creek and it sure does take the heat and is very fast. I also have some from Heirloom seeds and can't possibly use them all. If any of you want to try some, dmail me.

twiggybuds, that's great website, I am a big fan of oriental veggies.

By the way I have a question, I planted some oriental stir fry about a month ago in one of my rubbermaid containers, I think it was bout begining of September, and well it is doing horrible, the leaves are turning yellowish and some even have white spots on them, I am not sure whether this is weather related or not, or maybe I just planted them too early.
Also the leaves have not grown much they are still pretty small and so I am thinking of pulling the whole thing out and plant somethng else instead.

Linda, I think the hoop houses is the way to go, it will be kind of having your own mini green house in a sense. I am thinking of doing the same if the weather ever changes.

I also love Dave's it is great and have found many great people too.

Tell me all about pak choi! I LOVE Chinese food, and wish I could cook it...

Yes, how do you cook it?

Hey Dorothy! That's a great site!

Now I want your recipe for Moo Goo Gai Pan since I planted some of the Canton Pak Choi seeds you sent me with the Calabrese Broccoli seeds (planted those too)! I love Oriental veggies to and love to cook with them - mostly stir frys and eggrolls...

c - you all had a lot of rain, right? The yellowing could be they are overwatered due to the rain. Check the soil - stick your finger in to about 2" and make sure it feels dry before you water. Not sure about the white spots - may be some kind of mold or something due to the dampness? I live in such a dry climate I really don't have too much experience with those things that happen when there is too much moisture - lol... If it's just too wet, they may be salvageable, but I think you have plenty of time to start over too. You may have planted them a bit early as they are cool weather crops . . .

I'll stop blabbing now...

If it's any consolation as we wait for cooler weather, the cabbage in this picture grew for an entire year. It's one'a those 50 lb. cabbages the Bonnie Company gives to the 3rd grade school kids for the annual contest (largest one grown in each state wins a $1,000).

My neighbor brought me 3 leftovers and, being an UberNewbie, I planted them in the middle of Spring, 2008. And they did absolutely nothing except keel over and look pitiful. But, leave it to the heart of an eternal optimist (as long as it shows ANY sign of life, it wants to live, and should be given a chance!). So, I forgot about 'em until early Fall 2008 when I was repotting some stuff. The three had only grown leggy with little resemblance to what they would become. Mercy rushed in, and Grace grabbed some dirt and repotted all three. One went into a 5-gallon eBucket. The other two went into a 24" planter (I DID say UberNewbie, didn't I?....)

Well, they started perking up. By the time the winter hit those scrawny little seedlings that had limped through a scorching summer, they actually looked.... happy? ... contented? ... at peace with the world and the bugs, too? (This is the honest truth -- best as I can tell, I would guess-timate that the cabbage in the eBucket had maybe ONE bug and it didn't even eat a hole through. The 24" planter is another story, cause the bugs attacked one cabbage and totally IGNORED the other one. Before it was over, one cabbage looked like a lace doily!)

Well, here's what an ugly ducking can turn into... and the only reason it got picked off the top of the eBucket when it did (in February 2009) is because I had just read a DG post that said if a cabbage splits, pick it as soon as possible. My eBucket cabbage split the next day! Otherwise, it'd probably STILL be growing (I distinctly remember saying, "UberNewbie!")

Linda





This message was edited Oct 8, 2009 4:35 PM

. . . from an ugly duckling to a swan . . .

Nice cabbage!

Here's a better representation of how big it truly...burp!...was. Uh, my bad...

one more...there was not one hole in this cabbage...

The more I look at that split, the more it looks like a set of hungy lips about to say, 'FEEEEEED ME, BABY!"



This message was edited Oct 8, 2009 4:34 PM

Yow -za! That's one big cabbage! How'd it taste?

http://www.evergreenseeds.com/dwarfchoysum.html

What I've got looks just like this and the description sounds like it too. It's the Canton Pak Choi from Baker's Creek. I know ya'll have eaten it everytime you get Chinese. It's that crunchy white stemmed veg they stir-fry with. I think 1 plant for each adult per meal. The names of this kind of thing confuses me because I really don't know the difference between Pak Choi, Bok Choi, and Choy Sum. This is my first time trying it because I love Chinese food too and thought it would be good to start experimenting.

The seeds look just like broccoli and cabbage and I started them the same way, then transplanted. I think I can successively plant this until mid-March. I didn't really know how big they'd get so I used several different sized containers. The ones I ate the other night were grown 3 to a 10" hanging basket. They did fine in that and 2 were larger and I think as big as they get since they'd slacked growing. The other one is still growing some. I wish I'd had more plants to go in as I harvest. I also put 4 into 3 gallon pots and 5 into my 7 gallon pots. I'd say a 5 gallon bucket would do 4 or 5 plants but they don't need anything nearly that deep.

They have shallow roots, love rich, loose soil and are done in about 45 days. They seemed to love all that rain I've been getting. They also are plagued with caterpillars but so are all their kin folks... cabbage, cauliflower and broccoli. I'm having a time fighting many different kinds with BT and the rain washes it off.

Carminator I think your problem is probably weather. Many of these things need cooler weather than we have had. That's why I'm excited about that seed source linked above in that they have varieties actually developed for our climate. If it isn't the heat, maybe they need more fertilizer. The only thing that works without fert for me is pure homemade compost.

Girl,
I had never tasted a truly home-grown cabbage before. It was SWEET! My 93-year-old Aunt Beatrix couldn't get over how good it tasted.

Twiggybuds,
Whatever would we do without you? You know so MUCH, ABOUT so much! I just love to hear you talk garden! Are you a secret Master Gardener? ^_^

This message was edited Oct 8, 2009 4:43 PM

Good to know, Linda, since I planted me some cabbage this season. Never was big on cabbage, but I figured if I can grow it it has to tast better than that store bought stuff. I'll find a way to eat it!!

Yup - twiggybuds is one of the reasong I like the veggie forum so much! There are some really nice knowledgable people here who love to help out, and she is one of them!