feeding the soil first!

Honeybee, after reading the article for the 3rd time I just saw that this article talks about the Berliner strain, there are about 50 different strains of BT in the market, the most widely used has Bacillus Thurengiensis, Kurstaki as active ingredients, this one does kill the cutworms and many other worms that might attack the plants. Just wanted to mention it just in case there was a confution with my previous e-mail.

Carmin put some of those calabrese seeds in water right now and add a tsp of hydrogen peroxide. They'll be sprouting tomorrow and you can plant them exactly where you want them. Gently cover them 1/4",.water in and they'll be up Monday. That's what I've been doing with all my cole crops. Mix up some more of the peroxide water to use for watering and don't let them dry out. I use 1/4 Cup to a 1 gallon jug. This practically eliminates problems of over watering, kills any disease in your potting soil and keeps them healthy until they're good sized.

I planted calabrese as late as November last year and was eating off it starting in mid-Jan. It just keeps sprouting and will start bolting in February if we get several warm days in a row. It just won't do past mid March because it likes cold weather. I use that peroxide trick for all my seeds and add weak miracle grow after they get first leaves. It pushes them along quickly. I guess you could use fish emulsion or whatever more organic stuff you like so long as it provides adequate nutrients. We can put out cole crops almost all winter and the frost won't kill them. They sometimes will sit there a bit until it warms up just a bit or the daylight gets a bit longer. The trick is to keep setting plants and mostly they all work. I'm fixing to start onions and lettuce.

That is wonderful twiggybuds you are full with knowledge, I am going to take your advice and do exactly what you said. By the way could I plant it in Jiffy pots once they sprout and then plant them in the ground once the plant has some true leaves. Since I am doing a cover crop in my raise beds I have to plant in containers just for now, and all my containers are full right now. I just actually planted some beets yesterday and also some radishes in another.

I also started some onions yesterday, I place a bunch of seeds in a small yogurt container so once they emerge and get big ebough I'll transplant the seedlings to my raise beds, I am sure by then the beds will be ready to plant.

twiggybuds, do you use the same peroxide system for other seeds such as tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, beans, peas etc... or just for cole crops?, I thought I might ask just in case.

Yes I use it for anything that I'm starting in the house or initially in the small pots. It's really not so important this time of the year but lots of folks, including me, have had the dreaded damping off, especially in the winter. I don't worry about trying to use sterile mix for starting seeds with the peroxide. It just seems to me that as a general rule, the faster the germination the better and the faster seedlings can get a decent stem and several leaves, the less chance of problems.

Soaking the seeds always shortens the germination time even if you just use plain water. It's not really practical to pre-soak small seeds or even something like the calabrese if you're planting a lot at one time. It works just as well if you sow the seeds and set the pot in something deep enough to thoroughly soak all the mix. I do that with the peroxide water too and then just set them under a tree to germinate. If they get dappled sun, it eliminates any need to harden them off. It works even if you set them in the full sun but you can't let them dry out. I like to bottom water because it doesn't disturb the seeds like top watering can, at least the first time.

After your calabrese have soaked overnight, you'll see the seed coats splitting open and some of them will have their little white root sticking out. Make your holes for the seeds, dump them into your palm and use a butter knife to lift each one. Tap the knife and it will fall off approximately where you want it. Don't worry about which way the root is pointing because it's programmed to turn down once you cover it. If any of your kids are old enough, this is a great learning experience for them.

You can hold the plants until you're ready for them. They might get a bit leggy but then you can just plant them deeper. They don't seem to mind that at all.

Thanks twiggybuds, I'll check the seeds tomorrow and see if their seeds coats are open or not, these seeds were collected in 2007 so it might take a little longer for germination to occur, but we will see.

I tend to use the seedless mix to start my seeds but it tends to be expensive, I've also heard other people that use coconut coir, perlite and vermiculite to start your seeds, and garden girl actually mixes a couple of rabbit pellets to the mix as extra nutrients, I have not tried this yet but might in the future.

Boy I can't wait to start planting in my raise beds but I am waiting for the legume to get a little bit bigger so I can digg it to the soil, they say to wait until just before the leggumes flower to dig them to the soil.

I am also waiting on my DH to be done with the shed so he can build me another raise bed so I can have more space to grow veggies.

Thanks for all your help.

I used to use Peroxide when I raised African Violets, but I didn't know it was good for veggies, too. Here's a link: "Ways to use Hydrogen Peroxide in the Garden"

http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/peroxide-garden.html

HoneyBee, I tried the peroxide mixed with water but unfortunately my seeds did not sprout, I am not sure if I did anything wrong but followed your instructions to the T.

A couple of days ago I decided to take a couple of the seeds and place them in damp paper towels, I mainly wanted to make sure that I the batch of seeds were good, anyways out of 10 seeds that I place on the paper towels 4 sprouted so I just placed them in individual paper rools and under my grow light, hopefully I'll have little plants soon, but we will see.

The only think I can think of is I used regular tap water, also my peroxide was kind of old so maybe this was the reason the seeds did not sprout.

HoneyBee, that is a gret article, I definetely want to try the peroxide again and see if it works, I might go to the store and buy new hydrogen peroxide and see if this was the problem.

Honeybee that's a great link. Thanks.

Carminator I'm just so disappointed that it didn't work. You got 4 out of 10 with plain water in the towel and that's still poor germination. I think old peroxide just turns into water so it wouldn't have hurt anything.

I think there may be a problem with your seed. I've got loads of purchased and saved seeds from this year and if you'll dmail me some idea of your wish list, I'd be glad to share.

You've still got time to start and grow any of the cole crops. Last year I started some cauliflower and never got around to planting it. Sometime in December I noticed 2 of them surviving my neglect and I planted them. They never received good care because I thought it was too late. They both made a small head in spite of me.

twiggybuds thank you so much for your offer,

The seed that I got in a trade was collected in 2007, I still have lots more seed thankfully, I am definetely not complaining, the nice lady also sent me a few dragon tongue seeds which I've been wanting to try for a long time now.

If I can get 4 plants to grow for me this year, I will not be dissapointed at all, I might even try to save seed from one of these broccoli to try to get newer seeds.

I also started some Broccoli Rabb seeds and almost all of them sprouted, so I planted them in containers as well. ( not sure if I will like this one, but I got them for free with the purchase of other seeds so I thought I might try them out).

I might start a couple of more Broccoli seeds in moist paper and see if I can get a few more to sprout to plant more.

Twiggybuds, I have a question for you. As you know I have some green manure growing in my raise beds right now with the hopes of improving my soil quality.

I was wondering if I should let them grow to completion which would take most of the winter or if I should turn the green manure now in one of my raise beds , let it rot for a couple of weeks and and plant winter veggies, such as the broccoli, carrots, and lettuces. The green manure or beans are pretty high now so I am sure it will give some nutrients to the soil. I also have the horse manure that I got for free which is practically finnished composting and worm castings.

I have been wondering if this would be a good idea or not for a while and wanted to get somebody else's opinion.

Thanks

I don't have enough experience with growing as you are trying to do to properly advise you. Assuming your cover crop will die down with the first hard frost, I think I'd set the broccoli plants without disturbing any more than I needed to. Your soil in those beds should still be fairly loose and rich. My thinking is that the legume roots will slowly release their nitrogen as the winter passes and the top growth will be a nice mulch for the new plants. It would keep the soil from splashing up and by spring planting time, it should have almost disappeared.

Everything I've read says green amendments worked into the soil deplete nitrogen as they break down. I do it but I always use chemical ferts plus micros to try to mimic a good compost pile. It sounds like your beds are already superior to my container soil. The broccoli makes big leaves that should just push the legumes out of their way as they grow. I would definitely try it and if they seem slow to grow, give them some more fert of some kind. If for some reason this doesn't go well, you can have some more ready to go in around New Years.

I sense that you're really wanting to get started and it would be awful if you spent the winter kicking yourself. Besides, as soon as DH starts getting something to eat from those beds, the more willing he'll be to make more.

Twiggybuds,
I like that DH logic!

twiggybuds, thank you for your input. That might actually not be a bad idea.

The cover crop that I have consists mostly of oats and vetch along with a few winter peas and beans, it is supposed to be winter hardy so I am not sure if it will die with the frost.

Since the only thing I am planting is broccoli and rappini and a few lettuces that I started a while back, I'll just wait until I am almost ready to plant them out.

About wanting to start, yes you are right, I keep thinking that if I don't start now I will have to wait until the tomato season to be able to plant stuff, and I want my DH to build me more raise beds but I also want to show him the benefits of growing your own veggies as well.

Thanks for all your help.

Here is a picture of my first pick ever of Black Seeded Simpson lettuce grown on an earthbox.

It is just baby lettuce right now but it is growing big, I can't wait to try it tonight with some roasted garlic.

I also wanted to post a picture of my worm compost, I have a lot more to collect but I am doing it little by little.

I love to mix it with my potting or seed starting mix as an extra nutrient to pmy seedlings, this stuff is great.

You're doing great. My lettuce has barely germinated and you're eating already. There's something wrong with that.

LOL - I haven't even planted my lettuce yet. Been too hot, but I plan to start sowing some this week... That picture is making me hungry!

Actually I planted this lettuce about 3 weeks ago, it's been doing great. The first batch that I planted I ended up having to compost it because the leave were just too bitter plus they were very yellow with all the rain.

Boy! yesterday I went nuts in Lowes and bought all kinds of lettuce seeds, 4 seasons, endive, arugula etc... I am planning to plant all these and my broccoli and broccoli Rabb and beets in my raise bed. I decided to turn all the green manure into the soil and place some clear plastic on top to decompose it faster, I was told in about a week I'll be able to plant some veggies. I can't wait to start.

carminator, that sounds like a great plan! Do you practice succession planting? Especially with lettuce, it's good to plant your initial crop and then 1-2 weeks later plant the next and so on through the latest time you can plant that crop. It gives you a more continual harvest and not all kinds of stuff maturing at once. That can get a little overwhelming - lol. How cold does it get where you are? I can plant greens all fall and winter, pretty much up until early March. Any later and they bolt as the temps start climbing!

Your lettuce being bitter was maybe due to it being too warm out still? Most lettuces will bolt in the heat and go to seed or become very bitter.

Actually this is my first time planting lettuce, but yes I was planning to do a succession planting expecially with the lettuce since like you said you have to eat this stuff fresh and you just don't want too much of it at one time.

I was also thinking of planting 2 rows of beets but this ones I was going to plant all at once, that way I can just pickle and can the beets.

I am starting some onion seeds as well, hopefully by the time they are ready to be planted outside, my other raise bed will be ready. According to the companion planting book, onions do well with tomatoes and so does carrots, so I will plant tomatoes and carrots and onions in the same bed and then plant a few basil plants as well.

Hopefully my DH will build me some more raise beds, and that way I can plant more stuff.

Have any of you checked the Dervaes family in Youtube, it really is amazing how much they can plant in such little land. If you have not seem them you can type dervaes family in you tube and see them, they really are an inspiration.

I will have to check them out on my home computer! Work one blocks YouTube:^(

I have a square foot garden and was amazed at how much I could grow in little space, especially when you grow stuff vertically.

Glad you have the succession planting in mind! It's the way to go. I plant a few different kinds of beets because we love the greens. I really don't like the beets so much - lol. I'll send them all to you - hee hee hee. Good idea to plant all at once of you plan to can or otherwise preserve them. You're doing a good job for being a beginner. Keep it up! You learn something every season. I like to succession plant carrots too. My whole family loves to walk through the garden and eat what they can, so I need to make sure I have plenty going all the time!

Once your DH sees how much you like gardening and eating the fresh produce, it won't be hard to get him to build you some more beds. Worked for me!

C,
Thanks for that tip about the Dervaes. They are truly an awesome family unit! We're talking "Little House in the City!"

Hey Kelly!
About to leave for the day, but would like for you to discuss beet varieties that grow BIG leaves. I've learned to LOVE beet greens, and the roots have become a by-product for me, although I do like pickled beets.

Ciao!

Linda

Hiya Linda!

I posted on the Osaka thread that I planted some seeds yasterday!!!

I like Detroit Dark Red and Early Wonder, both Heirlooms, for greens. The EWs greens grow up to 18" tall and they are very delicious. Both varieties I've even eaten the older (bigger) leaves and they are not tough or bitter at all if you cook them. For raw eating I use the small leaves and toss a few in salads.

The EW are also I think like 48 days to harvest or round about - good if you want to succession crop them, but I've always just kept the greens harvested and they keep producing for a long long time. Of course the roots may not be so good by then, but I mostly don't eat them anyway - lol.

Actually I have to tell you that I don't like beets either but my DH loves them so I am doing the beets more for him than me, but heard that the greens are delicious so I thought I might give them a try. I bought a mixed beet package of beets so supposebly it comes with lots of different varieties, even the yellow kind of beet which supposebly are sweeter.

The carrot thing is a good idea, I was just going to plant them all at once thinking that they take a long time to mature but succession planting sounds better.

Yes I think my DH will build me more raise beds, he also sees the benefits of planting your own veggies, I am hoping to have at least 4 raise beds this year, so far I have 2 raise beds that are 4x8 so I am hoping to be able to raise a lot of veggies.

Not a problem Linda, I know they really are an incredible family, it kind of makes me want to go back to the simple way of living.

Check also claires allotment on you tube she does give good tips on growing veggies as well, and of course don't forget about garden girl , she is also a lady that grown in the city, she also has great tips as well.

Thanks for the tips!

I started with 3 - 4' x 4' beds. By the time my veggies were coming up, I had DH building me a 4' x 10' bed and a 2' x 12' bed. In total I have I think 108 sq ft of raised beds and I already want more more more - lol. If you get a chance check out the All New Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew. I don't follow it to a T, but there are some great concepts in there on growing a lot in little space!

Let me know how that beet mix does for you, esp with the greens!! I have a really good recipe for beet greens I will post when I get a chance. I'll probably post it on the recipe forum and link to it from here.

Last year I planted some beets in a pot and forgot to water it regularly. Only one came up and after awhile I pulled it out so I could use the pot for something else. I just threw it under a tree thinking it would be unrecognizable in a few days. The silly thing lived and had beautiful leaves. Everyone that saw it wanted to know what it was. They thought it was some kind of fancy winter ornamental. So anyone that has ratty looking flower beds and can grow beets through the winter.....it's an idea.

Talking about a simple life, here it is explained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McvCJley78A

>>Have any of you checked the Dervaes family in Youtube, it really is amazing how much they can plant in such little land. >>

Yep, Carminator1, I love all the Path to Freedom videos. So inspirational. (locakelly, you really have to check them out!). They have a nice website with good blog-reading on it too.
www.pathtofreedom.com

Just think, if we can do even 10% of what that family does, we're looking at 600-1000 lbs of produce per year. That is what I hope to learn to do.
LiseP

Yes that's my goal too, expecially with the rising prices of produce, plus the fact that a lot of store bough veggies just don't have a taste at all. For example I love artichokes and have a really nice recipe for artichoke hearts and rice but artichokes here are about almost 2 dollars a piece, and so I haven't had artichokes for a long time, you can also use frozen but I am not able to find them here at all so I am hoping to grow them myself and see how it does.

Right now I am reading all their blogs they are really nice and I am learning a lot from them. Plus I am getting tons of good recipes, check the jalapeno jelly one, I like jalapenos but never know what to do with so many so this is a good alternative.

Is nice to know that you don't have to live in the country or have tons of land to be able to get a decent produce.

Carmen, Lise, Loca et al,
I've been wondering if my return is anywhere near my $$ investment, though. I'm thinking that it's probably very NOT at this point, but the return of peace in the garden is what's working for me right now.

I've invested considerable $$$ and time since I started in 2007, and my return, produce-wise, has been minimal.

I would like to know that, one day, I'll be getting more OUT of the garden than I'm putting INTO the garden!

I am just starting right now and I am just spending lots of $ trying to a get a garden going. I am hoping that one day I will be able to produce more than what I spend in the garden. There are ways to save though, like for example to start a compost bin so in the future you can use that compost to fill your raise beds instead of buying manure from the store, also I got some free horse manure recently so I am planning to put that in my new raise beds as well. I also have a vermicomposting system that I built myself out of a rubbermaid bin and so I get worm compost as well.

Another way to save money is to save all your toilet paper rolls or big paper rolls, I tend to cut toilet paper rolls in 2 sections and regular paper rolls into 4 sections and plant the seeds there, the toilet paper will biodregrade once the little plant is ready to be placed outside in the garden, they act just like jiffy pots but without the huge cost, I also use yogurt cups as well.

I really think you do spend $ initially but once the beds are stablished and you get your own manure going, you will be able to save money in the longrun, plus think of how much better the veggies will taste.



I am trying an organic method used by Lee Ohara, I really like his organic method of planting veggies, but we will see how it goes.

This message was edited Oct 6, 2009 12:06 PM

Thanks for the link, LiseP. I plan to check all these out!

Linda - inititally the investment does seem to far outweigh what you get in return produce-wise. A lot of stuff I grew my first season was also just a little of this and a little of that, kind of a test garden so to speak. Now I'm full on into succession planting and trying to keep all my available space producing something year round. I also initially had to buy seeds (mostly) and a few plants, but now am able to save seeds and trade here on DG. Had I found DG before I started I probably could have kept the seed costs down with all the awesome traders here willing to help a newbie out - lol.

carminator - I like you try to be frugal. My kids are always asking me why are you saving this or that - lol. I tell them it's for the garden and they think it's cool. Now they ask me all the time, hey, mom - can you use this? LOL

My reason for gardening is this: I love to be a part of the miracle of those plants growing from those seemingly lifeless little seeds. I enjoy being outside working (well, except during the summer here - lol) and digging in the dirt. I love being able to walk into my backyard and pick my dinner.

I'm nowhere near the point yet where I get more out than I put in, but I think that is OK with me. The more time that passes the more I learn. I hope to instill that same passion for growing things in my little boys. I want them to know that you don't have to live on a farm or have lots of land to grow things. I live in the heart of the city, my backyard separated from a major avenue by a mere block wall. I want folks to look over that wall and say - WOW! All that in the city!

If you all are looking for any particular veggie seeds, let me know. I have a pretty large variety, mostly heirlooms, and am always looking for new ones to try. I have plenty of some to share!

Happy Gardening!

Kelly

P.S. carminator - thanks for starting this great thread!

Hey Kelley,
Thanks for that perspective. Could you post a pic of your little plot of heaven, so I can dream of more possibilities? Thanks!

Linda

Hey Linda...

These are the only two pics I have on my work computer, but this will give you an idea...

We started with the 3 - 4' x 4' beds and as you can see in the pics promptly added a 4' x 10' bed and a 2' x 12' bed - lol. DH knows more are coming!

Kelly

. . . another view...

Fall planting is underway so will have more pics of the recent stuff here real soon. I have a lot of pics on the home 'puter and will post some more when I have some time maybe tonight...