Managing Menacing Roosters:

Thank you Cindy!!! But in reality the Kudos go to the wonderful people of this forum. This is not said to be humble, but rather because it is true. I'm am and have been so inspired by the good people of this forum. I could start in and list every name on this forum and tell you how you have taught me so much and inspired me so much. That is why I try to get new people to try out the forum. I want them to experiene the true and warm experiences I have had. I'd be up all night telling of the goodness you all. Haystack

I have had a ton of D-mails wanting pic's of how I use the air space in my coop, I have promised to start a new thread and furnish pictures. I spent all day building a pen and taking pics so I could show how I have done it. For some reason I have come across another problem getting the pic into my pictures. My friend who helped me is very sick, so I am waiting for him to get well so he can help me out.

For those of you I promised, I'm very sorry, this is going to be delayed a few days. I do promise as soon as he is well it will get posted. Haystack. If I weren't such a computer nerd.

Very well said Cindy! I feel the same way.
Haystack makes me smile when I'm walking through the field.. or at the store.. or even on the phone with Krystal.. Funny how she "knows" Haystack and always giggles when I tell her about our emails or posts..

Haystack, you've made friends you didn't even know!

I too tell all the chicken people I meet about DG. I love this place and what it's given me! So many happy memories here. :)

I'm sure no one is rushing you Hay..

No rush...You done yet?
Kidding!!!! ;) I love it here also ZZ. Many specail people here.

Bumping up for us!

Thanks, everyone should learn about this technique.

I read this thread again, twice. This really needs to be a Sticky. I learned a lot from this, thanks for the bump up. You all are the BEST.

Thisis especially important to me right now as I'm planning to keep a few roosters from hatches. I can clearly see that I humanized the roos I had before and didn't let them be roos. They had a job to do and I wasn't letting them do it because the hens lost a few feathers in the process. I did Hay's holding method with the roosters and it really did work. I can see now that I gave it up too soon and really hated them ripping out feathers on the hens.

I really hope you all will keep adding to this - great info by people I trust to have the best interest of chickens, and letting them BE chickens.

The one thing I will not give in one is..... my Wellies really are dumb as rocks. LOL

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Please continue this thread!!

Annie

Bumping again-

Is there a way to get this info as a Sticky?

Just wrote to ADMIN to ask how, hopefully they will let us know soon.

I will put a link to this thread in the sticky.. No need to keep bumping.. it won't go anywhere.. :)

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This message was edited Mar 21, 2011 7:55 AM

OK Annie: I have obeyed. I sent a message to Melody to make it a Sticky. I wished I knew how to do those things. Am I hopless or what...LOL...Hay

Edited for space

This message was edited Mar 21, 2011 8:02 AM

You might be interested in this: http://www.behavior1.com/index.html
I work in an animal shelter in the behavior and training department and my boss went to Bob Bailey's chicken camp a number of times. Chickens are VERY trainable, and a lot of the dominance theory stuff is out of date these days.

This is another website with really interesting information: http://www.clickertraining.com

Shhhhhhhhhhhh I am lurking... and reading... and lurking... and loving being back.... Shhhhhhhhh

Edited for space

Lurk away Miss J, I'm just glad to see you and Billy back.

;~} had to post a pix of the boy for all of you to remember us

Sorry but what works never goes out of date...Hay

This message was edited Mar 21, 2011 8:14 PM

I'm not saying that force-based methods can't work, but using force can often have other consequences like increased aggression and animals that are too shut down to learn effectively.

The dominance studies were 50 years ago and they have been overturned since then. We just know more now then we did then.

There are a lot of positive reinforcement methods of training now that produce a happier and more willing animal. Clicker training in particular will get you an animal that is interested in interacting with you and is eager to learn. You can train everything from elephants to mice this way, it's really exciting and interesting.

I don't mean to come off rude, but aren't you assuming an afwul lot. You mention force techniques, and you insinuate I teach force. You have never seen me instruct a class but yet you assume. I find that rude. I have seen the clicker technique many, many times and I see some value in that, and yet not all together. Would or do you use the clicker technique to train your children, do you believe in the time out method for children. Just wondering? Methods are always up for stiff debate. Thanks for your opinion...Hay

No matter what you are training it is necessary to first have its respect. The animal (or young child for that matter) must view the trainer as a superior or leader not as an equal. One way animals communicate their superiority is by holding their heads higher than their challengers. That is what I see happening in Haystack's rooster training technique. There is no real force involved. I press the rooster's head low with one finger and have never met significant resistance. I have used the same general principle in dealing with "pushy" horses. I put their heads lower than mine - not possible with force. I achieve psychological dominance not physical dominance.

I apologize if I sounded rude. That was very much not my intent, I simply wanted to share some other training methods. The people here are obviously very knowledgeable.

I'm not assuming anything about a class I haven't attended, but many of the examples given in this thread describe force-based methods. Force doesn't mean violence or harm, it means physically manipulating the animal. One method is holding the rooster under ones arm, one method is moving the rooster away with a stick, one method is pushing on the beak to lower the rooster's head. These are force-based methods because they involve physically moving the rooster. I'm not passing any judgements. I also don't comment on child rearing because I don't have any children.

As an example, say I want to teach my dog to sit. I can push on his bottom until he sits and then praise him for doing it. That is force-based because I am physically manipulating the dog to make him do what I want. Or I can hold a treat directly over his nose and slowly move it back over his head - the head comes up, the bottom goes down, he is sitting and I praise him. That is shaping a behavior. Both methods work, they're just different. A very sensitive dog may not respond well to being pushed on. A very distracted dog may not respond to food. Different. Personally, I prefer to shape behaviors. Many animals are much stronger than humans and force-based methods with large animals can get humans very injured. I'm sure you all know that!

Speaking strictly from personal experience, the biggest problem with dominance anything is that it so often masks the real answer (or even the possiblity of a different answer). I hear "he pees on the floor because he's dominant" but what if he has an infection? I hear "he's aggressive because he's dominant" but what if he's really scared to death? Being dominant over him isn't going to fix either an infection or fear, and it will probably make fear worse. But why bother taking him to the vet if we already "know" it's dominance?

Positive reinforcement methods quickly have animals thinking all good things come from humans. I want my animal to see me and think "here comes that lady that brings good things" not "here comes that lady with whom I have an adversarial relationship."

Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

sylvi74 welcome to the Poultry & Livestock forum. I think the term "force" is what caused some ruffled feathers. I understand what you mean by forced methods... regardless if it be a hand or a finger, manually moving an animal by using a hand is called forced.. I'm glad you explained it above. Force is a harsh word is all...

I know what you mean though, I've seen people try to train horses or dogs by pushing them to steer them away or whatever.. and it SO doesn't work!

Haystack's method above may be labeled a forced method, but it works, without repercussion. It saves Rooster's lives, keeps people from getting hurt and provides for a happier environment for all concerned (including the hens). As well as calming a rooster that objects to being handled, mostly from fear... it is calming and that is what is needed... in all situations! For instance, an injured animal.. or visitors, etc. With the method he teaches, there is no lasting aggression that just comes up in other areas, it just calms the rooster and creates a safe environment.

I see your point, it's just not the case in this particular method.

I hope you continue to add your thoughts and opinions to our forum. Someone might have just been waiting to find what you have to offer. It takes all kinds of opinions and information to make the DG world go round.

Wow! I had no idea that the anti-dominance ideology had extended to chickens. I find it fascinating that current academic thought tells us that we are just imagining animals behaving hierarchically. I have 15 rescued feral cats and three rescued feral dogs from Taiwan and almost always have another foster dog. Every single day i observe them relating to each other in a hierarchical manner. I wish they were egalitarians but reality shows me otherwise. I always enjoy hearing about different training methods so this post is getting me in training for the time when I can add chickens to my furfamily.

Dominance theory never applied to chickens because chickens aren't pack animals in the first place. The original dominance studies applied only to wolves. The wolves in the study were wild-caught animals in captivity FROM DIFFERENT PACKS which were caged together in too-small enclosures. They fought violently. From this, we developed flawed ideas of what wild wolves acted like. Then the assumption was made that dogs are wolves.

Once researchers began to study wild wolves in the wild, we got a much better idea of what life is really like for wolves. It doesn't include violent battles. Violent battles injure animals and injured animals can't hunt for a living. It doesn't make sense for animals who are cooperative hunters to injure each other. If you watch footage of wild wolves, what you see is a lot of body language, posturing, and noise. You DON'T see wolves hurting other wolves, you DON'T see wolves "alpha rolling" other wolves. You DO see appeasment behaviors where other wolves roll THEMSELVES over to show their bellies, but there is no physical force involved.

Yes, animals behave hierarchically but it isn't rigid and unbending and it doesn't involve force and violence. I'm sure that anyone (including me) with several animals can tell you that Dog 1 may be dominant over the food bowl while Dog 2 is dominant over the couch while Dog 3 is dominant over the toy. These relationships are fluid and change. There is no single "dominant" animal who runs everything. It just doesn't happen that way.

Another problem is that dogs just aren't wolves. Sure, they look a lot like wolves. Yes, they developed from a wolf-like ancestor. However, we have artificially bred them for thousands of years to not be wolves anymore. "The wolf does it so the dog must do it" isn't sound reasoning. "I can be the dominant member of the wolf pack" doesn't work either. The dog does not think that we are dogs. The dog KNOWS that we are not dogs. Dogs are amazingly tolerant of the things we do to them, mostly because we have selected them to live with us and not hurt us. Alpha rolling a dog doesn't teach him that you are dominant, it teaches him that you like to force him onto his back. Many dogs will tolerate this. Some will bite you badly. Some will develop a fear of you. Some dogs are so frightened that they will roll over and pee all over themselves. They aren't saying "you're a dominant dog," they're saying "I'm scared that I'm going to die, please don't hurt me."

We just don't need our animals to fear us. There are other methods. That's all I've tried to say here. I apologize if I'm offending anyone, that isn't my intent. Can fear control animals? Yes. Fear can control people too. The problem comes when the person or animal has had enough and explodes and hurts us. PERSONALLY (not speaking for anyone's methods but mine) I want my animals to like me and enjoy being near me. I don't want them to fear me. I have a fearful dog. He came to me that way at age 9. He is nervous even though I have never treated him with anything but kindness. If I were to alpha roll him, it would be a horrible and terrifying experience for him. If I corner him and put him in a situation where he thinks something truly terrible is going to happen to him, he might bite. He wouldn't be biting because he is trying to be dominant, he would be biting because he doesn't think he has any other recourse. I feel bad for the poor guy, going through life being scared so much. I don't want to make it any worse. He's come a long way since I got him with NOTHING but positive reinforcement training. My personal experience is that you catch way more flies with honey than with vinegar. I'm sure many people have experiences completely different from mine.

Sylvi, I can't speak for anybody else, but I certainly am not offended by a different viewpoint. That is what makes America great. There's a free exchange of ideas.

I fully realize "dominance" studies were conducted on wild-caught, but ultimately captive wolves. Why the anti-dominance proponents cling to any studies about wolves--whatever their results--and seek to distinguish wild wolf behavior from captive wolf behavior--is beyond me. I'm talking about plain old, everyday experience with animals, not some esoteric studies conducted by ethologists who seem to be ideological, and hence result-oriented, when making conclusions about behavior they observe.

I fully agree that animals tend not to be dominant in every single aspect of their existence. That doesn't make them any less dominant. My alpha female dog does not approach bowl licking with the same zeal as the number two dog, so she's happy to accede on that point. That she's primarily dominant, rather than universally dominant, does not make her any less dominant as the leader of her pack.

We had a horrible "neutered tomcat" who was the bane of all cats, but let his wimpy brother dominate him when it came to food, something that wasn't important to him. Yet he remained the quintessential alpha male cat with his giant melon head and tree trunk neck and no other cat dared to confront him. It is entirely irrelevant to the equation that he allowed his brother to get more food. I don't understand why dominant has been translated into universally dominant in every single respect.

My alpha female engages in elaborate dominance rituals with the fosters. First, she play bows (butt-up, happy body language). Then after they start to think she's a nice friendly dog, she lightly mouths the back of their neck, going all the way down the spine to the tail. More play bowing, followed by humping. Yes, a female engaging in an entirely ritualistic display of dominance. Then she grooms the new dog's back of the neck, followed by more humping. After this ritual, the new dog respects her, but does not fear her, the essence of great leadership.

Re "dominance rolls." dogs do that to each other all the time. On one occasion, I poked my alpha female in the side of her neck with nothing but a single index finger after she twice displayed inappropriate aggression (jumping at) another dog in the off-leash area. She responded by going on to her side without the slightest panic or fear, even though she is a very fearful, shy dog. When she went down, all she was telling me was that it was what I call a "righteous bust," the look an animal gives you when it knows exactly why it's being disciplined and acknowledges the justice of the discipline. On another occasion, I had an alpha male foster who was not a bully, but gave her a look telling her that he was king. She went down on her side without being the slighest bit flipped out.

Dominance does not have to be "Tiger Mom" or the "Great Santini" who exemplify nothing but abusive, authoritarian, fear-provoking tyranny. It means somebody is a leader and will be treated with respect.

A rooster is a hard-wired creature, with a built-in desire to dominate. I've had horses all my life and have many a fond memory of running from attack-roosters. I think Hay's dominance rituals were completely non-violent, make perfect sense and have the positive effect of saving roosters' lives as Babiezz appropriately observed.

WOW Illig1: I readily admit I could not have said it with the finess that you just displayed...The new age philosophy certainly has some value, I admit that. The problem it seems to me is that they throw out the baby with the bathwater.

We see that same thing with those who believe children should have no discipline, everything is just "Time Out" I don't believe that, even if a time out would work. It certainly will not work with everyone or every occassion. There must be a place where a good spanking is appropriate.
As you well stated, dominance should not be related to fear mongering. I made it quite clear in the begining that no rooster should be abused or treated meanly. Often times wonderful Roosters go to freezer camp as a last resort. That should not be. I wanted to furnish people with a gentle alternative that I found to work, and the fact that my agressive roosters still want to be close to me proves they are not fearful from the methods that I use. I won't go on as I think you made my case better than I ever could have. P.S. I also enjoy other thoughts that might work better...Hay

Hay, I totally agree that open minds lead to improved knowledge and that we will all benefit from having that kind of attitude, rather than just sticking with what we learned as children. I'm very interested in dog training so I'm always watching shows like "It's Me or the
Dog" which features a positive-only, anti-dominance philosophy, as well as the "Dog Whisperer" which uses dominance-based training. I've learned so much from watching both shows and now use training ideas coming from widely divergent underlying viewpoints. For example, mainstream dog thought tells us that comforting fearful dogs legitimizes a dog's fear and encourages it to be more fearful. I have found the exact opposite to be true, a viewpoint associated with positive-only training. Comforting my fearful dogs and fosters makes them more confident because they feel I am acting as their protectors. They go from barking and growling in fear to taking treats simply by virtue of me comforting them and making them feel more secure. I see this phenomenon over and over and I'm so glad I didn't just stick with the prevailing, old school thought on this topic. So Hay, you are a breath of fresh air in your willingness to hear different ideas on how to handle attack roosters! Keep up the good work.

Thank you, and thank you also for your encouragement. I love dogs, and I know you do also. There is so much to learn, and knowing it all is impossible, but, listening to persons like you is not only encouraging but your positive approach I believe opens people up to hearing what you have to say. I have to laugh, many years ago I was taking flying lessons, my instructor told me to give full throttle and get the plane back in the air, I was supposed to be landing. I said ok, but why. He said remember one thing your approach will determine whether you land as planned or crash and your approach stinks. I started laughing but knew immediately that principal was one that could be applied to all of life. Your approach is excellent and makes me want to hear more of what you have to say. Thank you so much...Hay

I may not have chickens but I am enjoying this discussion.

Everyone is welcome. We enjoy sharing our chickens.

Porkpal is right, we don't care if you have chickens or not, we love having you here and want you to know you are always in or hearts...Hay

Illig1,
I completely agree with you about comforting a fearful dog. About 7 years ago I adopted a cute little pup from a rescue agency, they had found this dog and his brother sitting (perhaps hiding?) in an alley. When I got him and took him home, he was so frightened that he literally shook and trembled all over with fear constantly. I had taken a couple days off work to be home with him, and I wrapped him in a towel and just held him and talked to him soothingly for nearly two days. Finally after about 2 days he began to eat some dog food with milk in it, and eventually he lost his fear entirely, except a fear of men. Even then my younger son discovered that if he had on only shoes or was in his barefeet, the dog was much less cautious of him than if he were wearing his work boots, so he had evidently been abused and kicked around in his past young life by a man wearing boots. I can't imagine trying to comfort and rehabilitate that dog by anything but kindness and love.

It's interesting how psychology and its teachers do an about-face in their theories as the years go by, but it proves that they're simply testing out their theories, and they don't really have all the answers, by any means!

I'm not sure what this has to do with raising chickens, but there must be some connection somewhere out there!

Well I believe that Hay's overriding message is that we're all learning all the time and that we need to keep open minds about suggestions or techniques in how we handle animals. We will all learn much more with that kind of attitude rather than being ideologues.

Hi there Illig1. So tell us a little about yourself, I know you do dogs, so tell us a little about yourself and please feel welcome to chime in on the chicken discussions. Have a great day and it's good to see you...Hay

Hey, Hay! I'm just someone who has enjoyed watching animals my whole life. I really enjoy perusing anything on animal training because the commonalities-whatever the species--fascinate me. Today I couldn't leave the TV when Wild Kingdom had a show on a guy taming Cape Buffalo in South Africa-- a really aggressive animal that responded incredibly well to shows of affection.

I am a wannabe chicken person and therefore check this forum out because when I move to my retirement farm, one of the first things I intend to do is get chickens. You espouse common sense, kind treatment of animals, and an open mind which seeks alternate points of view on how to manage difficult-to-manage animals, like attack roosters. Love it!

Well we love having you here, and look forward to when you get your chickens. I got started with chickens as a fluke. My youngest daughter had five and she had to move, so her husband was going to kill them. I told him no, I would take them a give them a home. I'd not had chickens before. I have five acres to tend to and I noticed they were always following me and my dog. I started watching them and noticed they had a very calming meandering kind of attitude. I liked that so I started giving them treats and soon I couldn't get rid of them. Then I started noticing the difference in their chicenalities...lol...it was incredible to observe. I became so intrigued I started studying them and taking notes. I sorta became their student. They taught me so much. One of the most interesting things I learned was the difference in their language based on what was going on at the moment. I had one that would just coo in my ear almost like a dove. Then I had one that would talk in my ear like a chatty cathy...LOL. I find them to be very soothing, calming and intriguing. Hope I'm not booring you. Please feel free to join us on any of the threads, we talk about lots of animals including dogs, cats, you name it. It's always a real pleasure...Hay This is one of my favorite Serama roosters...

A very tardy reply to your post. I am soo not bored reading all of your chicken lore! I loved listening to my neighbor's chickens who talked constantly. Even though I couldn't see them (because of the six-foot wood fence), I could tell exactly how they were feeling at all times because of their constant chattering, clucking, and cooing, with occasional screeches thrown in for good measure. They are such animated, expressive creatures. I can't believe you're giving up your chickens and heading for life on the road! I hope you'll still be checking in here to give everybody the benefit of your chicken wisdom.

Your never tardy, and what a pleasure to hear from you. It won't really be life on the road, just time to visit people we love while we still can. I'm seventy four and my wife and I recently took up ballroom dancing. I did it for my bride, thought I would hate it. The first three weeks were horrible and I was ready to quit. Our instructor made it clear to me that I was whinning and I just needed to work at it. It finally started sinking in and the last five week I started enjoying it and now I'm loving it and my bride is happy. I want to persue more lessons with our instructor, she is both patient and direct. I'm have been working on the Foxtrott, waltz, tango, and swing dancing. Those four are my focus for the next year. I really like the Tango, it's faster than the waltz, but, slower than swing dancing. Then we want to visit some of the DGer's. They have become like family to me. We also want to spend more time with my brides family, and mine as well. We are not held down like some of the younger that are still working so we need to visit without being a burden. That means putting a camper on our truck that is fully self contained. I will invest in a laptop so I can stay in contact. I love the birds, and their owners and don't really see giving that up totally.

OK now you know everything about us. We know very little about you though. I'd like to know more about you. You, hobbies, family, pets, and anything you would feel comfortable sharing, and yes pictures are always a blast...comon...LOL...Haystack