It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3
In three years, perhaps I will learn how to post pictures. Coelus came through last night outside, we will be away for the weekend & then I may plant zinnias. Don't know if I would try much crossing. At 74 I have all I can do with iris seeds.
I think the coloration on the May 6 zinnia picture came from the male parent, which had a remarkable tricolor with purple-plum colored petal tips suffused to orange with yellow at the petal base. The flower form was an informal cactus style with some interesting shapes at the petal tips. And the flower was big, well over 6 inches in diameter, depending on how you measured it.
ZM
Excuse me while I go get a vase with water. That is positively outrageously pretty. Move over tropical hibiscus. :)
Lucy,
"In three years, perhaps I will learn how to post pictures."
Hopefully it won't take that long, although it may take a while to read this message. Dave wants the pictures to be no wider than 1000 pixels, and they will be downsized by Dave's forum software if you exceed that. It helps to have a decent bitmap editor to resize your pictures with minimal degradation in image quality. I use Photoshop, but Adobe's Photoshop Elements costs much less and has a lot of the capability of Photoshop.
To be on the "safe" side, I down-sample my pictures to 992 pixels wide for display here on Dave's Garden. That is just to guarantee to me that Dave's software does not mess with my images. Presumably 1000-pixels would be OK, but you never know when a software bug will occur at a logical boundary. I am willing to give up 8 pixels just to be on the "safe" side of the boundary.
I use only JPEG images with .JPG file extensions, but Dave's Garden may accept other image types. I don't know the details of that. Most digital cameras can save JPEG images and JPEG compression works fairly well, so I haven't experimented with PNG, TIF, GIF, etc.
When you wish to attach a picture to a message, notice the Image: - Browse feature below the message entry box. Click on Browse and a File Upload pane will open, in which you can browse to where your picture is. It is a very good idea to know in advance where in your computer the image is located, and its exact filename. When you find your intended image filename in the Browse window, you can click on the file (I usually change my File View option to Thumbnails in order to confirm that I have picked the intended picture) and click Open to select it for Dave. I have selected a recent scabiosa-influenced zinnia picture as I went through this process myself.
The file path will now appear in the Image: field. Before you click on the Preview button, you can change the image selection by re-clicking on the "Browse..." button, but once you click the Preview button to preview your message, Dave's Garden uploads your image, the "Browse..." button goes away, and you can no longer change your mind about the picture. (You might be able to contact Dave directly and have him fix an accidentally uploaded "wrong" image.)
There will be brief delay in displaying your preview while the upload process completes. Your preview will show a thumbnail of your image, but you can't click on it yet to see the full sized image yet, and Dave's advises you of that with This is a thumbnail image - the readers will be able to see an enlarged version once it is posted.
If the thumbnail is clearly of the wrong image, you can abort the message transaction by not clicking the "Send" button and simply close your browser window. The image and your message will both go into the "bit bucket" at Dave's.
Otherwise, you can still edit your message in the "Your message:" box, and re-preview your message with the "Preview" button, but you can't change the image. When you are satisfied with your message and the image in the thumbnail, you can click the "Send" button to send the message-picture combination to the forum, where you and everyone else can view it.
Dave's Garden lets you edit your messages after they appear in the forum, but I don't think you can edit what image is attached to them. That's a rather long explanation of how to post a picture here, but believe me, it takes longer to say it than to do it.
ZM
Whoops. you're way ahead of me. Last time I tried to post with a picture from my computer, the computer told me that it could not be found & it was correctly posted!!!! I don't have a digital camera, but have them in the computer from a disc. It is a matter of getting it done, not worrying about pixels at the moment. I learned to type in high school, but need to learn how to use the computer, pictures & everything else. Anyway, when I get that far, I can reread your instructions & figure things out. How does one get your flower off the screen & into the vase? I have some big ones.
Lucy,
Grin. My breeder class zinnias definitely don't go into vases, even though they would look nice there. Instead, they are carefully tended to for their pollen and for their seeds.
With respect to attaching a picture to a forum message, it is best not to try to type in a picture file disk address. It can be done, but it is error prone. Like typing a URL, a single wrong character can "break" it.
You can let Dave's File Browser do the sensitive job of constructing an error-free address string simply by exploring your computer with Dave's File Browser to find your picture and then click on it and click the "Open" button. Of course, it helps to have jotted down where you put the file, so you can guide Dave's File Browser.
Another mistake that is sometimes made is to attempt to change a bitmap image file into a JPEG file by simply renaming the file from, say, flower.bmp to flower.jpg. The computer will let you do the rename, but that doesn't help. In fact, it hurts. The internal file structure of a BMP file is completely different from the internal file structure of a JPG file, and just doing the rename doesn't change the internal file structure. It simply mislabels the file.
Anyway, we can put all this computer stuff on the back burner until you feel like making another attempt at attaching a picture to a message.
ZM
ZM I know that you like the taller zinnias--great for flower arranging (that from my experience arranging flowers for church). I would go for the smaller ones; what would you expect from someone who likes the smaller irises.
Lucy,
There are a lot of small zinnias to choose from. I am a retired senior citizen myself, and I don't like to stoop over or kneel or squat to pollinate small zinnias, because the stooping makes my back sore and the kneeling and squatting is uncomfortable for me. For outdoor gardening, raised beds would be the only comfortable way for me to work with shorter zinnias. The Burpeeana class zinnias, which start blooming at about 15 to 18 inches and form bushes about 2 feet tall, are about as small as I like to work with, and I like to use a portable garden seat to work with them.
The Aztec Sunset zinnia that was pictured back on May 02 was a small zinnia, although I wasn't aware that Aztec Sunsets were a dwarf variety when I planted them. Indoors, compact zinnias are actually a convenience to work with, but I don't want to be restricted to indoor growing.
For really short zinnias, Thumbelinas start blooming when they are only about 3 inches high, and form little bushes about 6 inches high.
http://www.neseed.com/Zinnia_i_Thumbelina_Mix_i_p/19530.htm
You can also find Thumbelinas at the Burpee Seed site:
http://www.burpee.com/category/annual+flowers.do
Zinnitas are an F1 hybrid version of small zinnias like that.
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-1008-zinnia-zinnita-mix.aspx
Short Stuff produces surprising large flowers on a small plant.
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-3173-zinnia-short-stuff-mix.aspx
Magellans, Dreamland, and Distance Mix are bedding plant cultivars in the one foot to 16 inch range. The Swizzles are good compact bicolors.
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/s-731-magellan-series-f1.aspx
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/s-730-dreamland-series-f1.aspx
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-9699-zinnia-distance-mix.aspx
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/s-804-swizzle-series-f1.aspx
I kind of like the Peter Pans, because they have a touch of cactus flowered in their flowers. But because they are an older variety, the Peter Pans are carried by far fewer seed companies today. I still have a few seeds of Peter Pans left over from previous years, but if I need to buy more I would probably go to Hazzard's Wholesale Seeds.
http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=Hazwho
ZM
Are you working on any could be used for cut flowers once they were established? Just curious. Btw, I adopted the garden seat idea soon after turning 40. That is a back saver.
I use a kneeler which is also a seat, depending how you turn it. I have a waraparound cloth back brace which I wear quite often in normal (non-gardening) life because of arthritis of the spine. The 1 ft to 16" would suit as that is the height range of standard dwarf iris. Longer stems would do better for the flower arranging. Do they hold well in water?
Karen,
"Are you working on any that could be used for cut flowers once they were established?"
Yes, most of them could supply bountiful supplies of unusual cut flowers. And they could perform well in the landscape as well. Zinnias make much nicer bushy plants if you pinch at least the central bud. Pinching additional buds makes them bushier still.
However, I haven't been pinching buds, because I have always been impatient to see what that first flower will look like. Space always seems to be limited for me, and the quicker I can cull my zinnia beds, the more space is left for the "good" ones.
In normal zinnia culture, you would space the plants properly to start with and routinely pinch at least the central buds. That gives a prettier landscape and a good supply of cut flowers. And lots of zinnia nectar for the butterflies and hummingbirds. Hopefully in the not-too-distant future I can find enough growing space to do at least some "normal" zinnia culture. Even now, I am putting out a few of my otherwise reject single zinnias for the butterflies and hummingbirds.
ZM
Lucy,
"Longer stems would do better for the flower arranging. Do they hold well in water?"
Zinnias can hold well in water. It is important to strip off any leaves from the stem that would be submerged in the water, because those leaves quickly drown and bacterial decay decomposes them with smelly results. There are special products that you can add to vase water to prolong the life of the blooms.
Since I have Physan 20 on hand, I would be tempted to add some of it to the vase water. For that purpose, I would dilute it somewhere between three quarters of a teaspoon per gallon to maybe one and a half teaspoons per gallon. Physan 20 works for protecting zinnia cuttings from bacterial attack, so it might do well in vase water. But I haven't tried it for that purpose yet. Physan 20 has a lot of uses. Some hospitals use it in their mop water.
ZM
I was thinking of having some z available in later summer to help when my turn to do church flowers. Thanks for the reminder on the foliage although we tend to strip it off. My partner not available for our turn in July so have to think myself. The flowers need to be good from Sat. morning through Sun. although good ones are often delived to shut ins after services.
Lucy,
I have had zinnias stay good in the vase for over a week, as long as they don't run out of water. The zinnia flowers do transpire water, so the water level in the vase does go down steadily over time. As long as the water in the vases holds out, the zinnias should perform quite well for you. And, for just a couple of days or so, that shouldn't be a problem.
ZM
Thanks
Oh, I have to chime in too! Zinnias are wonderful for late summer bouquets! Mine last forever in a nice vase with fresh water!
I'm growing the zinnias for the butterflies, too. 'Cut and Come Agains' and 'Benary Giants' they say are butterfly favorites. If you know of others that are real butterfly magnets, please let me know.
Zen, are there some Zs that have more nectar than others? I suppose so...
Interesting thread. I will have to take some time to study all the posts. Maybe I'll learn something about photography too! t.
t,
"...are there some Zs that have more nectar than others? I suppose so..."
Yes, indeed. The zinnia nectar is borne in the disk florets and some zinnias have a lot more florets than others. I myself don't like a zinnia that "throws pollen", but the butterflies and hummingbirds certainly do, and apparently the All America Selections people also like pollen producing zinnias. The 2006 All America Selections winner, Zowie, is one of the champion pollen producers. It should have an abundant supply of zinnia nectar.
http://www.parkseed.com/gardening/PD/2140/
In the past I have seen a lot of honeybees "working" my zinnia patch, which makes me kind of wonder what zinnia honey tastes like.
ZM
Thanks, Zen,
Are you growing the Zowie? I wonder if they are trying to hybridize 'cousins' of this one?
I grew it from seed a couple of summers ago with some luck. Maybe I will try again.
t,
I am not growing Zowie, because I don't want to introduce its naked central cones topped with pollen florets into my zinnia gene pool. They remind me a bit of a plucked chicken with a few small feathers left on the tail. I have been able to get plenty of bicolor and tricolor zinnias without growing Zowie by growing Whirligigs and Zig Zags and crossing with them.
Pollen florets are attractive to butterflies and hummingbirds for their nectar, but as flower components they are not so good, because they fade and wither within a day and accumulate as brown mummified remains on the flower. That is why I am interested in crossing with the scabiosa flowered zinnias, because their florets are modified petals that retain their color just like the regular petals.
I took this picture today of one of my echinacea flowered zinnia hybrids that bloomed out a couple of days ago. Notice that, instead of fuzzy yellow pollen florets, it has petal-colored florets. I also like its modified guard petals, which are somewhat different from the seed packet scabiosa flowered zinnias. It's also considerably larger than the seed packet scabiosa flowered zinnias. All of my echinacea flowered zinnia hybrids were created by crossing selected scabiosa flowered zinnias with selected larger flowered zinnias. I'll be crossing this zinnia with various other zinnias to increase its flower size and to further improve its flower form.
ZM
Zen, that is a very pretty scabiosa style zinnia. I really like it. I will want to follow your progress on it.
I do like the Zowies too, though, interplanted with Verbena bonarienses and other late summer flowers in the butterfly garden.
My zinnias are now getting into full swing. As this is my first year really paying attention to them, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about their culture and propogation and get a feel for their variability. I have begun to make a few crosses with hopes of creating some interesting candidates for further tinkering. At the present, I have no specific goals in mind as I'm still experiencing the general nature of what is available.
I too have a fascination for the Scabiosa flowered plants and will certainly pay close attention to them. I've created a gallery for representatives of this year's grow out at: http://atenkley.wordpress.com/zinnia/2009-zinnia-gallery/
This is a nice little pink scabiosa flower from a mix purchased from Cook's garden. Most of it's life was in isolation as it was one of the first to flower...and it has not produced any pollen that I've noticed.
Arlan
That's pretty Arlan!!
Arlan,
Based on your WordPress gallery, I am very impressed with your results from the scabiosa flowered zinnias you got from Cooks. I made a mental note to buy some seeds from them. With respect to your scabiosa flowered picture here, I think you can see at least a couple of visible yellow stigmas in the florets near the center of the picture. The anatomy of scabiosa flowered zinnias can present various functional forms, but in this case those stigmas may already have been pollinated from anthers inside the tube of the floret, or some of the stigmas may have emerged before the pollen was available and still be "open" for pollination with pollen that you might apply.
In either case, you might find some viable pollen in the anthers inside the tubes of the florets. You have to mess up the floret to get at that pollen, but in many cases I perform surgery of sorts in order to pollinate inaccessible scabiosa stigmas and in order to gain access to inaccessible scabiosa pollen on anthers.
It looks like you are off to a great start with your zinnia project. I am not attracted to your single Ruffles specimens, but everything else looks good, with several good candidates for breeders, and a really good assortment of scabiosa flowered specimens. Incidentally, your white or ivory Whirligig is a bit off-type with no obvious bicolor color pattern, but it has slender "toothy" petals that I like. I can't wait to see what some of your F1 hybrids are going to look like.
The attached picture is one of my recent recombinants. At first glance, it has a rather conventional cactus-flowered look, but it has an "open" flower form with corrugated petals that have down-curled "teeth" on the ends. I like open flower forms that don't have their petals stacked too close. Closely packed petals could provide hiding places for aphids.
ZM
ZM,
I've been closely observing the plants from the Scabiosia mix. I see basically three types: Singles, intermediate Scabosia with a few modified disk florets and the completly Scabiousia types with all disk florets modified. I'm wondering if there are multiple factors involved or maybe an incomplete dominance type scenario or a combination of both. I would speculate that a cross between the intermediate and the complete Scabiosia could result in more Scabiosia flowered plants than the cross with Scabiosa flowers and non-Scabiosa flowers from a non-Scabosia line. If one is looking to maximize the Scabiosia/Echinacea look, it may pay to do some sibling crosses. If multiple recessive factors are involved, the single flowers from a Scabosia line may still contain a needed gene.... You may have some experience/evidence to support or disprove this....I'm just thinking outloud!
I agree about the Ruffles flower pictures. These were early singles and since then, I've found many complete doubles, but they are the short petal, tight layered type. I also am more attracted to the less formal look.
Your idea about protecting flowers to preserve pollen sure is paying off for me too! Before protecting, I was not very successful in beating the pollen gatherers to the flowers....as I tend to fiddle with the Japanese Morning Glories first thing. I used fiberglass window screen to make the "cages" and they seem to work well. I'm still trying to finalize the most efficient size to minimize weight. The dark picture gives you an idea how I constructed them.
Arlan
Arlan, the zinnias you purchased from Cook`s Garden are exceptional. Very pretty!!! Karen
I thought I would enter the forum with an update on my Benary Giant Zinnias, which have been started indoors around Feb 22nd and grown with liquid seaweed. I transplanted late into the garden, around the 15th of June, but in Vermont we had late frosts, so I was being careful and the beds were not ready for planting. We have two beds, one next to the greenhouse, which is wetter and more heavy than the sandy loam beds where the majority were planted. The plants showed some lack of fertilizer, I think, as the leaves turned brown around the edges, but that might also have been due to a lack of deep watering in the greenhouse and the soil drying out below the surface. I noticed, when planting out that the roots were not entirely wet.
I have not used fertilizer at all, except for the initial stages mentioned above. Now the plants have had their apical meristems cut for market and the effect was quite stunning. One person took the whole lot, saying she loved zinnia flowers ! I also have a friend who owns a flower shop and we trade work for flowers and she is quite happy to come and be able to pick exactly the way she likes the flowers, which other growers don't allow, I hear.
Now I wish I had more, and wait for the next set of flowers to come. It is finally raining here in Shelburne. I hope that helps the plants to grow and not drown them. Can zinnia handle a wet area that iris love ?
I have planted zinnia among my tomato rows, too, just for some color in the field and the slugs seems to leave them alone , where the birds are keeping watch, I assume. I have emptied the greenhouse, mostly and am planting a second round of zinnias and calendula seeds which friends have sent me and which have come up quickly. Now to grow them to a height I can get some pollen to start crossing with the Benary giants.
I am wondering if anyone has used chicken poop tea on zinnias (poop and water diluted to a light brown color and fermented in a plastic pail for two weeks or so) ? I don't want to use it in the greenhouse, it smells something fierce, but maybe amongst the tomatoes, the zinnia would benefit ? I will try it as an experiment. I do have some liquid fertilizer which is an all around "natural" fertilizer, seaweed, some trace minerals, etc, and will use that there.
I do think this time around I will use more "push" (fertilizer) to the plants, since they seem to have settled in, in the greenhouse, waiting for summer, and should have been flowering earlier than June, I think. Maybe it is just a function of the sun and not time, as it seems to be with tomatoes.
Will keep you updated on my progress, but so far, no major problems, just observations. They do make people smile at market, I know.
John,
"Can zinnias handle a wet area that iris love ?"
Probably not. Zinnias like good drainage, their roots like to "breathe", and in water-logged soil their roots will rot. For some info on zinnia culture, see:
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/growing-zinnias.html
http://www.ngb.org/gardening/fact_sheets/fact_details.cfm?factID=8
http://www.mainstreetseedandsupply.com/growing-zinnia-flowers.htm
http://www.floridata.com/ref/z/zinn_ele.cfm
http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/macon/palette/080601.html
I am attaching a picture of a recent scabiosa flowered hybrid recombinant. It's nothing to brag about, but at least it has the central florets. It is in one of my concrete re-mesh wire "zinnia cages" to protect it from wondering animals and stormy winds. It is not partly white as it appears in the picture -- that is just overexposure in the dappled sunlight in my garden area, which is pretty much dominated by trees. I have doubts that my zinnias are getting enough sunlight outside. My indoor operation is still going for that reason. I am trying to improve the situation outside by pruning off a few low-hanging limbs.
ZM
Just looking through while home at lunch time. Looks to be some great info here.
Janet
Arlan,
"I've been closely observing the plants from the Scabiosa mix. I see basically three types: Singles, intermediate Scabiosa with a few modified disk florets, and the completely Scabiosa types with all disk florets modified. I'm wondering if there are multiple factors involved or maybe an incomplete dominance type scenario or a combination of both."
Sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, I agree that multiple factors are involved in the scabiosa-type zinnia flower form. It is not a simple "on-off" type of thing. You can see both scabiosa florets and conventional florets in this recent scabiosa hybrid recombinant that appeared in my garden. It got the toothy guard petals from a toothy non-scabi ancestor and the two-toned color pattern from a Whirligig ancestor. I would much prefer that the center contained only the true scabiosa-type florets, but I will work with this one because of its combination of other traits.
ZM
Hi all,
I mentioned the "toothy" guard petals in my last post. This is a recent bloom with lots of toothy petals, which I really like. I only wish it were a larger flower, since it is only a little over 3 inches in diameter. One of its ancestors was a toothy bloom that I had several years ago. Needless to say, this one has breeder status.
ZM
ZM - That one is very nice. It's definitely a keeper!
This recent echinacea flowered zinnia has some "toothiness" in its guard petals. I had set its pot outside in the garden to let it adjust to outside conditions before digging a hole for it. Its pot had fallen over (Kansas winds) and its bloom had started to adjust before I set it into my garden, so it was having a bit of trouble figuring out which way is up.
ZM
Hello all,
My, my, time does fly when you are gardening. I've been tending my outside gardening while continuing my inside gardening. I've been hybridizing zinnias both indoors and outdoors, sometimes carrying pollen from one to the other. And when an indoor plant starts to get too tall, I transplant it outside.
Most of the scabiosa-based "echinacea hybrid" zinnias have the central florets pretty much the same color as the guard petals, but this one has scarlet florets and baby pink guard petals, and I really like that feature of two different colors in an echinacea hybrid zinnia. It's definitely a breeder for me, and I am giving it special attention.
I didn't notice the tiny ants in the florets until after I processed the picture. This picture was taken in July, and the plant has since produced several more blooms. The little ants are still hanging around, but they don't seem to be doing any harm. At first I was suspicious they were herding aphids, but I haven't found any evidence of that. My guess is that they are drinking some of the zinnia nectar.
ZM
I have been hitting ant hills while weeding, but have only seen them on the peonies. Bees all over the goldenrod which is only plant flowering now. After the rain, the weeds are so bad that we haven't been working with flowers.
Hello Lucy,
Wow! Prompt reply. It's been rainy here, too, which helps a lot of things grow. Since I am retired, I have had time to keep the weeds more or less under control. I didn't notice whether there were ants on the peonies here when they bloomed. It's too late to check on that now, because the peonies here finished their blooming season quite some time ago. As a group, perennials tend to be "one shots". However, I noticed that iris breeders and daylily breeders are producing some hybrids that have a repeat blooming season. I like zinnias because they tend to bloom continuously.
This is a picture taken yesterday of a bloom on the same plant that was pictured above, showing how zinnias continue blooming. Some specimens, like this one, do so without deadheading. Since I pollinate and save seeds from my breeders, they don't have the advantages of deadheading.
My outside garden is unfortunately in dappled shade with tight soil, and zinnias need full sun and well-drained soil. Some of my zinnias have simply succumbed to the shady conditions when I transplanted them outside, but this is one of several specimens that seem to tolerate the hostile conditions. Since I am breeding zinnias, I can rationalize my poor outdoor growing conditions where we are currently renting as a kind of "survival of the fittest" test.
Another unusual feature of this zinnia is the colored veins in the guard petals. I like that, because it is unusual. However, I don't think that all zinnias need colored veins in their petals.
ZM
Hi all,
I am still working toward a "spider flowered" strain of zinnias, with longer narrower petals, and this specimen makes some progress in that direction. The new petals come in white, but quickly develop the base color.
ZM
Hi all,
This is another recent specimen with narrower longer petals that I am using as a "breeder" toward the goal of a spider flowered strain. I didn't notice the small ant on the petal until I was preparing the picture for posting. As I mentioned previously, I have seen several of these small ants on my zinnias, but apparently they aren't doing any harm.
ZM
Hi all,
I am also looking for bi-colored zinnias with longer, narrower petals, and this recent "breeder" represents some progress in that direction.
ZM
