Hardscaping help

I would DIE rather than pop into a hot tub at a store. Honestly, I'd be so self-conscious. I'm cringing even writing this! Gave me a good laugh, though.

I'll go with you. We'll bring champagne... the girls can have Welch's sparkling. Darryl can drive. The sales guys won't know what hit 'em (as long as they work on commission, they'll go to any length to demo a hot tub).

Or maybe we'll just say, whoever puts in a hot tub first will invite the other over! :-)

Happy and Critter, You will probably get more use from your hot tubs in colder weather than you will in mosquito weather. LOL
We love ours and Ric uses it almost daily and sometimes several times a day when his Arthritis is particularly bad. I only use it in cool weather. You would be surprised how comfortable you can be sitting in a Hot Tub with ice in your hair. LOL We had some crazy idea that we would sit ours in the corner of the living room you know were all plants are. Even put in an electric line for it when we built the addition. Ours is on the back porch and I also thought that I would want some type of roof over it but have found that I love having it outside. So nice to sit in the Hot Tub with a glass of wine watching the sun set or the stars at night. Of course our neighbors aren't all that close.

Critter -- you made me laugh out loud. What an image! I think we should bring the dogs and cats too. The cats might not venture in, but they'd find it interesting; our dogs, however, might have a grand old time. And then there's the 95-year old FIL. I assume Jim would come too, no? Someone's got to drive us all home afterwords!

Holly -- That sounds so wonderful. I know nothing about hot tubs. Do they get installed in-ground like a pool? Or do you always climb in? I know just where I would put one if we did it . . . . .

You can put them in ground, but I think maintenance etc. is easier with an above ground fiberglass hot tub (or redwood if you're feeling west-coast-traditional).

Jim is probably heading to India for a week, and then he'll be in Kazakhstan most of February. He thinks he'll end up missing the swap... boo hiss... Oh well, I can probably get into more trouble without him at DPF!

That's too bad -- but he missed the last one too, didn't he? Do I sense a strategy?

There are many type of Hot Tubs, some inground but up here in colder areas I think most are above ground. Most of the inground ones I've seen are part of a inground swimming pool system, near by or attached to. I don't like the ones that spill into a pool. They look really pretty but the hot tub part usually isn't hot enough and the pool part is usually too warm. Our very old Hot Springs holds up really good. Ric does a bit of work on it from time to time and we put on a new cover once. We bought it used for about $400 more than 6 years ago. It's a very effecient model fiberglass inside and out with a solid foam core.
Check out this thread for a real good laugh read the first entry and make sure you don't miss my bathing beauty pics. LOL http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/665701/
This was taken just last week.

I just noticed that in one of my bathing beauty pics you see the weathered edge of my deck. Surprising how much of a difference a coat of stain makes.
You know I just can't seem to find a pic of the Hot Tub without Ric in it. LOL
Critter, Wow a whole month is a long time, he might not be able to get in the door when he gets home. I can just see it now little jungle paths thru the rooms.

Ric has been standing behind me laughing at us. He said there had to be just a few pics of the Hot Tub without him. Nope! All this Hot Tub talk, talked us into it 18* out side and there we were sipping wine, looking at the stars for 20 mins. Only got out because Ric said he was getting pruney. Happy have I talked you into it yet?

Jim was at least in town for the fall swap but ended up having to work all weekend. Grrrrr. His hours get a little crazy-making at times, and yet I can't really complain because he's got a pretty secure job that he really enjoys (most of the time, anyway... this week he's been a little grumpy).

Happy,

Ditto to everything Holly Ann says! We've enjoyed having a hot tub (I think they call them "spas" now, but we think Hot Tub makes more sense) since 1991, and are on our second model of the same brand (Sundance). It's above ground, sitting on a cement slab cutout in the deck with a nice privacy fence all around. No gazebo or pergola above. At first, being somewhat obsessive, I wanted something overhead so we could soak in any weather, every night, even in the rain, but it really can get complicated - your robes & towels would get wet, or you'd need a very large covered area. Besides, in all honestly, we most enjoy soaking at night, like Holly Ann & Ric did tonight, in the peace and quiet outside, looking up at the stars, sipping an adult beverage.

Our first model had a wooden "skirt" which eventually (after over 15 years) began to decay. The acrylic interior was still like brand new. Our new one has a composite wood outside skirt, so no need to stain or hopefully treat to prevent rotting. You can buy small stair sets to use to get in, or build your own, with as many steps as you want.

We did actually "test drive" our first spa, with the salesperson's encouragement. It was toward the end of the day, and we wound up with a small audience, which was a bit nerve-wracking. No, make that a LOT nerve-wracking! LATER someone told us we should have asked to come shortly after the store closed for more privacy. DUH. So, I'm passing that advice on! If you've never owned a spa, you really should sit one that is filled (the stores all have multiple models with water in them), and try out the jets, etc. that they all seem to offer now. For the second one, we just sat in an empty one (of course our original model, which we would happily have bought again, had been discontinued!) to check for comfort and height of seats for us.

And actually, again, Holly Ann is spot on about the mosquito issue too - fact is you probably won't be too interested in soaking in 100 degree water when it's been in the 90s during the daytime. We soak the most in Winter, Spring and Autumn, and only occasionally in the summer, when we do turn the heat down a bit. I can add that we've got a major mosquito population here (Asian tigers mostly - GRRRR) and we've never been bitten outside at night while soaking.

Whatever you decide to do, if you get one, you will love it!

Hope this wasn't TMI!

Barb

PS: Just had to add, that when it's not in regular use during the summer, my spa (with cover) makes a WONDERFUL, albeit pricey, potting table - huge area and just the right height too! ;-)

Barb and Holly: Wonderful information -- I really do appreciate it. How do you extend electricity and water to your tubs? And does it cost an arm and a leg to run them?

Always good to ask questions. Our carpenter pointed out that if it rains, right now our lovely trench will direct water directly to our basement. I hadn't thought of that until he mentioned it, though it now is ridiculously obvious. Since we aren't ready to do the work right away, I think I'll block it with bags of sand, and get the remainder of the trench dug soon (once the ground thaws) so water can be directed away from the house. If Jim hadn't mentioned it, I would not have seen the problem until my basement flooded. There but for the grace of God . . . .

I'd have words with that landscape designer. They didn't notice that? Good thing your carpenter saw it.

I didn't use the landscape designer -- I only got her to give me a bid, and it was too high for my taste (over $1000 for just a fairly short sort-of French drain that wouldn't have approached the house at all). I did this mistake all by myself! The trench had to tie into the house because we needed the electrical tie-in. But it hasn't rained a drop since we did the work, so the problem can be completely averted. Hooray!

I don't blame you. Goodness, $1,000! I'm so glad the carpenter saw it before your basement got flooded.

Happy,

Glad you got that drain thing resolved before flooding the basement!

I have to say that we have never noticed a huge jump in our electric bill with the hot tub. If you know your soaking habits (for example, as I said earlier, we prefer to soak under the stars), you can have it cycling up to higher heat late in the day. The newer ones are pretty automatic. I'm sure it does pull some power, but it's definitely worth it to us!

We fill it and drain it with a regular garden hose, and when the original tub was installed, they ran a dedicated line/circuit for the power, so it's permanently "plugged in". Our hot tub is right against one side of the house, so the distance from the electrical connection is very short. The inside line runs under the floorboards through the basement. It was pretty straightforward.

And as you may have noticed in Holly's photos, they all come with insulating covers that flip up, and can either be removed completely, or just folded over when you are soaking. Our new one came with a gadget that will hold the cover upright at one end of the tub once you flip it open. If you're considering something like that, just plan out which way it would flip, (we made sure ours goes up against the fence behind us) or it could feel like you've got a wall, blocking your view.

I'm attaching a photo in case what I've written isn't exactly clear. This was taken just after we redid the entire area - had to get the new hot tub, which led to deciding that a new (composite - YAY!!!) deck was in order, since of course the old one wouldn't look good with the new hot tub... and then the fence needed to be replaced too, for the same reason. Sorta like when you get a new kitchen sink, and wind up with an entire kitchen renovation, ya know? ;->

ANYWAY - to the left of the tub in the photo, you can see the power line. The cover is flipped up, and if you look closely you can see some black metal rods at either side - those are part of the "lifting" mechanism. At this point, we just flip it up so it's perpendicular to the pool, and the thingy (pardon the technical term!) holds it upright, against the fence.

Again, hope this isn't TMI, and that it helps. If you've got any other questions, just ask, or d-mail.

Barb

Barb: Definitely not TMI, and I have more questions:

Does it plug in the way a lamp does, or is there a permanent connection to your electrical line?
Where does the water go when you drain it?
Will it sit on my flagstones (which are not perfectly level - they are set in sand rather than concrete), or would I need to provide a flooring of decking or poured concrete?
How long does it take to heat up from "cold?"

I seem to remember that a hot tub takes a bigger electric line (220 not 110) than most household appliances..

And its own 50 amp breaker, which could require a new panel in lots of older homes. It can use a plug, like the ones on the back of an electric range or oven, or be hard-wired permanently.

Happy,

It's a permanent connection, on its own circuit..

To drain, we put one end of a garden hose in the tub, and run the other out to the street where it goes into a storm drain. We make sure that we do this when any chemicals (chlorine, bromine) used to treat the spa are not in the water.

I would definitely suggest it be put on a concrete pad - ours holds 400-450 gallons of water when filled, and I don't even want to think about how heavy that is! Can't remember how much the pad cost, but again, it was well worth it for stability and keeping things level.

I'm not sure decking (without reinforcement) only would be recommended - we put the deck in after we had the concrete pad poured back in '91. I learned from experience with the first tub was to make sure that the cutout was wide enough for a broom. We have a lot of trees, not even overhead, but lots of leaves make their way to the deck in the fall. The deck butted right up against the first tub on 2 sides, with room for one person to go between house & hot tub & fence and hot tub on the other 2 sides. At the time I thought that would look better. No matter how hard we tried to keep up with it, leaves and those blasted poplar tree seeds would get lodged in between the deck & tub. My photo of the new tub shows the slightly larger clearance on the sides, which makes cleaning out a breeze. Actually, I think I used a brick as a measuring tool.

And I should add that our deck is essentially at ground level, not raised at all - not sure you can tell that from the photo.

I'd have to check our records for sure, but usually if we drain & refill it before noon, it should be heated up by evening. Of course, it takes longer in the winter, since the incoming water will be much colder. We try to schedule draining/refilling for spring and fall (about every 6 months).

I'm not saying these are RULES, just what we've learned from experience, and things that have worked for us. Questions like what type of surface to put a hot tub on safely, could be answered by a dealer/salesperson.

It looks like Holly's tub is on a deck, so maybe she can chime in here about how that works - are there supports hidden underneath?

It's nice to be talking about hot tubs when the temperature is hovering around 14 at my house! ;-)

Cheers, Barb

Critter, you're right about the difference in power - our line for the hot tub is at least 220, maybe 240.

Claypa, our house was built in 1954, and they were able to connect it to the original circuit panel, but I don't know if this is unusual or not.
It has been our sad experience with this place, that if there's anything 'off' that could affect installing anything, our house will be OFF! ;->

As I said, ours is hard-wired, for a permanent connection, and I'm honestly not sure that a plug was even an option. Again, perhaps with different brands, that could be the case.

Barb

About the panel, it just depends if there's enough 'slack' or headroom electrically, in the panel. New houses here are required to have a 200 amp panel, whether you're using that much or not, to have room to add circuits as necessary. My house is only 100 amps, so I'd need a new panel installed. A house could have a 200 amp panel thats nearly full, so they might have to add a separate breaker like you sometimes see for water heaters.

The plug vs. hard-wired is probably more of an indoor/outdoor issue, local codes etc.

The 220 or 240 voltage is just nominally whatever pepco is putting out that day, times two (two hot wires instead of one for regular 110 or 120 voltage )

Claypa: I appreciate your joining it -- hope you are well.

Daylily: A million thanks for all your help. I may have to trudge over to Falls Church to check yours out (just kidding -- don't worry!).

We added a subpanel some years back so I think we have enough space in our current panel. Plus we converted from an electric to a gasour dryer from electricity to gas, so we should be in good shape. Now that I think of it, the used electrical plug for the dryer is RIGHT next to where the hot tub would connect, so it should be a breeze for the electrician to connect it if we really follow through on this.

My only reservation at this point (other than convincing my spouse that this is a good idea, which will be an uphill battle) is that it seems environmentally corrupt to keep a huge tub of water hot outside just waiting for me to decide to jump in. Oh and that pesky matter of money -- thankfully I don't have a clue what hot tubs cost, so that is not (yet) a deterrent. I am living in blissfully oblivion.

Ooh, I think that connection for the old dryer is *exactly* what your hot tub would require.

With the insulation around the new fiberglass tubs plus a good cover on the top, I don't think it takes that much energy to keep the water warm in the hot tub... and just a little boost gets it up to soaking temp. If you do it, though, do it right... a friend of mine put in a hot tub and then kept the temp at something like 90, partly to save energy I think and partly so it wouldn't get "too hot for the kids." Well, that would be warm for a swimming pool, but it gets chilly in a hot tub when you're just sitting, especially if you've got bubbles going.

I like the way we started out discussing a few low voltage lights and now we're on hot tubs. ;-)

This is very James Joyce-ian, this free-flowing thought process!

So is fiberglass better than wood for the hot tub material?

Happy,

Do you mean the inside or the outside of the hot tub? Again, I can only speak for one brand, since I have no experience with others, but all the Sundance ones now come with a composite outside "skirt" (used to be wood), polyurethane foam insulation all around the body inside the skirt, and the body is molded of resins and laminate (I'm sure there is all sorts of specific information on their web site).

As Critter said, with the new insulation inside and the covers are so well constructed that if you have snow, it will NOT melt on top of the cover, even though the water underneath is 100+ degrees! This was true even for our original one.

We keep ours at about 103 in the winter, and by the time we're ready to get out, the temp has dropped to about 96. Again, as Critter said, 90 degrees wouldn't feel remotely hot, more like lukewarm.

As for saving energy, I understand the logic of setting a lower temp, but truly, once you get the heat to your desired temperature, it doesn't take that much energy to keep it there. Actually, energy-wise, this is actually probably using less water and energy than filling and using a jacuzzi tub in the bathroom on a regular basis.

And I will warn you - they are not cheap. At all. But there are deals to be had these days, to be sure. And remember, this is a major investment, which should last for quite a few years. Our first one lasted for over 15 years, and honestly it was the outside wood shell decaying that was the problem - the interior seating areas were still more than fine. So if you amortize the cost, it's not as bad as it might sound at first.

Claypa, thanks for filling in on the electrical info - that is not my area of expertise, and my husband wasn't home to ask!

And finally, you are more than welcome to come over to check out the spa if you think it would help. I can also point you to dealers in the area. I promise I'm not trying to sell one brand over another, just sharing what I know about a particular product.

And wishing it wasn't so frigid here - all this talk has me wanting to soak... ;-)

Barb

Barb: But lucky you -- you CAN go soak! Go for it!

Our deck is 4x4s 4' on center, with double crossed 2x6s bolted not nailed or screwed, with 5/4 bull-nose decking which was originally nailed. It would hold a Peterbilt. A dedicated line of at least agw 12/2 with ground (depending on distance) would be needed for the newer tubs. Most have GFI's built in, so a dryer service would probably be ideal. Setting up on a flag patio would be easier if you replaced a few stones with concrete post holes extending below frost line to increase stability, but may not be necessary because it has it's own heat source and insulation. I will keep mine forever! All my components are mechanical and fairly easy to replace. No chips or electronics. Ours is only a 110 volt unit and very efficent. I believe the water is probably close to 2 years old. It takes a cartridge filter of which I have a spare and clean in muriatic acid when I change it out. I also added a charcoal filter to absorb odors and I even reactivate the charcoal by baking it. The only chemical I use is Clorox, a cup or so at each use. We do use Epsom's salt and sea salt, probably 4#s and 2#s respectively. I do treat all the fiberglass surfaces with a uhf blocker about twice a year. Ric
When Ric says the water is two years old what he means is we haven't completely drained in close to two years. Something we usually do every year but didn't for some reason last summer. But you do get evaporation and fresh is added periodically.

Ric and Holly: A million thanks again. (I can't wait for the swap your have said you may host -- so many things I want to see for myself -- the potting shed, hot tub, etc., etc.)

My husband has actually bought in to this crazy idea, so it is one stop closer to happening!

I read on one site on-line that it is not recommended to place hot tubs on anything but a concrete slab because otherwise the ground underneath is likely to settle unevenly. I HATE the idea of a concrete slab -- we already have one I want to jackhammer left over from a hideous sunporch we are tearing out. So that is my next challenge. Plus that nasty little matter of price.

A slab 4" x 7' x 7'= .6 cubic yards, or 27 80# bags @ $5 ea... $150 plus gravel, prep and labor...lots of labor for us, but a small job as they go. A pad could probably be thinner than 4", I don't know... 3" x 6' x 6'= .33 cu. yds, about half as much. The labor is the most costly part.

I suppose that I should be thinking that I don't care about the concrete slab, because I won't see it under the hot tub and the hot tub will be there forever. I don't have the right mental orientation for this project. I'm imagining moving the hot tub an inch this way, a foot that way -- I don't have my hands around the fact that it would be a permanent addition. And it just seems so ugly. And I've never made anything from concrete before -- I guess there is a first time!

You said it yourself -- you'll never see the slab once the hot tub is on it. :-)

Happy,

Re: soaking tonight... having done that when we were brand-new spa owners, who soaked every night, no matter what, just because we could , I can tell you that we now have temperature limits (and wind limits in low temps!) One time, and I know the temperature wasn't nearly as low as it is right now (below 10!!!) we were sitting out there, and in the hot, steaming water, my hair gets wet, which is not a problem. However, that night, it literally froze to the outside of the tub! I'm not making this up. Then there is also the issue of when you get OUT of the tub on a frigid night, you need to be really, really careful about your (wet) feet or flip flops or whatever, not icing up and slipping on the deck.

I'm just sayin... ;-> .................Barb

Ric's deck sounds seriously stable! So there are all sorts of options, and Claypa's figures for concrete are probably very correct - I don't recall the cost for that, but it was really very nominal, and as he said, the labor for THEM was nothing compared what it would have been for us to try to do it ourselves. Our slab is 8' x 8', and probably about 4". Oddly the older spa was a bit larger, and completely square. The new one is slightly rectangular, but still fits nicely on the slab with room to spare, again for access to both sides for cover lifting and cleaning those pesky leaves, twigs and poplar seed things away.

Unless you are siting yours like we had to (next to a brick wall and a fence, with a deck around it), you could definitely never have to "see" the slab. But it's really not too obtrusive. The photo I posted probably looks pretty bare and sterile, but it was right after everything had been installed, and I hadn't moved the plants and chairs back onto the deck yet.

And you are right - you will NOT be moving the hot tub around on a whim. With the hard-wired power, that's just not possible, not to mention the weight of the tub, even when empty.

How did we get off on this hot tub tangent?????????? ;-)

Am I ever grateful we are OT. Plus, it was my topic in the first place to go off-topic on!

OT is my way of life!!! Plus it is really fun to be talking about hot bubbling water on freezing days! ;-)

Barb

Couldn't agree with you more. Instead, I'm paying bills. Ugh.