Ipomoea purpurea X Ipomoea nil

I thought I would start a thread about crossing I. pupureas with I. nils. I remember vaguely that someone else was trying to do this too. (Sorry. I forget who it was.)

I was blessed to have some light colored seeds of I. nil shared with me this year. Which is exactly what I was needing to try this experiment. Both Mutant Blue Needle Leaf Nanding (MBNLN) and Blue Asago Willow (BAW) are I. nil vines. Both have light tan seeds.

I am growing out a Purple Flaked (PF) I. purpurea vine. Not sure of the actual ID on this vine, but the blooms are stunning!

I've been cross-pollinating the blooms of PF by hand with some of the MBNLN and BAW pollen. I collected the first two ripe seed pods from the vine today. Inside one pod was 2 dark (almost black seeds). Typical seed color for this I. purpurea. But in the other pod were 2 lighter seeds. This pod was fully ripe. So ... maybe, just may be ... a cross!!! At least that is my hope. I am going to be growing one of the lighter seeds out this winter and will save the other for Spring. :-)

I am going to have my dh rig up a shelf in my front bedroom window to attempt to grow MGs during the winter months. :-) Y'all convinced me that I should give it a go! What better vine to grow than a possible cross of I. purpurea X I. nil. :-)

So ... I figured I would start a thread about this topic. If you are also doing something similar, feel free to post your information here, too. (Or of course, you can start your own thread.)

I am very interested in doing this because the I. purpurea vines seem resistant to rust fungus which is a major problem here in Florida because of the humidity and rain. I would love to somehow create a cross between these two species that is rust resistant, but also produces some larger blooms or something really unique in the bloom color/pattern for I. purpurea. I am doing the experiment both ways, but so far have not had any pods ripen on the MBNLN and BAW vines. I am really curious as to what an I. nil pod and an I. purpurea pod will produce with such a cross. :-) I am interested to see what characteristics dominate both ways. So I have my fingers crossed that the I. nil vines will produce some dark seeds as well. :-)

Here are some of the seed pods (not yet ripe) on the Purple Flaked NOID I. purpurea vine.

And here is what the seeds look like.

Closer view of the seeds. You can see the color difference in the photo.

Now I know that it IS possible that the PF is throwing a lighter seed and it is may not be a cross. But ... it just very well might be!! :-)

And an even closer photo. LOL!

Seeds look healthy and they are fresh, so I will be starting the one seed within the next day or two. Wish me luck!

Here is a what the Purple Flaked I. purpurea blooms look like. Nice colors and lots of variable patterns. :-) Small blooms.

This is what Mutant Blue Needle Leaf Nanding vine looks like.

Blue Asago Willow vine and blooms.

The blooms on the two I. nils are not huge blooms, but more in the 4" range. The I. purpurea is more like 3" range. The colors and patterns of each vine blooms are distinct and different from each other, so there is no telling what the vines or blooms will look like. Should be very interesting if I did indeed get a cross. :-) I have my fingers crossed! LOL! Stay tuned ...

Here is the Purple Flaked starter vine (September 2008) which I have under a folder titled Shiro Murasaki Shibori. I believe someone here on the forum gave me that name as an ID?

becky I can't wait to see the results! I have enough seeds which Ron and you ID for me, have some growing and up already, could I cross the pink with the blue to see if it comes to a purple or lavender? Just curious..

Becky - Have you have any light seeded purpurea growing on your property that could have fertilized the flaked purp (?)

I haven't seen any light seeded forms for the Ipomoea purpurea flaked strains yet,so you might have something interesting anyway...interesting to me at least...

Be sure to post cotyledons of any of the light seeds that germinate...

Interesting...

TTY,...

Ron

P.S. - The Shiro Murasaki is just another marketing name for the purple flaked...as I had answered you previously in the posts here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5685990
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5689711

Thanks for the info Ron. No other I. purpureas with light colored seeds that I know of in my yard. I have very few I. purpureas even growing in my yard. Most everything is I. nils. (I've honestly never seen a light colored I. purpurea seed.) Just curious, which I. purpurea cultivars have tan or brown seeds?

I can't grow the seed until I get my dh to build the shelf for the window. Hopefully this week ...

Debra - You can try crossing by hand-pollinating any MGs. Whether the attempted pollination fertilizes the bloom is a chance. Some species of MGs will not cross with other species. But you can usually cross same species with each other with often good results. And I. purpurea crossed with an I. nil is not easy to do from what I understand because you are crossing between species. But it is possible. Which is what I am trying to do ...

For me , the ip. purpurea is Shiro Murasaki Shibori Kongo from Joseph. ( see photo )

Becky - beautifull mix pic .

Perhaps this little program who can make so remarkable picture can show you what for a face will have the BaBy.

I hope it will be like the purpurea but larger .
Dany

I find something on Yoshuiaki Yoneda pages
It's an interspecific hybrid : ipomoea nil X ipomoea purpurea Flaked no more precision !

Hi Becky,
Congratulations and Good Job there.. I don't have anything this year, but wanted to let you know that I have gotten some black seeds off one of the I. nils this year which started off as light tan seeds. Only two pods this year, the other pod had tan seeds and I don't know if it crossed with anything.

Then, the other thing I wanted to tell you is that I have a very small white flowered I. purpurea that has white/tan seeds. I don't know if I took a photo of it, I most likely did and but to research as to what it came to me as and what name the photo is under, some of these come as mixes, so don't have a name.

Good to see you trying to do this, I am anxious to try some crossings in the coming year.


Look forward to your photos.

A.

Dany - Are your blooms "blue" or "purple" flaked? Mine are actually a deep purple flaked. Pretty blooms on your vine! :-) These flaked I. purpurea are my favorite I. purpurea because of that flaked trait. Really striking blooms!!!

I have seen Yoneda pages about crossing I. nil and I. purpurea which is why I knew it was possible.

I made an interesting discovery yesterday. I am combating rust fungus again because of the humidity in Florida. Many of the leaves on the MBNLN vine were dead leaves hanging off the vine. I think the vine is expiring. So I went to remove the mass of dead leaves and found a lot of ripe seed pods. Collected all of them. Now here is the interesting part ... when I opened all the seed pods, there were only dark seeds. I have this vine labeled as a MBNLN x Jishi. Apparently the Jishi dark seedcoat is a dominate trait. So ... that narrows down what vine the PF seeds may have been crossed with. It is now my belief that it is most likely BAW, not MBNLN like I thought. And that makes sense because I had more blooms on BAW than on MBNLN when I was doing the hand-pollinating. So some of my assumptions at the beginning of this thread are wrong.

I will be growing one of the seeds out starting this week. Because I have never grown them indoors before, I didn't want to try both seeds in case I blow it with the indoor sowing and growing.

What does surprise me is that one of the very first seed pods on PF had odd colored seeds. So that makes me wonder how many more seeds I will get on the PF that might also show a possibility of a cross? Maybe a lot, maybe a little, maybe none ... but I am very surprised that I got any! I don't clip the anthers before crossing. I leave it up to mother nature and the fertilization lotto. But it could be too that some of my vines don't produce pollen at times and maybe this vine wasn't producing pollen with the first few blooms. I have had I. purpureas do that at the beginning of it's bloom cycle.

That is one of the reason I like the Youjiro gene from my vines. Most don't produce pollen, so it is very easy to cross that particular I. nil with any other I. nil. Maybe I should've tried crossing that one with this PF purpurea. :-) Though both cultivars have dark seeds.

The reason I chose crossing with BAW and MBNLN is because the seeds of those vines are usually light tan, Which could produce seeds that are lighter. Which makes it much easier to discern which seeds might be a cross. I don't want to have to grow out a hundred seeds with the hopes that one might prove to be a cross. So the lighter seed is a good indicator that it could be a cross. I'm trying to make it easier to sort through the seeds to determine which ones are worth growing out that might produce a cross. Does that make sense?

Many of you may want to get some of the BAW and MBNLN seeds from me and try the same thing. Though I can't promise that the seeds from any grow-outs will be tan. I knew that the MBNLN didn't come true because the blooms looked like the Jishi. But I was hoping that the seeds would still carry the lighter seedcoat color.

So fascinating ...

This message was edited Nov 17, 2008 4:28 PM

My Shibori Kongo is dark blue , i have an other Shibori but purple.
see photo

Dany - Your Shibori posted above looks similar to one of mine. Look at the bloom in the lower left hand corner of the collage. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=5797216 Yours has a much more pronounced pink throat, but the flakes and stripes look very much like mine. :-) Do you have a name for this Shibori?

You are doing a lot of work with the MGs.. it is so enjoyable to see the flowers. I've been busy in crafts, so, it will be a few months before I start anything. That Shibori, isn't that a purpurea? I had a similar one two years ago.

Antoinette - Yes! The Shibori is an I. purpurea. I'm really wanting to get a cross of an I. purpurea with an I. nil. Mainly to get a nice blooming vine that is possibly resistant to rust fungus. That is the whole reason for my attempt to cross these two species of MGs. If I can get a cross, then I am hoping I can try other I. nils to get larger blooms on a vine that doesn't get attacked by rust. I am thinking that the vines need to have the heart shaped leaves to be resistant to rust. Or at least that is my theory. It's going to be trial and error ... with eventual success I hope! LOL! We'll see ...

Antoinette - Do you have enough tan I. purpurea seeds to share a couple with me? I want to grow the vine out and try to cross it with some dark seeds of I. nil. That's really cool that there are I. purpurea with tan seeds! I didn't know of any!!

Has there been any documentation of crossing tricolor species with either I. purpurea or I. nil on any website from Japan or anywhere else?

Hi Becky, yes, I got plenty seeds, I just haven't found the photo yet.. will send you some most likely at the end of the week, i go to town for class on Fridays and will drop them off at the PO.. I also will include the ones I had ready for you.
A.


P>S. forgot to say they are from 2007, but they should still be good.

This message was edited Nov 17, 2008 6:15 PM

Becky I am so excited to see your efforts rewarded with beautiful blooms.. keep posting! Debra

I found a couple of photos.

one more

Antoinette - THANK YOU! That is awesome! I will be sending out a bubble envie of seeds from my grow-outs to you after Thanksgiving. I hope to have collected seeds from my current grow-out by then. :-)

Antoinette - Interesting looking little white blooms. Did you find a name for this I. purpurea vine? White is always a good color to try to cross with. :-) Tan seeds work for me! :-)

Yes, the seed came from Dee (Komeri) as a Henka mix, there were two other black seeds. I believe that one bloomed gray if I remember correctly, but it didn't have seeds that I remember and don't remember if the other seed came up at all.

Becky to give a name , perhaps the second year .
They are pure because they grow alone in container, they open purple colour . Next year I will make more selection to obtain more and more the real shibori purple like we use to see in the Japanese collections.

ip. purprurea " Sydney " has more than tan coloring seeds .
There is an other hybrid very usefull ( purpurea - nil ) : YOUJIRO YAGURUMA.
Is he resistant to rust.

Antoinette - one of your picture is in the Plantfiles in the Joyce Cobb MG . Is it the Red Joyce Cobb flower or the pic was taken in the afternoon ?

Dany

Dany - You mentioned>

"My Shibori Kongo is dark blue "

Kongo means 'mix' in Romaji...so whenever you see that word 'kongo' it means an 'ostensible' mix of seeds...

So,you may have a dark flaked purpurea that came out of a mix...

Becky - Ipomoea tricolor has not been inter-specifically crossed with any other species,but you may get lucky and be the First (!)...


TTY,...


Ron

I have been mixing the abundant pollen of my Blue Star with some different I. nil vines in my yard. None of the other vines are producing their own pollen at this time. So far, none have taken. :-( But I will keep trying. I think the season for growing MGs is over for me here. Weather has been quite cool. MGs are on their way out ...

I know this question has been answered many times, but ...

Do the seed pods remain viable as long as there isn't an actual frost/freeze in the 30's? And will the seed pods continue to develop even if there are no leaves on the vine. All my vines except tri-color and Moonflower are looking pretty bad right now. Might attempt to cross those two! LOL! Too cold at night and the leaves are wilting. Down in the 50's and with the humidity makes it seem even colder. (I know ... some of you have snow and THAT IS COLD! LOL! But right now it is cold for Florida!)

I will continue to collect seeds from the PF vine. It looks pretty wilted from the lower temps. Seed pods have not produced any other lighter seeds so far. Been checking daily.

Hi Dany, the flower was on the same plant and yes it was in the afternoon.

Becky, Have you noticed the color change on yours?

The vines should still produce seeds if left out there, I believe if it gets into the 30's, the pods will freeze, if you know you are getting a freeze, take an old blanket and cover the plant for the night, then uncover during the day so it can get some sun to dry. I pulled out a whole wild purpurea plant about two months ago that was blooming in a field and stuck that whole thing wound up in a circle, like you would wind up an extension cord, tied it and just put the roots into water. All the pods dried and it even bloomed some more for a couple of weeks. It did not take up too much space and I got the seeds. You may be able to do that if they are wound on something like a bamboo stick that you can just slide off. That way you can cover a whole section at a time.. It sure won't look PRETTY though.

a.

Becky . . .

When I send your seeds to you, I'll also send you some SOLID WHITE Ipomoea purpurea seeds. In fact, I have them from two different strains. One I grew last year and another from this year. Both Pure Solid White.

When you know you are going to get your first frost, you might want to move any pots you have into your garage or anywhere that doesn't freeze until you get all of your seeds. A freeze will zap your pods for sure. I'm sure there are many threads here about what to do with your vines when it freezes. If they are in the ground, just rip them out and lay them on anything but plastic. Newspaper works great so it is easier to clean up the mess after the pods mature. I have ripped out many vines over the years, even I. nils, just before a frost and they always continue to mature with or without water. You can also take an old towel that you can wet down and wrap around your roots too while you are waiting for the seeds.

Emma



Here is the Solid White purp that I have growing this year. Should be getting seeds from it any day now

Close up of Solid White Ipomoea purpurea

wow Emma those whites are gorgeous!

Thank you Debra. . .

They really are very pretty.

If you want to wait a couple or so weeks on your Yellows, I'll be happy to send you some Whites as well.
I was going to get your Yellows in the mail before Monday and I'm not sure the Solid White seeds will be ready by then. I'm trying to get as much of my seeds out as I can so I can concentrate on going to SUNNY MEXICO the end of next week. YeeHaw!!!!

Emma

The solid white purpurea is truly a beauty, Emma. Wow!

Joseph

emma, I can wait.. we have all inter.. by all means enjoy your vacation.. and come and pick me up on the way will ya? Blowing cold winds here..down to 24 brrrrrrrrrr

Emma - Your whites are beautiful!!! What color are the seeds? Are they lighter such as tan or brown? I would love to have a few seeds from them! Thanks for offering !! :-)

I don't know if we will get a freeze here this soon or not. But it IS cold at night. Daytime is beautiful high 60s - low 70s. :-) Unfortunately, my vines don't like the cold nights.

So I only need to worry about the temps if it goes to 32 degrees or lower? The seed pods will be okay if the temps are higher than that?

This message was edited Nov 20, 2008 12:58 PM

Thank you Joseph -

Debra, that is too c-c-c-c-cold!

Becky, my White purp has the normal colored Dark Brown seeds.
I have had several purps over the years that has Creamy-White to Tan colored seeds, but these do not.
Our temps are about what yours are too.
Yes, the pods will be ok as long as it does not freeze. When you know you are getting a freeze or frost, just remove all of your vines or you will risk losing your seeds. You can also cut parts of the vines away, if you only have a few pods left, and stick those in a glass jar with water until they mature.

Emma

Thanks Emma!!!

I have cut my vines and stuck them in water to get the seeds to maturity. So I know it is not a big deal to do that. I just wasn't sure what temperature to pull them up to save them from being destroyed by cold temps. I don't expect freezing temps until January or February. (Though it has gotten to freezing here earlier.) Most all of my vines are done. Just waiting on the seed pods to ripen. I did not get as many seed pods from the current grow-out because the cooler temps slowed the vine growth. But I got seeds from most of the vines. (I did not get seeds from Dai and a couple other vines.) :-( But I have a couple more seeds of Dai left to grow out again ... possibly in the Spring.

So if there are folks here who were wanting seeds from a particular cultivar and I didn't get seeds from this current grow-out, I will grow it again in the Spring to get seeds to share.

I hope to get my window shelf made this weekend and start some seeds in small pots.

Can someone point me in a direction on how to create those circular vine supports like the Japanese use for their festival displays? I need to keep the support compact since I will have the vines growing indoors.

Thanks so much!