I understand that the sherriff that took my call told me he did not know anything about horses. OK I can accept that. But when he called me back this evening, he said he could not help me cause it was my word against her. I am a cowgirl, been one for years, and I know if you sell a horse that is regestered with any breed association the papers go with the horse. Arizona did away with a hauling card in 2003 which in my opnion was an secondary form of ownership. In my home here is the papers that regestered her with American Paint Horse Association(APHA). In non horse terms, it is like a title to a car. So when I asked him if you gave away a car would you not transfer a title with it? he said yes. I said I had the title to that horse. He still stated there was nothing he could do but I could call the livestock/brand inspector on Monday and see what they would do... YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY I WILL is what I told him. I went to a roping tonight where I was told by a few horse people that was totally wrong and it was sad that the papers we all own on our horses are not worth the paper it is printed on. They told me to call the Livestock/brand inspector in Flagstaff so there is no conflict of intrest incase the one in Mohave County is a friend of hers. My frustration is that I own that horse, have the papers to prove it and the sherriff would not help. I will not give up, no matter how long it takes.
Nice to know that the papers I have on my BLM Mustang is not worth anything and that any one may come on my ranch and take my horse since it is my word instead of thiers... Sorry to vent, but this is Horse Dung.
Thanks for reading and for everyones support...
Roseane
PS got two chicken eggs tonight... there is some good news in my life...
Horse Missing in the Phoenix Az Area
Roseane,
I'm sure that horses may fall into a separate category when they are registered, very valuable and insured, such as race horses, racing greyhounds, etc. but......
Generally animals, pets have been considered "personal property" and when one is stolen, a value is put on it which is the determining factor of how much the law will be involved in the prosecution of the theft.
A few years ago a burglar broke into a pet store from the roof a/c and stole a Hyacinth Macaw. (Way down south in Fla). That bird was valued at $10,000 and the law called it grand theft. They were inspired by that number to search out the thief for prosecution. There was also a microchip in that bird that proved ownership, but could only be read if the bird was found and scanned.
We are in horse country over here in North Central Florida so, many people have horses for racing, breeding and for pleasure. Many also have horses they cannot afford to feed and the law here doesn't place much importance on watching a horse standing starving in a stripped pasture. My neighbor and my boss both have "rescued" horses that were simply given to them for reasons such as these.
Let's see, my point is, if we didn't have cars to provide us with our transportation and we still depended on horses for our living, the attitudes of the law would be much different. It has become a real sad state of affairs.
I sure hope with all the efforts of our DG "Family" you will have success in finding Miss Jest'r. The people here have worked wonders on many "SOS" calls throughout the country. I know you must miss her terribly.
Molly
Roseanne,
Have you tried this site http://www.netposse.com/Auctions/auctions_AZ.htm ? They deal with stolen horses in Arizona.
read this one too http://www.flealess.org/lostpets/horses.html
http://artmam.net/Horse_Back_Riding-4.htm
http://www.equinerescue.info/lists.html
http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47001645
http://www.pillion.com/stolen01.html
http://www.auditorgen.state.az.us/Reports/State_Agencies/Agencies/Agriculture,%20Department%20of/Performance/00-8/00-8execsumm.htm
this page in the second paragraph says AZ requires horses be registered and that registration is proof of ownership. Maybe you need to deal with your local DA's office or your state Attorney General. The Sheriff just may not want to spend the time and manpower on this. Another thing is when dealing with the law don't bother referring to your horse as a pet or the fact that you love him. Instead he is valuable livestock worth X amount of dollars. As a pet you will not get you the help you need in finding him. As valuable property you should get assistance. Leave the sentimental side out of it. Keep stressing that she stole your property and you want charges filed. Pull out all vet bills you can find too to support your case as the owner.
Seems like it's a racket so you need to send the word out to all surrounding states too
MollyD
ye sRoseanne, that is a racket, you need to go over his head. i smell some sad sob story, pile of lies and poo, that she told him to make him believe her over you. i have been in this situation where it is your word agaisnt theirs and they have already discredtied you. PRESS ON! MAKE NOISE! DON'T STOP!
I POSTED ON OUR CRAIGLIST COMMUNITY HERE AS WELL.
It sounds like your sheriff went to the same "School of It's Not My Job" as TF's.
yeah and I bet if this horse were HIS property it would already be home!!
here they use the excuse of Texas law being so cmplicated. i.e. we will read THIS part, but not THAT part...
Oh I have issues with them types of people. Its not my job, what do you want me to do about it and so on. I had a young deputy try and tell me how to raise my 15 yr old daughter he was all of 23 and the only training they need is to be cleet certified, no schooling as such. I looked at him while he was standing in MY house and told him, when and only when you have been in my shoes will you tell me how to raise her. He left my house and sent another officer in.
Then about a month later my oldest daughter her bf at the time and my youngest son were at the 2 older ones grad. party and the police was called and they were all told to call their parents, well they said they tried to call but they didnt and then the officer asked for my name they told them and he said never mind, if she comes out here I will throw her A&& in jail. He hated me and the feeling were the same for him. I never had an encounter with him again, I would ask they not send him out when I needed them.
not to get off the subject but one time my husband had his car stolen in Detroit right in front of the front door of his friends bump shop...4 months later his friend called him and said someone came in and asked him if we wanted to "buy" our stolen car back ha,ha yeah right...long story short the car was right down the next street parked directly behind someones house and we called the police they came out and asked ME all of 125 lbs and 5 foot to go knock on the front door and get someone out of the house....I bet you can guess what I told him!!! None of them want to do there jobs...we flagged down a tow truck and took our car back.
So maybe if you can locate her...you'll have to just take what is yours since you have the papers to provide ownership.
This is so ridiculous they should be doing something. I bet if you contacted your local paper or news station you might get some action. I would at least threaten it.
luvs2garden2000
thats a really good idea...she did that out of the kindness of her heart for that child the media loves stories like that...maybe she may know someone at the local paper?
Hopefully someone will call a reporter...
I know when we had problems with the powers to be around here we would say dont make me go to Brad Edwards. He was our "In you corner" man. He got things handled.
Could you take her to small claims court? You might find out more info on where she took your horse. I'd go ask her neighbors too about the horse and her too for info to take to court. They might know something. I bet a few do not like her if she is so dishonest. Good luck!
Since she has a foster child you might speak to them about her. She's obviously not a person who is a good influence on a child. But ask your attorney first since in some states defamation has a different definition than in others.
I think a horse is worth more than small claims court handles. What is the limit in AZ and what is the value of the horse?
MollyD
That deputy obviously talked to her. He couldn't get her to tell him who she "gave" the horse to? And don't you have a witness? That makes it NOT your word against hers. Call the DA and ask who handles animal cases.
Call CPS, and do it now. If this woman has a foster child, and this is the example of behavior she is providing, the child needs to be removed. What other illegal activities might she be participating in? Make sure you ask them that question. Make sure you express concern for the welfare of the child; by state law they MUST investigate it. Their concern won't be your horse, but the issue will be a sidelight, and should direct some attention towards him.
There is also the chance that the foster child story is a lie, in which case you will have more data backing up your story.
Which sheriff did you call? Mohave or Maricopa? Joe Arpaio if VERY big on animals. Since the crime occurred in Maricopa County I think that is who you need to contact. Theoretically, taking the horse to Phoenix wasn't the theft--it was giving away/selling the horse that was.
Suze, in Tempe, AZ
Could be filed in either county, I should think. I've heard of Sheriff Arpaio -- he put the prisoners in an unairconditioned jail and put animal victims in the airconditioned cells. My kind of sheriff!
Good Man!!!
MollyD
I have written down the websites thanks a bunch. I am on netposse, dreamhorse, craigslist and 911pets, I will join the others tonight. I thank all of you for everything you have done, AND I WILL FIGHT until I CAN NOT FIGHT ANY LONGER.
I have argued many of the arguements and when I talked to the brand inspector, he said if I could take her to court then that would compel her to tell who she gave her to.
I have hit another snag or sorts, I was told that Yes my bill of sale does prove I own her, but if I had a hauling card, that would seal it. Since I dont and if I was lucky to find her, the brand inspector would seize her until an ownership hearing was established. I have already in my hand 4 signed and notorized affidavids from people stating I owned that horse, that would help in that case.
This is the latest in Arizona about hauling cards, but back in 2003 they made them voluntary and there are alot of horse people that did not get them, now I am in the process of getting them for my other 3, and you will see why the registration papers are not doing me any good. This is from the state statues.
For the equine owner who owns a "grade" animal (horse, mule or donkey), the yellow card represents their sole proof of ownership. They cannot fall back on the registration papers of a specific breed to help establish their ownership claim. Even then, breed papers can be falsified.
SO if you are reading this and own a horse in Arizona, please get the voluntary hauling card for proof you own that horse.
Roseane
keep fighting, don't wait for a court date. she oculd be long gone by then....
i will keep putting hte word out for you...
oops I forgot to add this part as well....
Some groups believe that the genotyping required by their breed registry negates the need for an ownership certificate issued by the state. Breed registry genotyping indicates the gene pool of the sire and dam of the animal, it is not a document with legal authority to investigate locally, arrest or confiscate.
That is one messy State! Have you tried the politicians and the newspapers?
MollyD
My next hope is 3 on your side in Phoenix, it is a news channel.
I hope no one ever has to go thru this....
I have applied for hauling cards for the other three horses I have, and on a side note, since my geilding is out of that mare and the mare is not in my barn, I need to now have an inspection... THAT is dung....Atleast the studs owner is my brother and is willing to sign papres, he already has on my mare Jest'r
Call Don Imus. He would take this national! He grew up in Arizona near Kingman.
imusonair@gmail.com
He has a big heart for horses and usually will take a stand for someone wronged and ignored by the law. Idiotic behavior on the sheriffs part. You probably know Imus is rather controversial but is on RFD-TV.
I owed a great quarter horse that was stolen at age 5 at a rodeo in Texas and found 2 years later several thousand miles away from his rightful owner at another rodeo. He was recognized by a cowboy who called the owner and then a local sheriff who then had several people verify that this was indeed a stolen red roan from Oklahoma. No papers, just the truth. Photographs where mailed to verify the horse's id. The horse was returned to his rightful owner in Okla where I bought him when he was 8. Horse theft is horse theft. Back in those days there was just word of mouth about horse theft, but it was take seriously by anyone out west. The thief got caught and jailed. Best of luck, this is too sad. Patti
OMG! I'm ANGRY! I would not settle for no answer from her. Ask her kid, ask her neighbors and acquaintances. Steal her dog, lol.
I know it's no help for MissJest'r, but maybe for the future. As well as whatever documents you need locally to prove ownership, I'd suggest microchipping your critters. Although it's more common in small animals, it is entirely possible to microchip a horse. It isn't expensive (comparatively) and is pretty indisputable (and unremovable) proof of ownership.
We're having our two livestock guardian dogs done with chips. We were told it would run under $30. per dog and as catmad says it's absolute proof that this is the animal we own. I know they can microchip parrots so no reason a horse couldn't be.
MollyD
each year our kennel club does a chip-clinic for a $10 donation.. your choice if you choose to registar your chip.. but you are given the chip #.. registering the chip is an additional $30. some companies charge a yearly fee.. but worth it.. all my dogs & cats are done.. but nothing else..
I guess I would have horses and any other large or expensive livestock done. ie, alpaca..
Btw, too furious to post but I AM with you...
furious?????? ut oh whats wrong.
Who are you furious at grownut ?
MollyD
The horse situation -been reading it the whole time and it blows my mind!! Good to see the DG posse out after that thievin' fool woman though.
Amen to that!
Everyone,
With all the cattle rustling that happens .... makes one wonder why all large livestock are not loaded with these microchips? Kinda odd decision given the dollars at risk. I might not do sheep but small time cattle ranchers ought to do so if they're not already full time babysitting the meat on the hoof. Most cattle represent about $500-1k standing there.
Kelly in Moxee
Kelly some sheep and goats exceed those amounts! I've heard of Boer bucks going for over 10K and not even ennobled ones at that. One ennobled buck went for 35K.
MollyD
Molly,
Certainly there are extreme cases and one would expect them to be chipped. Boers here that are pedigreed or just with "known bloodlines ... 87.5% or more" generally go for $65-100. I have 4-5 neighbors within a mile with Boer goats. I'm well acquainted with the indivdual in our state with the most respected bloodline. She lives a 1/4 mile from my sister. She shows all over Washington, Oregon and Idaho keeping less than 40 adult head year round but her young billys & does sell as top breeding stock in the Pacific NW states ... never for food at about $200 for young bucks and $100 for young does. She has people drive from all over to buy them and her 25 nannies can't birth them fast enough.
Kelly
Around here people don't want full stock Boers. They tend to have too many health problems so they cross breed them. Don't have any goats myself but I know lots of folks around who do. the goats do well on the steep mountainsides here.
Kelly around here those prices (65-100) would buy you a goat at death's door! I have several Boers and none cost less than $250. My buck cost $500.
CajuninKy don't know what problems are being experienced in your area but here pure Boer are preferred and they're perfectly healthy robust stock. Conditions do vary from place to place so I can't answer for what is seen out your way. I know they're well liked in Texas.
MollyD
Same here and we're straight south of L'ville. Interesting.
I don't know any particulars. Just what all the "goat" people in the area talk about. They don't have much good luck with the full stock Boers. They say they die pretty often so they all cross them up. Most with milkers, I think. I guess it gives them a more all around animal. Milk and meat. Boers are sure good looking goats.