What's the Argument Against Non-Organic Fertilizer?

I do believe in organic gardening, but some of the "facts" I have read challenges the credibility. And while there is more to growning plants than npk, nitrite really IS nitrite. To claim a molecule is differant because it's not organic is silly. The matrix it's in may be differant but the molecule is the same, or it would be a differant molecule.

I believe that the man made nitrates are all salts and that they contain absolutely no biological content. Whereas the man made chemical is not biodegradable it simply not a biodegradable element. It remains a manufactrued chemical. It goes downsteam as a poison. This is the whole issue no longer being debated. One is a biocide the other is made up of soil building elements.
The arguement only comes fromt the major chemical producing companies. Their chemicals reduce the biology of the soil. The organic contents are literally burned out by those chemicals.
The man made gross growth exciter produces its fruit in much measured poorer qualtiy. The soil building process produces larger and better quality garden products.

It is not unusual that someone would profess that the above is not the absolute truth. The poisons continue to be dumpped on lawns, gardens and farms. Those lawns, gardens and farms lose biological structure in every instance. There is no trade off'.

It is now utterly amazing that farms are trading off nitrate units or applications. If you do not have need for all your man made fertilizers you can give it to your neighbor. That brings us right back to the poison applications of manufactured chemical fertilizer.....square one promoted and presently a won position by the large chemical companies. They are even trading off manure units from areas like daries and pig farms. While over use of any fertilizer including organic can bring about a negative soil adjustment.....it is much less likely to be an issue in the organic use of the same.

Nitrate might be nitrate but plants need other things to thrive, too- microneutrients. Most chemicals don't supply them, or very few of them according to labels I've read, while organics supply a more complete buffet. We strive to feed the soil, not the plant, and the rewards are many. My garden has undergone wonderful changes since I changed to organics- my clay soil has, for the most part, turned from tan to black and is crawling with worms. I didn't see these things in the approximately 20 years that I used chemical ferts and pesticides.
http://www.indoor-gardening-guide.com/articles/plant-care/Plant-Nutrient-Primary-secondary-and-micro-nutrients.html

While the diet we feed our plants is a large part of organics, it's an incomplete summary of organic practices. We also avoid pesticides. What's causing the disappearance of honeybees? Scientists still don't know. Is it pesticide use? Is it an insect disease? Mite infestation? Have chemical ferts and pesticides of the 20th century contributed to these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6438373.stm

Unlike paraclesus, I'm happy to see the "other side" following and posting to this forum. As long as we don't go overboard, or become rude to one another and toss around insults, exchange of ideas is good. Since I made no attempt at organics until about 5 years ago I think I do understand what the chemical folks are saying, understand their reasoning.

Thanks, greatorganics, for those links. Because I rarely watch TV, I had no idea there was a channel called planetgreen. I turned it on for a little while and saw part of a cute, interesting show. I will check it out occasionally. I'll show you some of those "stunted organic flowers" you mentioned.

Karen

Even chemical fertilizer is not pure nitrate nitrogen. Only a part of the composition is nitrate nitrogen. This is the water soluble form that is available to the plant immediately, works well even with cold soil temperatures but it is also easily washed out of the soil.
The second type of nitrogen is ammoniacal nitrogen, also water soluble but only partially available to the plant without microbial action. Microorganisms work best with warm soil temperatures. One plus with microbial action, as the microorganisms convert the ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen, they acidify the soil.
Urea nitrogen may also be labeled as water soluble organic nitrogen, is not "organic" in the sense of organic gardening but simply means that the compound contains carbon. Urea is water soluble, but is not readily available to the plant without being first converted to ammoniacal nitrogen then to nitrate nitrogen, again by microbial action.
Most commercial fertilizers contain ammoniacal nitrogen and urea as the main sources of the nitrogen content. Only the "quick green" forms of lawn fertilizer contain large amounts of nitrate nitrogen.
So even if you use chemical fertilizer, you need healthy soil with the necessary microorganisms to break down the ammonical nitrogen and urea in order for the plants to use it.
Organic fertilizer, the kind organic gardeners use, is water insoluble nitrogen and must be converted by microorganisms to the nitrate form of nitrogen. This process is faster in warm weather, but the nitrogen is still released slowly and in a more consistent manner than "instant" fertilizer.

Mornin', All!

Sure has been some good discussion since I last read this thread. Good points made, excellent info.

greatorganics, WELCOME TO DG. Those are good links, I've read them in the past and they are right on the mark. (Wish I had 'modern day' TV so I could watch Plant Green though!) :>)

I, too, like hearing this exchange of idea, it's a great way to teach and open up your mind (or others.)

margocstn, you said, "I do believe in organic gardening, but some of the "facts" I have read challenges the credibility." If you could be more specific with the facts that are confusing or challenging it would be easier to offer a more definitive answer(s). As you can see the 'nitrate is nitrate' area has been covered very well; I hope that helps clear things in that area. (Thanks doc, Karen and Calalilly/Susie!)

Best,
Shoe

Actually I don't post a whole lot on this forum, because I don't often feel I have a lot to offer. I'm certainly more a a student in organics than an expert. But we all do have our opinions.

Karen

I think your post above offers quite a bit, Karen. What you've witnessed in your garden and growing is a gold mine of input. I tend to think we're all students and that students can teach, too! I'm hope you continue to share more.

Shoe, off to get some gardening/potting up done on an 80º day, very rare here in March!

I've been growing organically for about 10 years now. I don't know that I could give really good reasons for my change. Just trying to do what seems best for my garden and me according to what I read and practice. In my dry and cold in winter climate it takes a long time to make compost. Because of my health issues I am not able to lift much and therefore cannot turn the compost piles. I do have one nearly worn out turning type composter, and with that one until it rusts out I can make several batches of compost per season.

Donna

Donna, there are some metal compost turners that work well; they're like augers that you stick into the pile and twist. I got two different types for my husband to try, and both seem to do the job. Getting the compost out of the bin and into a wheelbarrow is another story, but in small increments it's doable.

In my backyard I brew up aerobic compost tea. The biological explosion and conversions that transpire when aerobic compost tea is properly made comes up with a sugested field application of one gallon per acre and more living biology than can be found in ten tons of raw manure. These are facts and numbers mentioned in several books by Dr. Elaine Ingham. I got into this in order to grow my seven hundred to one thousand pound pumpkins. The gentlemen who grow the world record pumpkins do it organically in their ground management using aerobic teas.

As an amateur biologist I have said and will repeat the above can not be done with man made chemicals. Almost all giant growers use absolute organic principles and technicues. If it were possible to do this any other way that is how they would grow their produce. Why......simply because there is a whole lot of money into growing winning world records. The last five pumpkins were consequetive world records over fourteen and fifteen hundred pounds. The last five were grown using organic principles considering soil management and foliar feeding. Two were totally organic. Three were not in that the grower used harsh sprays. Interesting! The three who were not absoutely organic have not returned to the winner's circle or numbers even close to their world record. One of the growers can not grow in his patch at all I suggest due to ruined soil by fungicides. Harsh fungicides seem to be the defeating element for the most part. Fungus quickly become monster critters and require more and different harsher chemicals which when made only last a few years and they have to do it again. Bigger and meaner fungus is the result in fact uncontrollable fungus is often the result.

I have been an organic grower for over sixty years. I have a standing offer to bet $1000.00 that my soil would test organic with the exception of that soil close to a single peach and a single apple tree. In both of these instances I am near to harsh chemical using neighbors and downstream. I doubt that immediate downstream soil would test organic.

Hi again,

I searched around and came up with a site, which helps to answer the original questions that kicked off this discussion, it is titled, "A Summary Comparison of Organic vrs. Non-organic Fertilizers." The article includes some historical information as well. http://preview.tinyurl.com/bsb4za

The site is The Garden Counselor - image that! lol

Hi Karen, Love those scrawny flowers. I am going have to post some pics of my gazillion crab apple seedlings that have come up all on their own, on the roof of my great uncles little stable. Imagine that. Nothing up there but what the tree dropped and the wind blew in. Really pretty spectacular. I would never have known, if I hadn't climbed up there to cut some branches this weekend. 100% Nature Made

I am not an expert either, just learning a little each day, which is why I joined this forum, hoping to find some experienced organic growers or someone else stumbling along like me.

Carol

.

Calalily's post was very informative. She used facts instead of emotion. That's what I was referring to in my previous post.

The post about the different types of nitrogen is helpful. So all nitrogen has to be broken down into a useable form by micro-organisms. But if it's true that chemical fertilizers often kill these organisms, the method is flawed. Am I following correctly?

I'm disappointed that none of the pro-synthetics people answered my question about how synthetic fertilizer is made and what it's made from. What's the recipe? When the fertilizer factory orders supplies, what do they order? What are the chemicals derived from?

Phosphorus fertilizer is derived from raw phosphorus sedimentary rock deposits. For chemical fertilizer sulfuric acid is used to "break" it down quickly to usuable form. Organic phosphorus often comes from the same rock only it is used raw and is slow acting over several years.

Pro-synthetics are slowly being worked over the coals. To keep the bomb factories in business the agricultural synthetics were turned out of the same plants begining in the 1920s to the present. . Now there is one huge such company that has bought up most of the smaller companies and maybe all of the big ones to.

To avoid making a mistaken comment I did not name the company. It is not but should be named Monstrosity maker of the worlds largest supply of biocides. If the tabacco companies have to label their product with serious warnings so should the harsh chemicals be named biocides.

Many many successes with the organic growing have shown up from sea to shining sea. The are producing better quality and volume on smaller farms. The techniques they use can not be used by the rip, tear and poison experts. Their way as burned out the biology and that includes the larger percentages of humus in the soil.

A magazine called Acres is a most interesting monthly or bi-monthly available here in the big box store called Tractor Supply. Most readers here I believe would enjoy an occasional read . It was there I picked up an amazing OMRI approved product called Calcium 25. If you want to see a bit of organic magic in a bottle investigate Calcium 25 . You can try it by buying the smallest bottle they have. That would keep anyone interested in the backyard gardens for quite a few years. Three years ago the smallest bottle was twenty bucks. Google will get you there.

Sorry I snapped, but I have been hearing the "chemicals is chemicals" argument against organics for 25+ years. Like none of us organic slobs have ever taken a chemistry class.

I too read and enjoyed Acres USA, although it does get a bit paranoid now and then. It's definitely inspiring.

Relevant essays by a company that sells organic fertilizers:

http://planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/fertilizer-benefits.html
http://planetnatural.com/site/fertilizer-basics.html
http://planetnatural.com/site/soil-amendments.html

Here's a load of sorry pumpkins and squash grown on sorry organic soil. The big pumpkin was just a few pounds short of 1500 lbs while setting a new world record. ROTFLMAO

Here's my best offering of neary an eight hundred pound bird bath or bean bag pattern pumpkin.............Oh yes.....grown on sorry organic soil too.

Just look at all that sorry plant material growing up and over my North half acre. Never been a bag of chemistry been dumpped here since I ran off Mr. Green Thumb or someone like him thirty five years ago. I had just bought the property and what he was spewing about stunk. He left in a gentlemanly like manor.

Guess I'll have to apologize one more time for the sorry backyard show of puny plants.

Docgipe, you are the Champ!! You sure know how to handle Mother Nature!!!
Josephine.

If "organic" people were serious about changing the way the world eats, the first thing to do would be to get the consumer prices in line. Pretty hard for Mrs. housewife on a strict budget to pay an extra $3 for a dozen eggs, just to get organic. Or 2X for a gallon of milk.
Get real, some ways of getting rich quick.
Then there is the honor system of growing organically. Are the growers really doing it the way they are supposed to be ?

I go along with organic being a good thing, but most farmers are very concerned about their soil & the environment. You don't go around paying 4 or 5 thousand dollars an acre for farm land & turn it into gravel. Farmers soil test their fields, apply only what is needed to grow the crop & keep the soil healthy.
As far as "killing" the soil, have you ever been around when someone is tilling a field ? Those hundreds of Blackbirds or Sea Gulls are not eating the fertilizer, they are picking up bugs or earthworms.
As far as I am concerned "Organic" is to one sided. Ordinary farmers don't go around preaching their way of farming is the only way, they are open to new ways.

Enough for to day!
Bernie

Oh........forgot to mention the first small fruit on that low boy load was a 200 pound watermellon. That was the nicest one man loads I have ever seen at the Pennsylvania Giant Pumpkin Growers weigh off.

The question always is.........do you eat them. No but you could. They usually sell to large garden centers for display and advertising purpose or get carved for the enjoymennt of all.

Here is a nice carving. Now I'm done sticking it in and twisting....so to speak.

Bernie............you are so far out in left field I refuse to comment. Sorry my boy but the world has passed you by.

Good heaven, those pumpkins are monsters! The last one would scare off trick-or-treaters.

Karen

CountryGardens, in regard to your question about the honor system, organic agriculture is very strictly regulated by the USDA. You can read more about it here: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateA&navID=NationalOrganicProgram&leftNav=NationalOrganicProgram&page=NOPNationalOrganicProgramHome&acct=nop In order for a farmer to label a crop as organic, the farmer has to meet very strict requirements. You can't just stamp a label on something and call it organic.

There's also an organization called the Organic Materials Review Institute www.omri.org that helps growers understand and adhere to the National Organic Program's Requirements.

As far as pricing, I can't answer that question. To avoid getting too far off topic in this thread, please start another thread with your question about pricing. I'm sure that those who are knowledgeable in that area will give you an honest, well-informed answer.

Dog,
How many people are you feeding at the present time?
I am providing many people with my vegetables at our local Farmers Market.
Our market attracts 2000 or so every Saturday plus we also operate on Tuesday & Thursday.
I did not say that I grow with or without chemicals. You took it for granted that I am a big chemical fan because I expressed my opinion.
What is the point of the big pumpkin & squash ?
Also your yard looks nice, is there anything edible there ?
We were discussing this issue at coffee this morning. There was a very nice lake in farm country that was so full of fertilizer it would only grow algae. The city council had a study done & decided to ban the use of fertilizer on lawns in the city that drained to the lake. Lo & behold the lake cleared up. They had been trying to blame the farmers & it was keeping the stupid lawns over fertilized that caused the problem.

I can answer to the pricing--join your local organic co-op. I get 100% better dairy, eggs, fruit, and vegetables at half the price I would pay for them nonorganic at the supermarket. Obviously you don't live in an area that has much of a demand for organic milk--we do here; and the prices are getting closer to nonorganic milk prices everyday in the big chain supermarkets like Kroger's and Walmart (to name just a few). Might be because the organic milk lasts 5x longer than nonorganic milk. People are not stupid--if the milk goes bad in the fridge in 5 days and they have to throw it out, they haven't saved a bit of money. Please check your sell by dates on organic and nonorganic milk--CountryGardens--you might just be surprised.

Please people, we know organic gardening works and we also know it is better for the environment than chemicals, but I also think that each of us does what we think is best under our own circumstances.
I have yet to see anyone be convinced one way or another until they are ready for a change.

"If "organic" people were serious about changing the way the world eats, the first thing to do would be to get the consumer prices in line."

Okay, let's start by creating a level playing field. That would mean ending ALL subsidies to farms that use chemical ferts, because organic farmers do not receive ANY subsidies. THAT is why organic costs more. I'm for ending all farm subsidies. So let's do it, and no more complaining about the cost of organic when the cost of conventional shoots through the roof after that government-funded gravy train runs off the tracks.

amen Paracelsus

The first pumpkin I carved raised a few thousand bucks for the Red Cross Flood Relief Funds. We did another dandy program carving for a National Cancer Group. It takes a thousand square feet to grow a dandy like that. We are to old to mess with much garden. We contract buy with our local organic growers.........they have it all from beef to beans. We pay a fee. A package arrives here every week even in the winter. We have enough land to grow for six or eight we just do not have the cowboys to hoe the weeds and help put it up anymore. What flowers and beds we do have have been under permanent mulch for up to thirtyfive years. We have a helper who works five hours a week. We are not so venturesome about starting gardens that take lots of care.

I think that the arguement against non-organic can be simplified by asking "What does it do to the soil and the environment?"

Non-organic does not neccessarily equate to bad. Organic does not neccessarily always mean good, either. However, over the course of time, it is far easier to abuse conventional fertilizers than it is to abuse organic ones.

If you are constantly spraying your land with the conventional stuff, it will alter the land. Can it be recovered? Most of the time, sure! Are you going to die from using the non-organic? Probably not right now.

However, when you reuse what the soil can produce, then you are helping the environment more than if you just slather with fertilizer.

An analogy, that might help (well, it worked for a friend of mine), about fixing the symptoms and not the cause: If you have dry skin, you will get some relief by covering it with lotion. However, if the only thing you do is to use lotion, your skin will, over time, get more and more dry, making you need more and more lotion. However, if you get the right oils in your body, you can slowly minimize, and often get away from, the need for lotion because there is nothing to fix any more. Essentially, you fixed your health, which fixed your skin.

Soil is the same (sort of). If you are constantly fixing the symptoms (not enough nitrogen, too much acid, etc.), but not working to keep the soil healthy, then you will slowly need more and more to maintain the same health levels. However, if you address the actual health of the soil (give it some stuff to rot down, feed the worms, make the microbes happy, etc.) then you get a healthier set of stuff growing on it. You are fixing the underlying causes, rather than one specific symptom.

Can conventional gardening techniques feed the people that they need to feed? Of course! Can they last for several years? You betcha! Are they conducive to a sustainable future? Not so much. Is there a place for conventional farming? Of course there is, just as there is a place for organic. The question is, which techniques will take you through a longer, and overall healthier management of the soil, so that you can produce consistently, over many, many, many years.

OK, that was supposed to be my own personal two cents worth, but apparently I gave a dollar. You may now proceed to flame me all you want. *grin*

paracelsus: Your post was enlightening. I had no idea that organic farmers weren't eligible for subsidies. Do you have any idea why, other than they don't fill the pockets of chemical companies? Is it just a result of lobbying and PACs?

I'd be really interested in reading more about it. Do you know of a good source of information on the subject?

Karen

Because the PTB (monsanto, adm, etc) don't want the organic producers to be competitive with them.

It's not that they are not eligible but that there are no subsidy programs aimed at them. They tend to be much smaller farms and not to be using the kind of experimental techniques that universities might be working on. Good example is the corn ethanol thing. There are huge subsidies being paid to farmers to grow ethanol corn, much of which is GMO. In fact, many people, including me, think the whole ethanol corn thing is just a racket to extract money from the US Treasury and has nothing to do with environmentalism at all. But I am just a crank.

Here's the database of all US farm subsidies. It's a matter of public record, because this is our tax money being paid out. This of course does not include any subsidies or tax cuts that might be going to large corporations that provide synthetic ferts and pesticides, etc.:

http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=00000

When I lived in northern MN, they started printing who was getting subsidies in the newspaper. All those people complaining about welfare queens when they were getting subsidies themselves to not grow whatever or to subsidize their milk. In my state, NY, 27% of farmers are receiving some sort of subsidy from the US government. That doesn't include anything from the state. In the Midwest, the numbers are a lot higher--like 2/3s. That's because that's where all the really big "we-feed-the-world-yeah-right" farms are.

Most organic farms are growing vegetables and fruits. Neither of these are eligible for subsidies. Subsidies are aimed at corn, wheat, cotton, soybeans, and so on, the crops of big ag that use a lot of GMO seeds and lots of synthetic ferts and pesticides, etc. Very energy intensive crops, IOW. The head of the Senate Ag committee defends subsidies on the basis that he doesn't tell cities what to do, so they shouldn't tell him what to do. That's fine; then they don't have to take our money, because as long as we are paying, we get to say how it is being used.

I think if your business cannot make it without a government handout, you should be in another business, because you are incompetent at what you do. Old-fashioned crank idea, obviously.:)

This message was edited Mar 12, 2009 7:56 PM

Was it not a guy named Billy Sole Estes who built huge grain storage units all over the Great Plains. Apparently he built them well because lots of your tax moneys went into building them. Eventualy it was found out that there was no grain to put in them. Most were empty with not a gain of product in them. Lordy Lordy.

Now another secret on the good side of life is a very strong movement within the organic product supply is the amazing supply of raw cows milk. The system has forced it's people producers and usuers into illegal activity to get the wholesome food they feel makes them and keeps them heathy. It is likely bigger than moonshine ever was and growing. The loop hole is that it may be fed to animals but not the human animal. Mr. farmer I'll take two gallons this week. The cats are drinking more since they can get more mice. LOL

Wow, I've missed a lot since I was last in here.

Some very interesting reading.

Hastur, in keeping with your analogy... I heard someone once compare using chemical fertilizers to an athlete using steroids. Granted, they get the up-front boost, but what are the long term effects?

My intention isn't to sway anyone, I simply want to agree with all who posted in favor of the benefits of organic fertilizers. And yes, we do sell organic fertilizer... only because we believe in their benefits.

An all purpose 4-3-3 fertilizer contains condensed fish extract, condensed sea plant extract, and naturally developed enzymes, vitamins and catalysts which enhance nutrient availability and absorption and accelerate soil building. The low NPK numbers do NOT mean that you have to apply them by the ton, or in this case (being a liquid concentrate) gallons and gallons to equal the NPK #'s of chemical fertilizers. The recommended application of this organic is 2-3 gallons per acre for crops. You don't have to increase the # of organics to equal what is applied in chemical. It just doesn't work that way with organics.

Organic fertilizers work in the soil to restore the health of the soil. Healthy soil = healthy plants and healthier produce and grains. Not only are the end products healthier, they are larger and more plentiful, therefore producing more food and grains from the same area, in comparison to chemically fertilized crops. There is a man in Texas who, after using organic products, for a 3 year period, saw a 58% increase in his hay crops compared to what he was getting when he was using chemicals and this was during a time of drought. The organic fertilizers cost approximately 1/3 of what chemical fertilizers would have cost him and with the great increase in his crops he made more money from them. It seems that the financial benefit would be enough, in and of itself, to make someone consider organic over chemical.

The use of the organics allows for greater plant vigor and the root system grows deeper in the soil aiding in drought resistance. Deeper roots are able to access the water that is lower during times of drought.

Being a liquid also makes the nutrients more readily available for absorption by the plant which means that more of it is absorbed and less of it washes away. Plus you use less of it to begin with.

"Studies at Clemson University in South Carolina have shown that auxins produced by sea plant extract give plants increased resistance to some fungal diseases, including fusarium."

(Warren Schultz, The Chemical-Free Lawn, 1989).

The list could go on and on.

Self promotion is not allowed on the forums--I have a garden related company too, but I'm not out there promoting myself (although I see it being done more and more lately with apparently no consequences).
Debbie

I'm sorry if you feel I was self promoting. Yes, I was talking about the particular fertilizer that we sell, not others that I don't know anything about. I didn't feel that what I said was SELF promotion, and that is the reason I intentionally left the web address, and name of the product. I was only speaking about the benefits of organics that I am familiar with and can only ASSUME others are similar. If Dave's Garden feels that the post I made was self promoting they are very welcome to pull it from the forum. I'm sorry you were offended.

This message was edited Mar 13, 2009 1:49 PM