Please help me choose an insecticide

Hey there,

I'm growing a mass number of Sagos, Queens, Mexican Fan, and Cabbage palms from seed. What insecticide and fungicide would be safe on young and small palms (less than 6 months old)? Any recommendations? Thanks so much.

Look in that three about Jester's 42 yr old sago palm. He has knowledge of the insect/pesticides. D-mail Jester.

Are you a hobbyist or commercial grower? What pesticide suppliers do you have access to? What pest problems are you currently experiencing? Well for one thing I would try not to use copper based fungicides if you don't have to. You shouldn't have any problems with most insecticides, but I would stay away from petroleum distillates just in case. I'd be surprised if you were having the need for a much product this early on, and you might want to look at your soil quality, watering practices and general pest pressure factors first. Good luck!

Go buy Subdue. I use it for all my plants in pots. I have never lost one to a soil fungus. It is not cheap, but if you want to become a serious grower, I recommend it.

For pest, start with Neem oil. Once you get some tough pest, move to Malathion.

Be really careful with Subdue, if you buy it-it will slow down the growth of your roots, but it is a good systemic for pythium and phytopthera- also some forms of pythium and phytopthera are developing a resistence to Subdue because all commercial growers use it first. I have started to switch to Truban-does just as good a job and doesn't slow down root growth like Subdue can.

I have never used a fungicide on any of my palms-not even as a preventative-try, instead, not to keep your palms soaking wet. Let them dry out some (not all the way) before you water. Small palms with small root systems don't need as much water.

Subdue is the best for the water molds specifically, and it has not been my experience that young palms usually fall susceptible to water molds. The reason that Subdue, and some other fungicides as well, may cause stunting is that it is based on comounds that contain aluminum that inhibit the formation of cell walls in the fungi. Something that contains Thiophanate-methyl, such as Clearys 3336F, is a much better general purpose fungicide. Thelaviopsis, fusarium, colletotrichum, circospera, and gleocladium are more likely in palms.

Always read the label with all products, and remember not to use imidacloprid on anything that is or will flower soon!

I guess we should also say that Clearys is also a systemic-lasts about 14 days, and Subdue, Truban lasts about 30 days


fauna-has it been your experience that Subdue is more effective against pythium and Phytopthera than Truban? and if so-what plants were you treating?

Yes- in a non-preventative scenario. Etridiazole is strictly preventative and has no systemic properties. However, in a greenhouse setting with a high disease pressure where it is necessary to have a regular spray program with rotated chemistry class then it would be advantageous to have both products. (If I recall the re-application interval for Subdue Maxx is something like 3 months.) Truban is also unique in that it also has a second active ingredient that is pretty good against the other diseases I mentioned other than the water molds, so that does make it pretty all purpose.

I think maybe you have your fungicides mixed up! There is only one active ingredient in Truban-which is etridiazole (25%),and it is used both as a preventative and for treating both (and only) pythium and phytopthora. Like Subdue, it can reapplied every 30-60 days and is a systemic. I do switch between them if I have an outbreak.

I think you are thinking of one of the dual fungicides that has both etridiazole and thiophanate-methyl ( I think its those two) i don't use dual fungicides , I prefer to control the rates by mixing them myself

Commercial growers use Subdue for a reason. And time is money - so the root growth point is not as bad as stated. It does not slow the growth down to were nursery growers are losing money - bottom line. I can tell you from experience that my palms or tropicals are no smaller then friends or hobbyist's growers (Which I am) that I bought/traded plants from that do not use Subdue. In fact, from my care my plants tend to grow faster. As far as Truban goes, I know growers now use it as a one-two with Subdue. I have no experience with Truban to say it is better or worse then Subdue. I might check it out now though. :)

The point made about young palms usually NOT falling susceptible to water molds it is completely false. In fact Phytophthora and Pythium bud and root rot are major killers of palms. Ask any Florida or California grower. What do you think "Damping off" is? One cause is Pythium Spp. Seedlings are very touchy to improper watering. Subdue helps we survive my errors when the margins for error are already slim on valuable, touchy palms.

Truban, Subdue and Cleary's are all single-site or systemic fungicides. That means with all three a fungi can mutate and develop a resistance to the chemical. This is NOT Subdue specific. The correct procedure is to alternate like commercial growers do. They have the time and money to do so. To use Cleary's you need a lot of money (it is not cheap) and you need a license to buy it and use it (legally). Any valuable tree that I transplant (Mainly CIDPs), I use Cleary's. I use it every 3 months for 1 year - 2 years. It cost me about $150/tree to have someone do it. But I find it to be the best broad spectrum fungicide and is usually the fungicide of choice in SoCal for agricultural pest control companies.

Since we are getting into details, no one touched on contact fungicides. These will probably be needed along with a systemic fungicide. I use Daconil. It can be bought at Home Depot pretty cheap. (But I now think it is called Ortho Garden Control?). I usually mix it with Subdue for certain tropical plants.

Another point is I understand you are growing seedlings. What chemical you use all depends on the plant and size. I never use Subdue for plants in 3 gallons and up. I only use it for seedlings and 1 gallon/3 gallon transplants. After that size my plants are usually healthy enough to not need anything. Plus with proper watering and proper quality control, you should have healthy plants that can fight off pest. I find seedlings need my help. I have lost some VERY valuable and rare seedlings to fungus. I have learned my lesson. I now am proactive at the seedling stage and not reactive. By the time seedlings have something, it is usually too late. Large plants can recover. This is why I use Subdue. It takes care of the issues I ran into with seedlings. On larger transplants, injured plants or weak plants, I would use Cleary's. One thing with Cleary's worth noting - it will not stop Pink Rot once inside the trunk. Save your money. Heritage seems to be better, but it too is not a guarantee. And speaking of Heritage, it is a good one-two punch to mix up with Cleary's on large plants. But it too is expensive.


Also, let me point out that as with any thread about gardening or growing, every person has their own opinion. Every person has their own experience. What works for one does not mean it will for another. So if you run into issues, try another of the ideas here. :)

lol good one-two punch there Web!

I can only speak of these fungicides in treating annuals as that is what my expertise is in. I know nothing about treating palms (thankfully!), but I do know these fungicides that we are talking about. You are right in that a particular fungus can build up a resistence to any fungicide-that is why we rotate fungicides when there is a problem-always. I never come at a fungus with the same fungicide twice in a row. It also allows me to treat again a bit faster if I switch to something else. They can spread fast in annuals. Isolation is the best defense though. The reason I mentioned Truban though is because they are seeing the resistence particularly with Subdue-not Aliete or Truban, and the reason is that when we see pythium or pythopthora-we all reach for Subdue first, as well as using it as a preventative. I am trying to do my small part in using Truban in my preventative spray when I first transplant. :)

I agree totally that seedlings are usually the vulnerable ones to watch, its when I do the preventative spray as I said above. I would assume that palm seedlings would be as vulnerable as other seedlings.
I am not sure what the person who sprayed Clearys told you about the price-but Clearys is pretty cheap- $ 45-50 for a bag that contains 4 smaller bags within-WP. About 5T/20 gallons. For a hobby grower-thats going to last awhile. Subdue is about $125/qt but the rate is 2T/100 gallons. Lasts a long time. Frankly-if you can get Subdue, I am surprised that you can't get Clearys. Although Clearys is sold under a ton of names now-Tstorm etc.

The one thing I am confused about with what you just wrote is that when the palms are seedlings, you treat with Subdue , but with larger transplants, weaker plants etc, you treat with Clearys. Not sure if you are saying that larger transplants, weaker plants etc are not susceptible to pythium or phytopthora, thus no need for the Subdue, or that you think that Clearys is used for the above fungi, or ....what? :)

Subdue cost me about $400 at a local carrier - Grangettos. Heritage was about $800. Subdue can not be legally sold in CA without the buyer having a license. However you can backdoor it because there is some clause saying if I agree to indoor use only, I can buy. So I did. heritage and Cleary's required documentation. Cleary's and Heritage were about the same price for coverage. Maybe they had smaller amounts, but Grangettos does not sell them. Subdue is so concentrated, I will be dead before I even use a 1/4. :)

When you consider Home Depot or nursery prices for other fungicides, I found $400 to be a shock. But as you stated it is certainly concentrated to last. So when people ask about it I always warn of sticker shock.

I use Subdue for all seedlings and I use it when I pot up to 1 and 3 gallon size. I stop after that. I have someone come use Cleary's for large, field-grown specimen trees I pull. I have many trees and palms that came from other peoples gardens. Things I could not replace or if I did, would cost me a ton. A 16 foot tall 14 foot wide Draco for example. Since they are root pruned, fungus has a good chance of getting in.

But that is where my cunfusion lays...why not continue using the Subdue when they are larger-they are still possibly at risk for the pythium etc and Clearys doesn't treat pythium, just as Subdue doesnt treat fusarium etc that palms are also prone to getting (? I guess some cultivars anyway). Although pythium and phytopthora are more prevalent during wet, humid, hot weather conditions, and I gather that neither of those occur much for you- pythium can pop up in colder wet conditions than phytopthora-like in the 60's-70's.


I can't believe the prices that they are charging you! I am in shock....

Because I live in San Diego. It is not hot, humid and wet. As someone pointed out, Cleary's is the best broad spectrum. Also, this is what has been suggested by very knowledgable people who's advice I take.

I typically think of sclerotinia and rhizoctonia as damping off fungi, but the problem with using a general term for damping off is that it can be any number of fungal species- yes, including pythium and phytopthera. Its true that differnent folks and different areas may have different experiences, but I don't need to ask any growers in Florida what the most common palm diseases are. I have worked in the horticulture industry for years and my husband owns an agricultural laboratory that among many services offered to its worldwide customer base is disease analysis. In addition I am a private and commercially licensed pest control operator for the state of Florida.

Truban is what was formerly known as Banrot with some added chemistry and a new label. It is pretty broad spectrum as was Banrot in spite of what the label says.

In Florida, providing that it is not a registered use pesticide, you can walk into the same supplier that I buy from and get what you want. Most of the time, homeowners are not interested in dishing out $200 for something that will take them 10 years to use up. I pay about $200 for a quart of Subdue and $400 for Heritage (6 oz I think.) Try to find the flowable formulation of Clearys 3336F- I pay about $40. Also, so long as the pesticide is labeled for use in your state, places like Lesco will ship it to you.

The only real way to know what disease you have in most cases unless a clear spore is appearing is to have an analysis done by whichever laboratory you prefer. In liu of that, combining Clearys and Subdue pretty much covers you for everything.

I recognize that I am a professional and I want you all to know that I am not here to "one two" anybody. If you are doing something that works for you, then that's what really matters anyway. I enjoy contributing to message board when I have the time and I am looking to learn knew things as well as I used to only deal with 50 species and I now work for a nursery with over 800!

Every once in a while I lose a plant to fungal rot, but all those times are my fault (overwatering etc.). have to say I just dont' use antifungals in the soil with seedlings or adults... however, I will spray a bud if I get rot secondary to freezing, or my careless overhead watering. For that I use Daconil... seems to work well.

Thanks for the Lesco idea F4F.

I was going to mention Lescos-we have one here (their Clearys is sold as Tstorm) but I never knew that they would ship. Lescos was bought out by John Deere now and may be going by that name now. A lot of companies will not ship chemicals anymore as it is getting very restrictive as to what the EPA will allow on a plane. A lot of these chemicals have to be shipped by ground-and most carriers don't want to mess with that as they move most of their stuff by air, and if they are caught-the fines are very high

I was trying to remember what had Truban and Clearys in it-its Banrot, as you said, a broader sprectrum fungicide, but Banrot is still around. Truban and Banrot have both been around for a long time. But Truban is just etridiazole. There is no thiophanate-methyl in it. It is only used to treat pythium and phytopthora-nothing else. I mix it with thiophanate-methly as a preventative spray.

Its a felony to not add active chemicals on a label, that is in the container-they have to list everything on the label-as well as what it will treat. Believe me-if Truban treated other fungi besides pythium and phytopthora-they would list it, more money for them. "in spite of what the label says" isn't how it works.

4f4-I was just kidding Web with the "one-two". lol I wasn't referring to you at all! Sorry-I have a weird sense of humor, maybe it doesnt carry well online.

You could also try... if you have an Ace... and Ace product cleverly named "Flower and Vegetable Insect Spray". I spray it over all my plants and it doesnt harm them at all. It works great! I have all types of palms just newly germinated and they havent been affected.

F4F- that's cute. I like it.

Tigerlily, you got me. I will admit it. I buggered up my memory of the active ingredients of Banrot and Truban. Well, 'tiger', if only my honey had been available on IM, would have saved me some embarassment!!!! Got a question for you....have an annoying professional friend who thinks he knows it all who claims that the real danger in pesticides is in the inert ingredients. Would love to know what you think about that!

Banrot is still around, but I believe it is no longer in production.......which means if you have existing stock you can sell it or use it but someday it won't be around, if you can even still find it in your area.

Seriously? John Deere bought out Lesco? Well, that could be a good thing......I could also recommend some other suppliers, but Lesco used to have the best patience for dealing with small over the phone orders and such. I'm still waiting for a lot of response to the order by shipping idea (from interiorscapers- not y'all), and then I'll really put the heat under one the these chemical reps!!!!

They don't always list everything a product is capable of doing on a label . This one I know (either from off the cuff information from the company's rep or through 'incidental' field observation as it is 'illegal' to use a chemical in any other capacity other than the label's specification.) Its all based on what the cost of the process of federal regulations, the marketing value of the chemical, what the research dollars will allow, and the plant/disease spectrum of their target customer. I've known plenty of chemicals that could have been labeled for interior use, but weren't because that wasn't the market and the cost of additional labeling just wasn't justified. I've known plenty of chemicals that had broader applications, but weren't included because the phytotoxicity research was too costly. I've known chemicals to be labeled very restrictively for very arbitrary reasons........and I can't really elaborate on that! I think its funny when Europe allows something on a label that we don't and vice versa. Bottom line is that chemical labels are molded on not only the science behind the chemistry of the product but also marketing, demand, politics and lawsuit precendence- which means the homeowner or hobbyist is mostly out of the picture in terms of influencing the industry.

Thanks for the chance to put my hat back in the ring. I'm in sales now, and I sometimes miss the days when I was responsible for all the pesticide training and purchasing!!!!

f4f-you are welcome! what are you selling?

Banrot is not off the market-you can buy it easily. Its just Clearys and Truban, both of which are used alot, so what I think you are thinking of is Benylate-of which Clearys replaced. That was taken off the market a long time ago-I think in 92 or 93-a lot of lawsuits on that one. I remember panicking a bit when it was taken off! From the start of this conversation, in the back of my mind, I was thinking that you had Banrot and Benylate confused with each other.
I googled Banrot for sale on the web-there were a lot of hits here is one http://www2.yardiac.com/show_category.asp?category=148&tgs=9263218:4639253&cart_id=

Web-you might also look for Clearys on the web. I saw Heritage for sale somewhere-$ 80.


Labels:-companies have to say the active ingredients in a product. However, I agree-where you can use the product, on a label is a sham, but that is different than what we were talking about in the above posts.

Subdue is a good point (to me). Tobacco farmers etc can buy the very same product under a different name for pennies-but they buy it by the 50 gallon container and go thru it like water! I think its sold under Rimmadal (sp)-exact same chemical as Subdue . the company that makes Subdue knows its biggest customers are the farmers and sell it cheaper to them. They say we (growers) can't use it by labeling Rimmadal for nongrhouse use etc. I need to get me a tobacco farmer as a friend...lol

As to pesticides containing dangerous inert ingredients-I don't know. Have never heard that before, and sometimes I think that calling something dangerous/hazardous is a relative term-more subjective than objective. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt, I don't know. I know some people would never use Roundup and I can't live without it. I do try to use the hort oils before other pesticides-but if I have a big outbreak of bugs-you can belive I am going to reach for the Talstar....:) My rep is coming over this Friday-he knows his chemicals, I will ask him what he thinks.

What am I selling- LOTS!

Have a great day!

This message was edited Jan 9, 2009 7:43 PM

I am a commercial grower and have not really experimented with too many chemicals. My primary concern for the fungicide was more preventative, and the insecticide was primarily for caterpillars which preyed on many of my plants.

You can use Dipel dust or Sevin dust as preventatives for caterpillars. Once you have an actual infestation, you can spray with Sevin liquid or thuricide.

Very cool place fauna! You are lucky to be selling palms. Loving what you sell is part of what makes a good salesperson... so you must sell a lot of them!


Mustangman-there is a lot of pesticides out there that kill catapillars. I get them alot on the pansy crop, and liquid Dipel or Orthene, mixed with a surfactant will work. I usually sprayed once a week while they were a problem.

Hey "Tiger" (hope you don't mind if I call you that). I DO love my job. In fact, that's my quote in my email signature- "I love my job."

Seems like you must be involved in production or something. I know I'm new here, so I'd be interested to know what you do!

Hey fauna-I don't mind you calling me tiger at all!

As to what I do-I am a wholesale bedding plant (annuals) grower. I have started to get into commercially growing some tropicals as well. I sell to landscapers, universities and country clubs. Commercial and some residential properties. I have been doing that for the past 16 yrs-hence a partial move into the tropicals to stop from getting bored! lol Before that I was a wholesale florist that specialized (in the beginning anyway) in cut tropical flowers and foliage. I did that for about 6 yrs, and the reason I started that business is because we had just moved from Hawaii, where we had a cut flowers and foliage exporting business(on the big island)-one thing sort of flowed into another as you can see. Before that I had a nursery on Maui and also a landscaping business-design and installation . Before that I grew taro in Honokohau Valley for auntie Vicky...lol for trade for rent, before I moved way up the valley. Those were the days! Weird beginning for a horticultural career-huh? Before that I didn't know a weed from a good plant-except one plant! lol You learn that plant pretty fast over there.
Here is a picture of my house back in Honokohau Valley-as you can see, it was pretty isolated-I lived the highest up the valley-about a 3 mile walk down to the road.

Hi Tiger. Been pretty busy decorating my Christmas trees last few days. Now my son wants to know why our house doesn't have lights all over it like everyone elses.........pressure!!!! Thanks for sharing your story and your picture of your former home. Myabe in NC you still live in an isolated and unpopulated place????? I have not been to HI yet, but I love NC- esp. the mountains. Sounds like you have "grown" into your career! Have a wonderful holiday.

I'm also developing yellow spots on my Washingtonia Robusta leafs, this appears to be a fungus, these palms are approx 6 months old, what would you recommend for this?

Oh and one other thing, does anyone know who carries/sells Ethrel Growth Regulator? Any opinions on that product also? Thanks.

MUSTANGMAN, if you can post a picture or give a more detailed description of the yellow spots it would be most helpful.

You have mentioned palms in this posting, so I am assuming that the growth regulator is for some other type of crop?

Fauna, thanks for your help, I might as well ask you about the three problems I'm seeing on certain species. I will attached pictures and info on all, any help would be appreciated! Attached below is the Washingtonia Robusta leaf spots.

Washingtonia Robusta leaf spot #2

Washingtonia Robusta leaf spot #3

Here is a Wodyetia Bifurcata seedling that is approximately 4 months old, it is in a seed bed along with many other seedlings. It emerged as a very yellow seedling as you can see compared to the others, what would cause this?

Here are leaf spots and some deterioration on some Phoenix dactylifera seedlings, what is this and how can I treat it? Thanks

Phoenix dactylifera issues #2

I have heard that growth regulator is excellent for germinating Bird of Paradise from seed, this is what I plan on growing. Just out of curiosity how does this regulator affect palm growth from seed? (If the seeds are soaked in this solution)

Where to start? A lot of causes and symptoms can look the same at this stage of growth in the palms. I recommend you get some disease testing done, but in lieu of that foliar applications of Spectro 90 will cover the gamut of most fungal diseases. I also think there are some water stress related issues at play and I am curious what your nutritional program is. I am going to take a guess at the symptoms in each plant, but i will probably have to go back and forth between posting and looking at the pictures......

The Washingtonia appears to be fusarium. The yellow hallowing is somewhat telltale although very advanced potassium deficiency and moisture stress could appear similar or the fusarium could be secondary. Seems to have a bit of a pattern across the leaf in rows- I am assuming you have overhead irrigation?

The Wodyetia could be a seedling that began deficient. Wet conditions will aggravate this as some nutrients, particularly iron, are not available when the soil is excessively wet or there is poor drainage. What soil mix are you using and how often are you watering?