Basement people, unite!

Good points! After 30 years lots of things become such habit you forget they are important. The plastic is for keeping moisture not extra warmth. We used to start things above a heat duct upstairs & take them to the basement as soon as we saw green. A few years ago we built a germination chamber. Just a plywood box lined with foam insulation. Shelves to fit our needs. A little $20 electric heater to keep the temperature right. 70º to 80º for most things. Germ % has went up in this set up.
Bernie

Great info as always, Illoquin - thank you so much for taking all that time to write it all out. I appreciate your generosity.

And you *knew* I was going straight for those Dahlia seeds, didn't you? >smile< . What I really need to do is find my old copy of the Seed Starters handbook, so I can figure out what will germinate quickly and what will need some time. All of those little facts are probably out there on the web, but I don't feel like doing the world search for germination times for all these seeds!

That is the *most* confusing of all -- knowing when to start them. One thing I did last year was to remember 4-6 weeks before the last frost. Anything that was different than that I tried to commit to memory. With varying success, because the other side of the coin is that some of the coll weather bloomers like Bachelor Buttons, Clarkia, and Calandula might take 4-6 weeks, but you can plant them outside on March 1st if you can harden them off before then because they can take nearly unlimited amounts of cold weather, snow and frost. NOW how do you make sense out of differing plant outs and starting times? Dunno!!! A spreadsheet or a PhD

I am still ltrying to figure out the name of a seed I didn't get sown in time last year. Torenia? Bacopa? It was one of those little ones you see in hanging baskets, but it needed to be started at the end of Jan!!!

Oh, Begonias take a really long time, so if you have any of those, think Late Jan.

Suzy

LOL - Bacopa - the little white one? I think Torenia is mainly purple, but I could be all wet.

I'm hoping that some of the seeds I'm trying your winter sowing trick on will clue me in, as well, as to start times....

All of these posts are applicable somewhere, but not all geographical locations.

I am 65+ and growing seeds all my life with a cigarette blowing away. (I know that is terrible but true) Germinating seeds unless you want to be a collector of seeds in the 'select' group, is not a complicated task several times a year.

I am just suggesting that each of us learn to know what zone we are in and which plants like to bloom which season of the year. For example, dahlias could never be grown here in the summer time. It is just too darn hot and humid. In our zone we have to wait on zinnias in the ground until the first of July as September is out warmest month of the year.

I am really not trying to be argumentative....just adding a few thoughts. My only training was my grandmother and a few upper level courses at NMSU in propagation. Although I learned a lot at New Mexico State about other kinds of propagation....hard wood , etc.,
growing seeds still required the same things to germinate and grow.

You're absolutely right, Gessie. I shouldn't have posted a lot of what I did, including some of the dates and times I did, but I guess I was thinking of basement growers ...surely Texans don't grow in the basement under lights, or do you? (It's a big state!)

Suzy

You are funny, Suzy! I don't have a basement (LOL) but I do grow year round under lights and heating pads when the seeds need the warmth under them to germinate.

**My confession is that as i get older the less I grow for the outside except for a cutting garden and tropicals. I seem to be addicted to propagating African violets and all her many relatives.

I now have 8 big 72" stands in my little farmhouse and they are full of the gesneriads and begonias.

I am just jealous that you all can grow the magnificent perennials that i can't. It is hard enough to find even the annuals which will tolerate our sun. I lived in zone 6 for 11 years in Ruidoso, NM so I am showing a little envy of y'all. (LOL)

I was just saying on the AV forum what a miracle it is what gro lights and a little fertilizer can do to have inside blooms year around.

Wow,really good information here.Last year was my 1st year starting seeds in the basement.I had good success last year.Start a journal.Take weekly notes.The following year,you will be able to look at what worked and what needs to be done differently.My mistake was starting too early.I'm in zone 5.I started in January.The plants were huge.Ran out of space quickly.Couldn't raise the lights any higher,the plants were hitting the shelf above them.For me,I think,I just had to see green.You just want to grow something and you look out the window and there is still several feet of snow.I just had to get soil under my fingernails again.Nevertheless this year,I will wait tll the end of Febuary to start seeds in my basement.You know why they don't have basements in Texas? Same reason they don't have them in Florida.They are below sea level.Edge

I really had never thought about living at sea level. You are so right, Edge. How dumb of me when I live here(LOL)

Your point about zones, etc. Gessie is a good one. Although I'm originally from the rust belt, I did most of my gardening (like you) in zone 8b- 9a up until now - so anything Suzie says to me is golden - the learning curve on plants from a hot arid environment to a medium warm, five times wetter environment has been steep!

BTW, let me know if you want some suggestions on perennials for your area - before I lose everything I learned in AZ!

Another reason for the lack of basements in those areas is the caliche - no idea if you have it in your area, though. But they help a ton with cooling.

Blah blah blah - back to plants!

Edge, you're right - I need to write some of this stuff down - and stick to it. Next year I'll be scratching my head "now what was it that got so leggy...?"

I just found this thread, lots of good points here, especially about seedlings needing to be close to the lights. I do think that fixtures with reflectors or tinfoil added above the light fixture can increase the amount of light getting to the seedlings... aquarium people use those tricks, so there must be some benefit to them.

Seedlings don't seem to know much difference between expensive "grow" lights and regular cool fluorescent tubes, so you can probably save some $ there. A double shop light (two 48 inch 40 watt or 32 watt tubes) will provide enough light for two standard nursery flats of seedlings.

I've looked at the Bio Domes and then ended up going with something cheaper, just because I start so many seedlings... but I'm glad to hear they work so well.

I have slowly accumulated Bio Domes and last fall filled 17 of them full of seeds. I can't use more than 60 sponges x 17 of cutting flowers. They also go on sale once a year......don't miss that sale at Parks.

I bought some new ones in the past year and now have 22 of the 60 sponge kind. They last year after year. I still have some from '96 in when I lived in New Braunfels.

Did Parks do a site-wide sale this fall? The last time I checked, it was seeds etc. but not "stuff" like bio domes and Perma-nest trays (one of my favorite things).

Yes, I don't remember the month but they emailed me. So, I don't know if they just contact their regular customers or not on these sales. They even had their new bio domes that are larger on sale the same month. They also started offering last fall 10 perma nest trays for 49.95 which is a great price on bulk. I ordered 10 the last time a couple of months ago.

I rarely go to their website...I just wait until they notify me. I don't know if this is true, but I have ordered many many seeds from them and I have been told that once you spend 400.00 in a calendar year you get all kinds of freebies..........don't know for a fact if that is true?

I'm on their email list. In mid-November, they were doing 35% off on seeds and plants... it seems to me that around that same time last year, they had a similar sale but site-wide (off non-plant "stuff" too). If you see those bio domes etc. go on sale, be sure to let all of us know! :-)

I've not seen the perma-nests.... ? I should probably go to their site and look, I just tend to stay too long and... well, you know...

Those are the lovely sturdy green plastic trays that hold seedlings (including the 6-pack "sheet pot" inserts) so nicely... Once you try them, you'll never go back to the increasingly flimsy black ones.

Gotcha - thanks!

Maybe I will have to go there....

PaganCat,

Draping plastic around the grow lights will gives me ten degrees
more heat. I keep a thermometer enclosed in the tent.

The temp is 80 degrees daytime, and stays at 70 degrees overnight,
which is ideal for seedlings.

Of course every room or basement would have different results.

I just popped in and read a bit. I have the same shelving unit but have 2 four foot fixtures on three shelves. I am going to put a total of 8 in the othe shelving unit I have. I feel the light is used to light up the room anyway so I don't feel I am being wasteful. Yes the seedlings should be very close to the lights. Get inventive and use anything that won't be damaged by water and dirt. I like to keep the temperature even colder at night depending on what I am growing. I remember one year growing tomatoes. You could see your breath in the room at times. The plants took longer to grow but they were very stocky and didn't take nearly as much hardening off. Hope this helps

Thanks, rustyswoman!

You are welcome. The way I look at the lighting fixtures and bulbs is that there are a lot more expensive hobbies out there we could have. Macy's, Dillard's, Zales... this way we not only have fun, use the light for the whole room but also save money on plants we won't have to buy later and grow more to beautify our homes. They keep us happy so that gets shared too. Everyone wins all around!

Gro lights all over the house are a lot less expensive than the Dr's office! That is the way I view this expense. When I am growing I rarely get sick.

wonderful thread - thank you everyone.

Would anyone like to talk about damping-off fungus? I'm going to talk about what I do in hopes of your feedback/different ideas and then end with a question about a phase of this subject about which I'm clueless.

What I do relates to two key concepts: air flow and drainage (with some remarks about antiseptic & sterile considerations sprinkled in).

Airflow tip #1 as an intrinsic component of drainage with sterility thrown in -

Gessiegail's experience with exposing roots to air fits right in with Norm Deno's thinking that the reason good drainage is so essential to plant growth is because the drainage allows just the right amount of air to infuse the soil or growing medium - otherwise known as porosity.

Since damp-off fungus heads for the hills when air flow is good (around roots as well as tops), I like to include sand, peat moss and Perlite with my sterile seed-starting medium - portions can vary. The sand facilitates drainage, the Perlite also facilitates drainage but may also simultaneously contribute to moisture retention (does anyone know?). And the peat has an antiseptic effect on the fungus, as some believe chamomile tea also does when used to water seedlings.

Sterility is another major precaution against damp-off fungus. Norm Deno recommends pouring and draining boiling water over the pot of seed-starting medium 3x and cooling before starting seeds. I use our covered turkey roasting pan by putting the container of seed-starting medium inside the turkey roaster and gradually pouring in boiling water. Then the top goes on, and while I fill the next container, the medium/soil is absorbing the moisture while experiencing sterilization. Then the containers of medium are cooled and ready to sow in. (Jill - can you rustle up that wonderful post of yours about how you sterilize your germinating medium in your microwave?

An antiseptic precaution against damp-off fungus is to sprinkle a very fine layer of peat over the surface of the medium either before or after sowing the seeds depending on whether they need to be surface-sowed (on top) or sown beneath a layer of germinating medium. Damp-off fungus is especially busy on the surface of the container, and peat retards its progress.

Air flow tip #2 - When germinating warm (as opposed to polarizing the seeds), I time sowing seeds so that they germinate about a month before our last frost date. Just as the cotyledons break the surface of the germinating medium, the plastic or dome comes off, and they go directly outdoors onto a slug-protected ledge. With this natural flow of air, I have never experienced damp-off fungus on seedlings grown that way. In the event of frost, the trays come indoors overnight, but seedlings are too small at this stage to make this in-and-out business too cumbersome. Exposure to natural light at this point also produces sturdy seedlings (as someone above pointed out, I think).

Airflow tip #3 - It was my understanding, that for seedlings grown indoors, the purpose of a fan was to keep the air moving. Damp-off fungus loves stagnant air.

Well, this has worked for me for seeds that do not have to be grown indoors after they germinate. Other seeds I either wintersow, springsow or summersow - all outdoors. So, I'd love to hear what those of you do about damp-off fungus who grow seedlings that need a long period of indoor growing before going outdoors.

Apologies to anyone who posts while I've been writing this tome -
Karen

This message was edited Dec 14, 2007 9:55 PM

karen, thanks for all your time and information. We really appreciate you.

You're welcome, Gessiegail. It goes both ways. My ears perked up when rustyswoman posted about growing tomatos on the cool side, because our basement stays around 50 - 55*F. There are other obstacles to growing tomatos down there, so perhaps the subject is moot, but she did clear that one up for me.

Now, if only Illoquin or someone who has nurtured seedlings indoors like the geranium seeds she's about to send me that require so many weeks to mature indoors before being let loose on the wild, wild back yard will help me out here about fending off damping-off fungus during those weeks, I will be one very happy gardener.

Remember I know nothing! Because of our high humidity all the time year 'round, I have trouble with my African violets, streps and all indoor plants. I know some people won't agree, but when I repot now I always use 1/8 to 1/4 tsp. of Marathon 1% granules. Never do I have mealy bugs, crown rot, etc........what a blessing. I even use it on my baby seedlings of streps and seed grown baby plants. Cedar Creek Violets sell it by the 8 oz. but that is expensive.

I don't know about seeds although i do know about seedlings once they have germinated. There are lots of systemic remedies to damping off problems but not all people like to use them. I have Banrot in the storage unit as we used it in greenhouses where i worked. Can't think of the other good one besides Banrot.

good luck

Thank you Karen, and everyone else. I'm lurking and reading as I'm going to be starting seeds for the first time this year (at my sister's where we have space and she's done this before). Your tips and advice are wonderful - thank you all!
Robin

Tell me if you've tried this - I have a good friend who swears by spritzing chamomile tea on his seedlings to prevent damping-off. Has anyone tried it?

I haven't tried it, but I've seen others post that they use chamomile tea to water seedlings for just that purpose. I use diluted hydrogen peroxide to do the same thing, and it does seem to help. Doesn't 100% prevent damping off, but I've definitely had better luck with it than without it. I would guess it's better to also water the plants with it rather than just spritzing the seedlings--the fungus lives in the soil so you'll get rid of more of it that way, but if the soil is already wet enough then spritzing the seedlings could be a bit of added protection.

I keep talking about 'that man' from Park Seed. He also told me to always water from the bottom once the seeds were germinated.

I have used chamomile tea for fungus gnats, and it works quite well.

I condensed a bunch of my seed starting tips and practices here, http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/589725/, including how to sterilize seed starting mix in the microwave. Just pouring boiling water over the top of the mix might not be enough, since you need sustained high temperatures to kill most bad stuff.

Karen, I'm not sure you've missed a thing! Air flow is key, and bottom watering can be really helpful. I've seen other agents like cinnamon suggested as surface antifungals, but I'm not sure they're any more effective than misting or watering with duluted hydrogen peroxide or chamomile tea (see link above for ratios I use). Sterilizing seed flats, pots, and even seeds with bleach (10% solutions for pots, I think I've seen the same suggested for seeds but that seems high to me?) is also a good precaution, especially if you've had trouble in the past.

I love perlite. I've never had trouble with potting mix getting soggy from perlite -- some brands of vermiculite, yes, but not perlite.

Critter, I don't understand the necessity of baking the soil medium in the microwave oven......karen said she put boiling water over hers and you said that might not be enough heat? I have never done anything with the germination medium and always have good luck with seeds.

In fact, I had never even heard of putting soil-less mix in the oven until I joined DG and I have been planting seeds since i was a child.

Well, when I sterilize jars for canning, for example, they have to be boiled for 10 minutes... it's not a matter of heat, it's a matter of time... pouring boiling water over the potting mix might heat it up long enough to kill the nasties, or it might not. People who bake mix in a conventional oven heat it up for a while also.

Not everybody has trouble with damping off, but it's so frustrating when it happens! I'd say if you want to skip all the potting mix sterilization etc., go ahead, but if you run into trouble, take the precautions before sowing more seeds.

It's a precaution, not a necessity, but it's a precaution that I'd rather take when I don't have more seeds or extra time in my planting schedule. But if you've got a method that works, then you've got a method that works! :-)

When I worked in a greenhouse for several years, we just took straight from the bag....meaning Fafard #3B, MetroMix 360 or Sunshine #5 and put one of these mixes in 100 cell trays or 195 trays and it works beautifully.

The only reason I use the sponges that come with Bio Domes is because the conditions don't have to be as perfect for only a 40 or 60 cell tray When you are using a high number cell tray for seeds like I mentioned in the first paragraph conditions need to be better.

***edited to say that we were taught that you can make your own germination mix simply by using the ratio of 2-1-1 with peat, perlite and vermiculite.

This message was edited Dec 15, 2007 10:11 PM

If you cover the 'soil' with tiny rock chips you won't have to
worry about fungus.

I just found this thread -- good one, PC.

I set my lights on a timer -- approx. 12 hrs on/12 hrs off, sometimes "on" for up to 14 hrs and I keep them about 1" above the plants. I rotate the trays so that everyone gets their share of good "sun." Illoquin, that was interesting to me that you keep yours on for 24/7. It was my understanding that plants generally prefer a period of darkness, no? You're the expert!

I haven't had much trouble with damping off since keeping an oscillating fan going at a low setting at all times, but at the first sign of trouble I would bust out the chamomile tea or hydrogen peroxide sprays.

This year will be my first year to bake the "sterilized" (yeah, right) mix.

Really enjoy your posts, gessiegai! Real life experience does count for something, doesn't it?? I especially enjoyed your observation about the evils of tobacco smoke on plants. My experience over some 50+ years of growing things tends to make me agree with you. I understand that this is a politically incorrect observation (and may get me another "bad boy" message from Dave or some righteous surrogate), but it's factual: in all my years of growing things and smoking my pipe while doing so, I have never, EVER, had one single plant show any signs of TMV. Not ever. So maybe it's a politically-inspired paper tiger? The thought has occurred to me...so I still enjoy my pipe while enjoying my plants. They're happy, I'm happy.
Now about that soil sterilization thing: I did that for a few years in my younger days. Really believed it was essential. But it wasn't. I did a 3 yr experiment with sterilized (both micro wave , oven-baked, control group unaltered, in a split-plot design), and found zero difference (i.e,statistically insignifigant) differences in germination rate, growth rate, or survival rate. So I quit sterilizing my soil. It just wasn't a factor in success rate in my garden. So I stopped doing it, with no consequences that I can see in the past 20 years...
Sometimes in our zeal we make things more complex than they really are...

Personally I don't see how tobacco mosaic virus could survive burning and be in the smoke from a pipe/cigarette in any form that could infect a plant. I'm not sure what sort of processing tobacco goes through on its way from the field to the cigarette (or the pipe), maybe the virus could survive that and be present in the tobacco itself but by the time you burn it there's not going to be any viable virus in the smoke. (Viable isn't really the right word since viruses aren't truly alive in the first place, but you know what I mean!)

I'm also very lazy about sterilizing my soil--I use fresh bags of seed starting mix every year when I start my seeds. I usually toss some peroxide in the water when I water them, and while I've had some problems with damping off on occasion, it hasn't been nearly severe enough to justify the extra time and trouble of sterilizing. I guess if I had a bag of mix that had been open and sitting around for a while then I probably would worry more, but as long as I use a freshly opened bag I've had pretty decent luck.