Basement people, unite!

Okay, so I'm starting seeds and trying to overwinter my plants in my basement this winter. I'm not feeling too optimistic, but I'm going to give it a try - it's just so cool and dark down there....

Anyway. I have a shelf rack (the metal racks you get from costco/ sam's) that has a flourescent fixture above it and I thought I'd do another light in the middle. Is there a way to increase my light short of adding more bulbs? Does tin foil help as a reflector or am I wasting my time?

Does any one drape plastic around for moisture/ heat retention?

What else is essential that I'm just not thinking of? How long do you leave your lights on?

For seedlings, the key is to have the lights close to the seedlings. I have a shelving unit that I use for starting my seeds, it has 3 shelves and I suspend a fluorescent light from each one. Seedlings need a fair number of hours of light, I have my lights on a timer and give them 16 hours of light every day. You could also get heat mats for the seedlings if they're ones that like to be warmer in order to germinate. For the plants that you're overwintering, you can probably get by with fewer hours of light, and you probably won't need to worry about heating them (unless they're tropicals and your basement temps get down below 40 degrees F or so on a regular basis).

Hi, I too will be a basement person this year. I have many ideas. I have found information about using old fish tanks as a seed starter. The lights work great! I also have both florescent light and grow lights (florescent lights for seeds and young seedlings-grow lights for older, larger plants). This will be my first year with my basement garden. I will winter sow everything I can and then everything else will be in the basement :o)

Well, one is a tropical, a mandevilla, but mostly it's Jap. maples that I haven't planted yet. I need to take a thermometer down there, but I'm sure it doesn't get below the low 60's. Ecrane, how close are the seedling lights, approximately?

Distantkin, I'm trying wintersowing for the first time, too - I got a large # of seeds that I need to deal with, so anything I'm already familiar with is going out in the milk jugs. There was a discussion about it on the Cottage Garden forum and I think I got the info I need... wish me luck!

Good luck, next moth Dylan is hosting a RR for winter sowing seeds if you are interested. It will be listed under seed of the month club or something like that. I will keep you posted as to when she starts it :o)

I think the rule of thumb is the lights should be 3-4 inches above the seedlings. If they're too much higher than that, then the seedlings are likely to get leggy and floppy as they stretch to reach for the light

I try to keep my lights (shoplights) no more than an inch or so above the leaves.

Okay, I can see one of my mistakes last year. Although, I was using the Parks 'biodome's, and couldn't get much closer because of the dome. Maybe I'll start out with plastic wrap of some sort. What about doubling your lights? Does using foil as a reflector help at all?

Well, I have the metal rack - got it at Costco for 89 bucks. Now I have to convince DH that he really wants to buy me 4 florescent light fixtures and the grow light tubes for Christmas.

Gee - it doesn't look like a lot of space for plants and seeds . . . I think I need six more racks!

I don't use the biodome but I use another sort, and the dome always comes off shortly after the seedlings sprout, so that should solve the light issue. If you leave the dome on too long after the seedlings sprout, it increases your risk of fungal issues. So once a decent number of seeds in the tray have germinated, I get rid of the dome (I do adjust them to being without the dome gradually--if you take it away all at once that can be too much shock for the seedlings)

I don't use any kind of dome or cover on my seedlings, and they sprout just fine.

So... I thought holding in the heat and humidity was a factor? I mean, I guess I don't know what exact second that becomes a factor or stops being a factor or becomes a liability - ie damping off?

Seandor - I have an idea of just how many seeds you have right now, lol - are you sprouting them all indoors???? I'm doing some via winter sowing. I just don't have that many lights!

I will be starting as many as possible via polar propagation - but some stuff has to be started inside - the dahlias for instance. . . and, well, up north, just about any annual that you actually want to see blooms for before mid-summer. So the zinnias, the impatiens, the brugs, the datura, etc. will all be started inside.

Believe me, I could probably fill six racks with seedlings! (Of course, I would have to give lots away . . . gee, I wonder if the neighbours would chip in to buy the racks? lol)

Polar propagation is terrific for perennials! and for annuals that are quick to bloom - California poppies, cornflowers, baby's breath - but, like I said other stuff needs to start inside

Up north, snort! You're only 1/2 a zone higher than I am.

I'll have to figure out something like a cold frame or something. I got kinda mad at myself for using up space in my trays last year for easy starters like Cosmos and Zinnias.

You got some of Illoquin's Dahlias? I've never grown them before, I'm hopeful!

No - I bought seeds :-)

Gotcha, good luck with them!

I have always heard not to start seeds inside until 8 weeks before putting them out in the garden. Therefore, we get pretty days to put the seedlings in some indirect light until they harden off.

I have used Bio Domes from Park for over 15 years and love them. The horticultural man at Parks gave me some good advice one year. He talked about the importance of the roots getting good air circulation. He suggested that I turn the styrofoam with with sponges on their sides leaning up against the tray that it comes in.

It was amazing to see how quickly they became much healthier sturdy little seedlings with the bottom air circulation.

*Really*.... I have never heard of that before. How long are you leaving them up like that? I can't imagine it would be too long, as the roots would dry out?

I leave them down in the tray until the seedlings are at least over an inch tall.......then, during the day or maybe half a day, i turn the seedling tray leaning on its side. Then, turn it right back like it was. Let me find a picture from last fall.

Here are seeds I started in the house under gro lights and a heating mat. When they got this big, you can see that they are on the front porch already. I would just take the white piece with the sponges in them (with the little seedling) and turn the white piece leaning against the side of the green tray. I would leave them for several hours a day like that to get good air on the roots. Before long I could visibly see those roots pulling downwards for both the air and the light.........it works , honest engine.......

I am certainly not suggesting that anyone needs to use what i use. I ran out to the storage room to take a pic of 1/2 of the heating mats and lights i bring inside the house to start seeds. The mats sit on styrofoam (a material which doesn't conduct heat)........the lights are adjustable as you can see. The mats have a thermostat between the two set ups. I put it in a cell where a seed is and the mat will stay at a given temperature.

What the heck, I'll give it try! Works for you, so.... why not?

You can find me if it doesn't help (LOL)
Good luck...
Once that man told me that from Park Seed, I can really grow stronger seedlings now to put into the ground.......
He also told me to never leave the seedlings in direct sun.........that it needs to be filtered sun under a tree up until the time for them to be planted.

That makes sense - especially in TX. I know that nothing in Phoenix could take it, either. I'm lucky, I have a good sized front porch that is shaded all day that I can use for hardening off. It may be shaded, but I'll bet it's brighter than my flourescent lights -it's a southern exposure.

Lucky you and lucky me. My front porch is on the south side and that is where my seedlings usually stay most of the time. It is brighter than my gro lights.

"So... I thought holding in the heat and humidity was a factor? I mean, I guess I don't know what exact second that becomes a factor or stops being a factor or becomes a liability - ie damping off?"

You're in TN, Pagancat, so I don't think heat and humidity are going to be a huge worry. IME, though, if it needs heat, I use a heating pad under the flat set on Low (I use back heating pads because they are usually cheaper than ones for plants). I don't cover the flat. The only seeds that usually need heat for me are tomatoes, peppers, and eggplants. Some daturas too, but them I sprout in a wet paper towel inside a baggie. I find that works better for me than starting them in a flat because then you can just pot up the ones that actually grow, although it is a bit hard to throw away the extras.

Some people really like various brands of covered doohickeys for growing seeds. Some don't. I have not had good luck with them, I guess because I tend to have a heavy hand with the watering. Last thing I need to do is preserve moisture, lol!

Tied & true, best way to start seeds is inside of a baggie. 1 gallon milk jug, cut off bottom 1" or so. A few holes in bottom for drainage. A good seed starting soil, Jiffy mix maybe. Spread seeds on top, 100 fit in a tray. Sprinkle a little soil over it, water throughly, let drain, then slide it into a baggie. Tie it shut & don't open till you see little green plants. Put under shop lights,(no need for grow lights, to much money!). Transplant out of the milk jug trays when first true leaves appear. Like most are saying, keep lights 3 or 4 inches above plants.
It's worked for me for 30 years. I've tried other methods along the way but always go back to this.
Oh, yes, keep things about 70º when germinating. Lots of things will sprout in a couple days.

Bernie

There are so many successful ways to germinate seeds and then nurture them into strong little plants. Once they are germinated the conditions do become important. My gro lights which are full spectrum are only 6.00 from Walmart but i grow African Violets and need the full spectrum lights anyway.

But I only use the lights until they have germinated as the light outside is so much better if it is not too cold.

That's why we use basements in MN, a little cold outside this time of the year!

Just out of curiosity do you start yours this early? I never start until January for spring and September for fall planting in the middle of November.

Tender things can't go out until May 20 or so. I start most things in March.

Thanks..........I thought I might be missing out on something fun !

I had thought to start my outdoor plants earlier, only because, as mentioned above, some things take such a long time time to bloom, time that I would prefer spent in my basement. Of course, it's totally possible, too, that some things simply won't bloom until they've gotten enough sun-hours, but I thought it would be worth a try. I know that the annuals sold in the stores certainly aren't started a few weeks before the frost date....

Pagancat, I have used the method of starting things very early inside if it was a plant that came from a very different climate, like with a very long season. So I grow mandrakes that I start from seed in October and put outside (in pots) in April. Then they have enough time to flower and try to set fruit before it gets cold here, and will even go dormant and then start putting on a few flowers again before frost. So it does work. But I only start that early with really exceptional plants. Otherwise, they just have to hurry up and grow!

Well, for the moment, the only thing I have started is a few coffee beans I got when my sister went to Hawaii. No idea about them, either, but.....

Ooo - mandrakes. I've only heard about them in stories. Did you cover your ears when you unearthed them?

Yes, and I made sure there were no dogs around.:) Nowadays remote-controlled robots are used to pull up mandrakes, as mandated by OSHA.

>grin< ... you funny!

I start all my seeds in my basement. I get plastic containers out of the bakery at my local grocery store. The containers that hold cookies and donuts. It is like a mini greenhouse I write the seeds and info on the top. When they sprout I pop the lid when they get close to touching the top. I also use heat mats on a thermostate and shop lights with the full spectrum bulbs from home depot.If you get enough lights goining it can raise the temp. My husband kept saying the sherriff is going to come because in the spike in our power bill. I didn't read the other peoples input I need to go back and read. Also sometimes at county auctions I heard they auction off the big lights from drug busts. Good luck Heidi and Dragonfly farms nursery

Hi PC,

Here's my 2c -- all my opinions, so take it all with a grain of salt.

The people who told you to put those lights 1-3" away from the seedlings are right. I use the 1" rule. And make sure you have the lights on AS they germinate, or before, so they are nice and stocky from the get-go. Don't wait until you see them to turn on your lights -- it will be too late for all but the ones that need the darkeness to germinate.

The other things that might help are to leave the lights on 24/7 and also to use fresh bulbs -- rotate out the bulbs every year and use the old ones in your basement or garage fixtures over the course of the year. I read this tip a long, long time ago and always do it -- haven't tested it with a control group to see if it's true, tho.

On the shelves, you might need to rotate the flats or pots so the outside plants get enough light -- you'll see what I mean if it's necessary. They just sort of lean in.

I will probably get some flack for the 24/7 comment as some plants are photosensitive, but I swear it worked on 100s of different seeds I started inside last year with no exceptions. This was tested because I went away and Mr. Clean thought it was wasteful to have the lights on, so he put them on a timer. They got lanky, but I wasn't gone long enough for it to be a problem and they recouperated just fine. (Mr. Clean was disappointed because the timer was somethting out of a scientific catalog and right up his alley, "the right tool for the job".)

Misc: Dahlias grow very, very, very fast. Once they germinate, they actually grow 2x faster than Zinnias! It can cause a problem because the lights need to be so close to the plants and if you have those giants next to slower growing things, then they will be bumping the lights or the other things will be stretching. They are very senstive to setting out too early and temps at 40 degrees will set them back. I guess what I'm saying is do not start them any earlier than 5 weeks before your set out date. (One week earlier than Zinnias because they don't germinate as quickly) And starting them on April 15-May 1 is not too late. They (and Zinnias) love those warm soil temps.

I had some special light bulbs for plants, but the plants did not do one little bit better with the expensive bulbs so I am quitting those and just using the bulbs with the brightest/highest lumens (listed on the package)

Regarding the plastic to keep things warmer: It needs to be removed as soon as the first seeds germinate, and I think the reason people use it it to keep the soilless medium at a constant moisture level, not for warmth. Warmth best comes from bottom heat and a heat mat is ideal for that purpose. Expensive, but ideal. For a cheaper alternative, and one that at least has half a chance of not burning down your house, look into kennel heat mats for dogs -- the ones that keep their water dishes from freezing outside, and see if you think they would work. I *think* they are designed to be wetted repeatedly and be kept turned on all the time. [Please, no one post the great idea of using an old heating pad or electric blanket. If you want to do that it's your business, but don't post it because it's dangerous. I'm pretty sure the kennel mats are about as creative as you want to get on this, and I don't actually have first hand knowledge on it.]

Most serious growers with a lot of seedlings have fans going, if that gives you any idea, and most seedlings prefer to grow on the cool side -- 60-70 degrees. Exceptions might be the hot weather plants -- the ones that really do well in a hot-hot summer, but those are in the minority: Amaranthus, Celosia, Zinnias, Dahlias, and maybe Tithonia. That's all I can think of. The ballast on a fluoresent fixture throws off a LOT of heat, btw.

Sorry to ramble on so long,

Suzy

Thank you soooo much Suzy - this was just the info I needed. I have saved this thread as a favourite :-)

Well, If you're going to bookmark it, let me add 2 more things:

Pinch those seedlings. It makes a stockier, better branched plant that has more flowers, a better shape and will be less top heavy and able to hanlde adverse weather better. And make sure your hands and fingernails, or scissors, are clean so you don't transmit virus or bacteria. If you're a smoker, beware that Tobacco viruses live in cigarette smoke and ash and either don't smoke or wash your hands before playing with your seedlings. Impatiens are especially susceptible, lots of literature out there on it, but there are a lot of seedlings that are also susceptible that don't have the literature because they are not as commercially grown.

Then there is something a little more intricate and aesthetic:

Some plants are supposed to have purple foliage -- things like Purple Ruffle Basil and Rosemary Veery Lunaria. If one gets a pack of these seeds, whether in trade or commercial, one needs to thin (read: kill) the seedlings that do not show the desired foliage characteristics. This will make it so the collected seeds or possible self-sown seedlings will always, a high percentage, I mean, show the desired characteristics.

Same with plants that have variegated foliage like Lorraine Sunshine Helianthus and Chrysanthemum pacifica Ajania pacifica. Only transplant the seedlings with exceptional variegation.

The third ones are a little more difficult because you have to wait until they flower to see the anomalies. This would include single flowers in a strain that should be double, like some Zinnias and also things like Chrysanthemum 'Primrose Gem'. The Primrose Gem should be a ball-shaped baby zinnia looking flower --- very tiny. BUT seeds from this plant will often throw single daisies of the same color. They are ok, but they aren't 'Primrose Gem'.. Pick your favorite: single or double, and then pull the plants that don't match that ideal.

To do this, you just need to oversow by 300%, then it will be easier for you to cull the ones that don't hit the mark.

If you do this ruthlessly, you can mark your seed for trade as "Select". This means that some thought has gone into the seed collecting and that the common examples were culled before they had a chance to cross with the better examples.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox,

Suzy