Zany zinnia hybrids - Part 2

MM-- Nice one!!!

My Zinnias are taking forever to set seed -- do Zinnia seeds continue to ripen on the plant after frost?

Suzy

Suzy,

"...do Zinnia seeds continue to ripen on the plant after frost?"

A killing frost, which blackens the leaves, probably stops the ripening process. However, it probably does not kill the embryos in the "green" seeds, and if the embryos are fat enough (well developed enough) you can harvest the heads and let them dry inside, and hopefully get at least some viable seed to plant.

We have had a couple of near frosts here and my zinnias are very unhealthy in this cold wet weather. I have harvested all the seed heads that had an essentially dead stem attachment to the plant.

I have taken a few cuttings of breeders as an experiment. The cuttings range from 2 inches long to maybe 5 inches long, and have at least one pair of "good" leaves. I have never grown zinnias from cuttings before, but if this works it could be a valuable technique in zinnia breeding. I am experimenting with five rooting products: Rootone, Hormex 1, Hormex 3, Hormex 8, and Dip 'n Grow. The first four are powders and the Dip 'n Grow is a liquid that you dilute with water according to the strength you need.

I am using Physan 20, diluted 1½ teaspoons per gallon, to sterilize the cuttings and their environment. I am rooting them in a 50-50 mix of Premier ProMix and Perlite in 2½-inch square plastic pots under a clear plastic cover. I am watering them with urea-free soluble nutrients, diluted ½ teaspoon per gallon. I could probably go stronger than that with the nutrients, and I will probably double or triple the dose after (knock on wood) they grow roots. These aren't recommendations at this time, because I don't know if this will work or not. I am pinching any buds off of the cuttings because I want them to revert from the flowering state to a vegetative state. For the same reason, I am giving them a long day length of 16 hours of light and 8 hours of dark.

I think we are about three weeks beyond our average killing frost date here and some places in this immediate area had a killing frost several nights ago. If we don't have a killing frost tonight, I will take a few more cuttings tomorrow. I have labeled my plants so that I can identify the breeders after the plants are blackened. Almost all of my non-breeders are already in the compost pile.

Suzy, don't give up on your seed set. After a killing frost, bring the seedheads inside to dry, in whatever condition they are in. After they are dry, take them apart and you will see whether you got any good looking seeds.

MM

This is another cross between two F1 hybrids, made this Spring, that bloomed this Fall. It had a Burpeeana grandparent, a Burpee Hybrid grandparent, and two different Whirligig grandparents, whose combined genes contributed subdued two-toned effects in a larger flowered zinnia.

MM, You usualy post in multiples, so I was waiting for more pics before I told you how pretty that one is. :)

MM, I am having trouble with my seeds. We had a much-needed rain and all the "cone part" of the Zinnias got saturated, When I went out the day after the rain, one of the pods that was ready to harvest had rotted out. The ones with the fullest petals are also really wet. Once I bring them in, will they continue to ripen at all? I have thick seeds, but they are white.

This is sort of an emergency question because we will be getting rain again this afternoon and also tomorrow afternoon.

On other Zinnias, espcially the Profusions, a lot of the dark seeds are pretty flat. How do you tell if the seeds are viable?

More later -- I have a pic of an unusual one, but I have to get it off my camera.

Suzy

Suzy,

"Once I bring them in, will they continue to ripen at all?"

The embryos might draw small amounts of nutrition from the central flower core and even the petals, but basically you are just harvesting the embryos in whatever state they have achieved. You do want to dry them out, but without providing any heat.

The danger with wet seeds is that they might pre-germinate. Years ago, in our Fort Worth garden, that was a particularly bad problem, because we had warm, wet Falls there, and many of the zinnia seeds that I saved in Texas had little roots sticking out of them.

I have noticed a little in-head germination here in Maine, but very little, so I am thankful that it isn't much of a problem in our cooler climate. It could be a potential problem with my seed heads that are still developing in the garden, but they are still kind of greenish, and pre-germination is primarily a problem with completely mature brown seed heads that have gotten wet.

The defense against pre-germination is to harvest the seed heads a little bit green if wet weather is threatening, because as long as the seed coat itself is still alive, it is impervious to moisture. In fact, when you plant green seeds during the summer for a second generation, they take longer to germinate because the seed coats have to die first and decay a little bit before the embryo starts developing into a seedling.

In order to speed things up, I did minor surgery on my green seeds to scrape or split the green seed coat so the embryo could be exposed to moisture. I even successfully grew a few naked embryos. That seems a little "fussy", but it did speed the second generation up by two or three weeks.

"I have thick seeds, but they are white."

If the seeds are thick, the embryos are well developed and potentially viable. I planted some moldy white seeds this year, and they seemed to germinate just fine. The only danger with white moldy seeds is that they may have gotten moldy because they were moist, which could have caused pre-germination. But don't throw any seeds out because they don't look good. It can't hurt to give them a chance to germinate. If the seeds have long brown dead roots hanging out, then they probably are done for.

"This is sort of an emergency question because we will be getting rain again this afternoon and also tomorrow afternoon."

I usually leave wet seedheads to dry in the garden, with the idea that they will be cooler there than inside and less likely to pre-germinate. But if it looks like an extended wet period ahead, it might be better to harvest them now and try to dry them out without germinating them. I might just tear them apart while wet and spread them out on paper towels to dry as cool as possible.

"On other Zinnias, especially the Profusions, a lot of the dark seeds are pretty flat. How do you tell if the seeds are viable?"

Profusion seeds aren't nearly as large or fat as "regular" zinnias. I guess the best way to tell if they are viable is to plant them. Seed companies have sophisticated winnowing machines which they use in conjunction with germination testing, but we have to rely on our fingers and eyes and do our germination testing "for real".

Incidentally, seed companies usually shoot for 80% germination, sometimes as a legal requirement. On my saved seed this last Spring, I didn't do better than about 50%, and in some cases only about 10%. Some seeds that look very big and promising actually have an immature or dead embryo. With a gentle pinch, you can usually tell if a seed is "fat". One test that I now use on a seed is to try to bend it. If it bends or folds easily, it isn't good. If the seed is hard and resists bending, it has at least a well developed embryo, which is usually, but not always, still alive.

Good luck with your seeds. Don't expect perfect results. Even a few successful seeds can produce a good outcome. And one lucky seed could produce a nice new strain of zinnias.

MM

This message was edited Oct 25, 2007 1:29 PM

Thanks so much!

Here is an unusual Zinnia -- the plant itself is only about 12" tall and it has a lot of these little button flowers. They are about an inch across.

Suzy

Suzy,

Wow! That is an unusual zinnia. I like it. I'm pretty sure it is a mutation. It looks like a scabiosa flowered zinnia, except that it has no guard petals! Do save seeds from that one. You may already be on your way to a new strain of zinnias. How very cool.

MM

Suzy,

And, that one might be a candidate for taking a cutting or cuttings from, to try to winter them over under fluorescent lights. Or maybe you could dig up the whole plant and put it in a big container. I would hate to give that little zinnia up to a killing frost without a fight. Have you thought of a name for that little zinnia yet?

MM

Ooooo, what a unique specimen you have there, Suzy! Looks like you have a new protege, MM--how exciting!

Wow! I'm not sure it's worth all that, but it is cute and most of all, it has a nice garden habit. I can put a bucket over it for this first night when frost is iffy and the temperatures not too low, but not sure about bringing it inside.

You know how we were talking about Zinnias that are dahlia shaped, or cactus shaped or scabious shaped? From a short distance away, this is a dead ringer for Lantana, esp the common one that is pink and yellow.

If I can get some seeds from it, I'll send you some -- if you're not in the address exhange, dmail me, ok?

Suzy

Illoquin! How awesome is that zinnia?! Very unique- worth an effort
to extend it's life, if possible. I can't tell you how many places I've
looked to find unusual, different zinnias. In my opinion, they have
been overlooked by some who would rather be developing new rose
or brugmansia types. Perhaps one day I will be able to purchase
a much wider variety.

MM, your recent post of the bi-colored F2 is enchanting. It seems luminous, or
is that my eyes?

TH,

"the bi-colored F2 ... seems luminous, or is that my eyes?"

That's pretty much the way it looks. It's not actually generating light, but several of my hybrids between hybrids have had an unusual quality to their petals that is hard to capture with a camera. There is an almost three-dimensional layered look to the petals and it seems that the petals themselves are made of a somewhat different substance. I like the look, and I will be selecting for more of it next year and inter-crossing specimens that have it. I think that zinnias have a lot of surprises hidden within their DNA spirals that we have yet to discover by one means or another.

MM

Wow! I popped on to the annual board to ask a basic zinnia question and what did I find but this fabulous thread(s) devoted entirely to the flower. I can't wait to go back and re-read it all and look at all the gorgeous pictures! But before I do I'll ask my question as this is most certainly the place to get it answered.

I don't know much about pollination which I suspect is the answer to my query. I bought some 'Profusion Deep Apricot' this spring, and to be quite honest was not too thrilled with the color. However; as I was pulling up the plants the other day I noticed something interesting and was wondering if this is a common occurrence. The later blooms are a totally different color as you can see by the picture. They look much more like the Profusion Orange (which by the way Suzy came true from saved seed this spring as was very viable) then the plant's original Apricot.

Now here's your clue. I did have the Orange planted about 5' from the Apricot. Do I have cross-pollinated blooms mixed with the true blooms on the same plant? And of so, any guesses what color next year's blooms would be?

Thanks All,
La

La,

"Do I have cross-pollinated blooms mixed with the true blooms on the same plant?"

You very well may have some cross-pollinated blooms on the plant, but that shouldn't affect the color of the blooms. I would guess that the light colored bloom on the right is just an age-faded version of the bloom on the left. I think it is fairly normal for the Profusion blooms to fade considerably as they age.

To clarify what I mean, I will describe my experience with deliberately cross-pollinating one zinnia with another. If I have a nice canary yellow zinnia that I think would be a good female for some crosses, I might place some pollen from a bright red zinnia with a different flower form onto some of the stigmas at the base of the petals on the yellow zinnia, with the ultimate objective of getting the flower form of the red zinnia in a nice canary yellow color.

The successful pollen grain grows a long thin extension down inside the stigma to the egg cell at its base in the "seed" part of the petal and fertilizes the egg cell to start the development of a hybrid embryo. The stigma then withers within a day or two**, but the yellow petal remains yellow and reasonably attractive looking for a couple weeks or so, even though the single fertilized egg cell is doubling and re-doubling at a rapid rate. The rapidly growing embryo has the hybrid yellow-red genetics, while the petal and the seed coat itself retain the genetics of the female parent, with no visible change except for the "pregnancy" of the seed part of the petal. There is a plant version of an embryonic sac that isolates the child from the mother. The "fertilized" petal, or the composite flower it is a part of, does not turn red or orange.

**Unfertilized zinnia stigmas can remain yellow and receptive for two weeks or so, so the timing of a cross pollination is not very critical.

MM

I went out and looked at mine and I have the same thing -- on the same plant. I agree with MM, and additionally I think the Profusion Zinnias open a brighter color in the cooler weather. I agree, those colors are completely different, not just a darker version, but I still say it's a combination of cooler weather and new vs old flowers.

Suzy

My thanks to you both for responding. I read through MM's responce twice, and will probably read it a couple more times. Hand pollinating fascinates me but at this stage of the game I confess it's still pretty confusing to me.

I had also considered the cool temperatures as a factor since that's when the blooms started changing color. I would like to stress however that the boom on the right is not in the least faded. That 'apricot' color is a perfect representation of how the flowers looked all summer long when they first bloomed.

Maybe this shouldn't seem so odd to me. I grew 40 varieties of coleus this summer and the foliage on some of them seemed to change on a weekly basis. This is the first time I've ever witnessed night and day on a flower bloom though.

La

La,

"That 'apricot' color is a perfect representation of how the flowers looked all summer long when they first bloomed."

That zinnia on the right has an unusually light color, even for the "regular" Apricot Profusion: http://www.parkseed.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10101&langId=-1&mainPage=prod2working&ItemId=2219&PrevMainPage=advsearchresults&scChannel=Annuals%20AS&SearchText=p16.v226;p13.Zinnia;p16.v230&OfferCode=TH1

And you mentioned that you had 'Profusion Deep Apricot', which is much darker yet: http://www.parkseed.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10101&langId=-1&mainPage=prod2working&ItemId=2387&PrevMainPage=advsearchresults&scChannel=Annuals%20AS&SearchText=p16.v226;p13.Zinnia;p16.v230&OfferCode=TH1

For Deep Apricot Profusion, even the darker bloom in your photo seems a little on the "light" side. I wonder if you don't have the regular Apricot Profusion instead of the Deep Apricot Profusion, if your blooms all summer long were as light colored as you described. Or perhaps I misunderstood what you said.

But, as Suzy said, cooler weather can cause significant color shifts in zinnias. I noticed that on many of mine before the frost got them.

MM

Perhaps they mixed the tags up at the garden center MM as it definitely says 'Deep Apricot'. Or maybe I got some ugly mutants, LOL. At any rate I guess I'll chalk it up to the weather change. Nature is surely a wonderous thing and I doubt I'll ever stop being fascinated by its many mysteries.

Thanks again for your helpfulness and all the great info and pictures in this thread!

Hi all,

This message thread is continued over in the Zany zinnia hybrids - Part 3 - Indoors in the Winter http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/798070/ message thread. See you there.

MM