Betty - Here are a few pics that I'd sent to a friend & she subsequently posted on another forum:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/gal1019161924863.html?10
Al
Container Soils: Water Movement and Retention II
Thanks Al,
All of those pictures were very beautiful. I am going to look at those pictures again and again for ideas.
Betty
OMG, Al, I knew your containers would be "pretty" but those are downright overwhelmingly gorgeous. Thanks for posting them. Wow. I know this question has probably been asked and answered, but do you water them all by hand?
xxx, Carrie
(a new convert to Al's potting mix.)
I use a short waterbreak & water each container twice to be sure it's evenly moistened. I have about 200-225 containers (the bulk are bonsai) I water daily & it takes about 90 minutes.
Al
What do you think of irrigation systems?
x, C
another pic:
Automatic drip watering systems?
Al
I guess so, I don't really know what I mean yet, but watering 64 containers (not including hanging stuff, or stuff that is waiting for DH to put up a hook for it so it can hang) from a WHEELCHAIR is really hard!
x. C
Is there a danger in using packing peanuts at the bottom of a pot?
Not unless they're biodegradable.
If you read the first post in this thread, you'll see that adding anything to the bottom of a pot actually hurts rather than helps drainage and is not a good idea.
Hi all,
I used Tapla's formula for potting soil in one large container I planted in July and today it is still looking as good as the day I planted it. I am one that tends to overwater my pots and with this potting mix it works well for me and the flowers are still looking good in mid August.
Looks great Betty. I would like to see more photos from those who used Al's formula.
victorgardener,
I second that--please post more pics .
Carrie, if you don't have too many hanging plants the pulleys from Charley's Greenhouse are really nice. Lets you bring the plants down where you can tend to them and water them. They cost around $10 each, but sure are nice.
Jeanette
Here is a photo of a few of my pots, these are on the deck. The soil mix is pretty near the same as Tapla advised. They are watered with drippers on a timer.
Donna
Gorgeous - I love esp. your nasturtiums!
xx, Carrie
Rutholive,
Very impressive!!!! Love them all.
Thankyou both for your kind remarks. The wind is blowing so hard now that I am afraid they won't look good in the morning.
Looking good Donna. What is the taller one with branches, and what do you do with it in the winter? Just curious. Do you have a greenhouse to put it in? I think I remember you saying you do don't you?
Jeanette
The taller one is a fig tree that needs to be repotted next spring. I do keep it inside in the winter but not in my small gh. I have another room on north side of garage that I call my Bonsai storage, it is inculated but only rarely heated. I keep plants and bulbs in there at temps between just above freezing and about 45 degrees.
I will try to remember to take a couple more photos tomorrow and post of more large pots.
Donna
Sorry if I offend anyone with the following...
Could we please keep this thread on topic? It is a sticky on the container forum which, along with its companion part 1, contains a great deal of useful information. I, like many I'm sure, have this thread on my watch list so that I can learn about this important topic of perched water tables and container soil structure. If the thread gets off topic, not only will it get long and slow to load for anyone with dialup, but more importantly the discussion will come to a halt because everyone will unwatch the thread.
Again, sorry if I ruffled feathers.
SB
Brilliant thread, Tapla.
I would humbly add an observation to help everyone more easily to understand and more readily (and wisely) to accept your early point, i.e., that having a wick extend beneath a pot lowers the PWT and thus increases the usable soil in a pot of any height.
GFP and capillary action are both directional forces. The direction of gravity, for all practical purposes, is always straight down. In contrast, the direction of the force of adhesion, which I consider the primary force involved in capillary action, depends on the orientation of the surfaces to which water "wants" to adhere. Therefore, in a wickless pot, the PWT will be that level within the pot, relative to the drainage hole, at which ALL the downward force gravity exerts on the water within the pot is exactly equal to, thus cancelled out by, the net upward adhesion force resulting from the contact of that water with the soil surfaces.
Accordingly, when a wick --itself made of materials with surfaces exerting/accepting adhesion force-- physically extends downward from the height of the drainage hole, the force of adhesion ADDS TO the force of gravity in the downward direction, instead of offsetting it, as it does in the pot above. All other things being equal, this will invariably lower the height of the PWT, and create significantly more usable soil for your plants, in any pot.
tapla, thanks again for your wonderful explanation.
JPlunket, I'm sure glad I used wicks in all my bulb pots in the fall. I should have much better luck, thanks to Al. I appreciate your comments that adhesion increases the gravitational force so as to free up more of the soil for use. At least that's what I think you said.
Tapla
Have you considered the use of furnace fired clay pellets that are used in light weight concrete mix? I have used these in hydroponics systems with very good results. This product may be a replacement for turface or perlite. “Aerolite” is cheap at $30 per cubic yard and can be found at local concrete companies.
Oldude
Yes - thank you, OD. Another similar product I mention frequently is Haydite - if it's not the same product you mention under a different name. Turface & Haydite are both calcined (high-fired) clay while another product I mention, Play Ball, is fired diatomaceous earth.
Al
http://www.gardengatestore.com/ultragrow.html
Al - I just saw these at the Garden Gate magazine store, what do you think of them?
x, Carrie
they will make your pots lighter, by having air take up some of the space inside the pot, but they simply push up the PWT up by the same distance the insert raises the bottom of the soil, that is, the height of the drain. To get more soil in the pot that is really usable by the roots, i.e., soil NOT saturated with water held in place up to the point where gravity's downward force equals the net upward force of the capillary forces, you need to set up a capillary "avenue" that extends below the effective bottom of the pot, the drain height.
If you filled the space beneath one of these inserts with some sort of absorbent material, that would do it --but the insert itself will not.
Hope I explained that clearly...
Yes, you DID! Thanks. x, Carrie
OD, are you still growing hydroponics? I am just getting interested in it.
Jeanette
Jeanette
Yes, there is nothing as exciting as growing it with hydroponics. I use it in the spring and fall when the temperature of the mixture can be maintained below 85 degrees. I recently got interested in the earthboxes ,but I am not sure if Tapla’s formula would work, since it is designed to drain quickly and not retain moisture. Perhaps Al will advise on this.
If you want to experiment with hydroponics you could start with a 5 gallon bucket and an aquarium air pump. This was my first experiment and I grew some of the best cucumbers ever with that simple system.
Oldude
Yes, the soils are suitable for wicking applications. I often leave even tall containers full of completely dry soil in a tub of water overnight & by AM the top is moist & the container ready for planting.
I don't want to hurt any feelings, and even though growing in containers is more like hydroponics than growing in the earth, I would like to try to work together and keep the focus of this thread on container soils, please?
Al
That is so funny Oldude. I had a setup in the basement for a couple of tomatoes and a cucumber but the tomatoes just can't seem to do much this time of year. So, I moved the cucumber into my kitchen. In a 3 gallon, that actually took 4 gallons, and put my cucumber in it with a short 2 tube floeurescent light on it. Will be fun. I just did that on Monday.
Sorry Al, you didn't hurt my feelings, I was just so surprised when Oldude asked about the fired clay pellets because by coincidence I had just put mine together. Enough said. LOL
Jeanette
Al, help!
I have had great success following your "my soil" recipe, with the addition of polymer crystals b/c I can't water everything, everyday.
The problem is, it's getting expensive, and it's hard to store the fines and peat over the winter.
I'm a huge container gardener, and I've just purchased 6 -10 gal containers and 10 5-gal. containers to grow annual cutting flowers on my deck (it's a BIG deck!).
I've been looking for inexpensive soil ingredients. I thought I had it when I discovered that coir is available in huge bales, but then I stumbled on this study:
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf
Any comment?
The fines and the perlite are the financial killers. I was looking for something less expensive. I guess what I'm asking is: is there a cheap and easy way to re-work your formula?
-Melissa
I would be really interested in the answer. I am appalled by the link you gave in your post, Jax4ever; I thought coir was supposed to be a good growing medium, but that link suggests otherwise!
Hi, Melissa. I've had that study, and several others that show similar results, forwarded to me, and I've seen similar results from my own (admittedly) limited exposure to the use of coir. I have simply found conifer bark to be superior (and less expensive). Coir can have a salinity factor that needs to be addressed, too.
That said, I've never seen coir offered at an expense less than that of pine bark. The reason makes good sense, too. Pine bark is often a local by-product, with the shipping expense a good portion of the end cost of the product. Coir is much the same, but it's shipped much farther & is, therefore, more expensive. So I don't really think you cost assessment will hold up to closer examination. ;o)
I'm not here promoting "my soil" or a particular soil - not at all. I'm here to promote & stress the importance of aeration and structural integrity of all soils for the life of the planting. It doesn't matter how you arrive at that end, just so I leave you with the knowledge that that end is very desirable. ;o)
I pay about $3-4 for a 2 cu ft bag of bark, depending on whether I get it at a big box store (on sale) or at a nursery/greenhouse. I used to buy it by the pallet from a wholesaler, but they changed brands & I didn't like what they were selling the last two years - perhaps they will change this year. I was very pleased with a product labeled "Golden Trophy - Premium Landscape Mulch" that I found at Home Depot last season, and I have around 25 bags of that stockpiled.
I pay about $12 for a 4 cu ft bag of perlite, and almost any sizable greenhouse operation will order it for you if you inquire early.
You asked: ..... is there a cheap and easy way to re-work your formula? The answer to that is: I don't think you really can get by much cheaper than some variation of the bark/peat/perlite blend. There is nothing really carved in stone, as far as a mix recipe or formula goes, but I spent a lot of time experimenting with different components & combinations of components, so what I pass on to you here, takes into account first, plant vitality, then expense. If you build your own soil from a recipe similar to the one I use, you'll probably find that in the end, it costs you less than half as much as a commercially prepared, and usually less suitable soil.
I can't help you with the storage issue. I know the ingredients can be bulky. The only way around it (the storage issue) would be to buy the ingredients in the spring, as you would have to do to eliminate a storage issue with a commercially prepared blend, or store the ingredients outdoors.
Al
This message was edited Jan 25, 2008 2:44 PM
This message was edited Jan 25, 2008 8:44 PM
Thanks, Al!
My biggest problem has been the pine bark fines. The only place I can find it sells it as a high-end mulch for $10+ per big bag.I will check the HD and Lowes sites for the stuff you buy. If they don't carry it here, I may be able to coax our farmers' co-op into buying some for me.
I find that the pine-bark based mix is a little awkward for houseplants in small pots! Do you use that mix for small houseplants?
I have made myself nutty running the cost of coir bales vs. the cost of other materials, and you are 100% correct. Coir is expensive; it's only plus is the ease of storage.
Yes, Happy, I was appalled, too!!! If coir were a better growing medium than the study's 50/50 perlite peat mix, I would spend a few extra $ for the coir! But, when you think about it, it makes perfect sense: peat has more nutrients than coir! Coir doesn't break down like peat. I'm glad I saw that before starting my seeds (I bought a small bale of coir for that purpose). Now I know to mix some nutrients into the coir. I just discovered "Bio-Tone Starter Plus" by Epsoma. My aforementioned co-op sells in in 25-lb bags. It is like the Shultz Soil Conditioner, but it has nutrients. I haven't tried it yet, (I just bought the 4-lb bag), but I'm going to do my own experiments!!! I'm not promoting the Epsoma, but I'm excited to have found it. (Geez, I gotta get a life!!!)
Al, what do you use as a seed-starting medium?
P. S. It would be a whole lot simplier if you mixed up "your" soil and sold it on Dave's!!!!! I am promoting it to my local nurseries (where I am a very familiar face!)
The thing that stands out in the USU study is the high electroconductivity levels of the coir products. Since all samples were fed the same, there's obviously some characteristic of the coir that increases salt concentrations (or, conversely, something about peat that mitigates salt buildup). Is it the coir's inherent salinity, its absorptive qualities or some other factor? Rather than completely abandon the product, it may be that feeding practices need to be different for the coir media than the peat media. Without any good reasoning to back me up, I'm wondering if plants grown in coir can either be fed with a fraction of the nutrient needed when growing in peat, or if more frequent fresh water leaching will compensate for the higher salt content. To me, EC is an indicator of inefficiency in nutrient delivery as much as anything else, therefore, more efficient delivery of nutrient might compensate for the radical differences found in the EC levels.
illinguy, do you have a site that explains about EC in language a doofus (me) can understand?
Are you and Al professionals in the natural sciences? (I am thinking or returning to college to study geology.)
I'll see if I can hunt one up. Generally, EC is the measurement of the ability to conduct an electrical current through, in this case, your growing media. The higher the concentration of nutrient salts built up in the soil, the greater the amount of electricity that can be conducted, hence the higher the EC reading. If salt levels get too high, the ability of the plant to take up nutrient is inhibited.
I'm far from a professional in the natural sciences, and from what I've read, it's obvious that Al's forgotten more about soil science than I'll ever know. His explanation at the top of this thread is fascinating, and I've really never seen it explained as clearly as it was there.