It's about time...Yellowwood

I'm with you, BobMaackia. Relishing a lot of moments silently these days.

Maybe you need to hang with a better crop of plant geeks.

BTW, the article was published in a nursery association periodical circa 1999.

Working my way back up-thread (don't be offended by hyperbole that follows occasionally):

•Cladrastis only blooms every other or every third year.

Lies, all lies! Well, at least like the mature female spouses' anecdotes that gain credence the more oft repeated.

Yellowwoods are capable of blooming every year. I have two good sized individuals here at the Valley, and they do so without much effort and no help from me. I would say that the recurrence of spectacular bloom occurs more in the alternate or every third year. This may be the source of the tale, misinterpreted. I would also venture (like most plants) yellowwoods bloom more heavily in full sun and with better general growing conditions (quality soils, average moisture levels, etc.). The recurrence of heavy bloom is most likely a genetic characteristic of the species, related to the energy required to produce a really large bloom and the seeds that follow. I don't know that this conflicts with Resin's statements above, especially since there are many plants that flower well that don't grow in hot places.

•Cladrastis may need up to 80' (24 m) to develop properly; otherwise, don't plant it.

No one would plant much of anything if the measuring stick was the national champion's ultimate dimensions. Especially a tree that is in a cemetery, and has probably had nothing but ghosts disturbing it since 1852. As Scott ably and duly noted, plan for a 50-60' (15-18 m) tree, 2/3rds as wide and vase-shaped. And this will be about a 40-50 year old tree!

Scott also ably noted that his pic of 6:02 p.m. 3/16/07 is NOT a yellowwood. The bark is certainly not smooth, gray, and beech-like. I can't make out enough about it from ye olde squirrelle powered computer to tell what it is.

•What cultural conditions does Cladrastis demand?

Yellowwood simply isn't demanding. Circumneutral pH is its normal haunts, but dropping down into the 5.5 range won't faze it, and it'll probably go up near 8.0. It doesn't want to be waterlogged; I'd wager my 2007 viburnum crop that is where most wannabe yellowwood growers go most awry. Tight compacted disturbed soils that stay excessively wet around a newly transplanted tree is most certain death (and that is a good Dr. Kevorkian prescription for many plants). Pine needle mulch, shredded hardwood mulch, other composts all are suitable soil coverings under this tree. Exact bloom time? Consult some arboretum listings that are in similar climates. For Montana (which doesn't really need a fabricated plant collection) I'd compare bloom times of the Minnesota Landscape Arboretum or University of Maine-Orono. Somewhere around or in between when yellowwood blooms there should be when Mrs. Sofer smiles.

•My Felcos are burning a hole in my pocket. Must.....cut.....wood....

Take two Decumbents, and call LHDP in the morning.

Many good recommendations have been made above, to which I'll add: prune during the growing season, or in the fall. Late winter and spring pruning will earn you a fountain of flow from your Felco filleting. For form: imagine a fine elm, and aim for that. Look for crossing branches and narrow crotches early in your tree's life, and eliminate them. Don't wait for the agony of having to remove a large favored branch, though the gradual reduction/removal process is right on the money.

Watersedge's wafting words made me lose my train of thought.

•Since yellowwood is hung with a brittle-branch moniker, I don't want it.

Then generations to come (as well as the decider) will be deprived of a great tree. My note above referred to weak-wooded à la the narrow crotches (thus, included bark and weak attachment) splitting away from the trunk with age and weight.

This is not really a natural condition, based on observation of specimens occurring in their native haunts and unpruned seedling grown plants. I have observed hundreds (if not thousands) of nursery-grown plants, which develop very narrow crotch angles from new growth after being decapitated in the production process to create an unnaturally dense head on a relatively young tree. Resin's comment about the Latin derivation most likely refers the actual way that the wood fractures when in tension. There are many plant branches that will SNAP abruptly when bent to a certain point; I'm sure we can all name more than a few. I'm aware of this characteristic in Cladrastis from tying up plants for transport. Must be careful not to ruin it before you plant it.

If I missed anyone's question, you'll have to wake up and ask me again.

I know I'm probably the last person who should be caught up in a debate anything horticultural with Resin (and yes, I'll try to stop referring to Sorbus as Mtn. Ash, but no promises), but I'm skeptical that summer heat is the whole explanation to this. It seems to me that these trees are native to an area that has plenty of summer heat--every year. I could understand a lack of flowering following an unusually cool summer, but that is not what we've had the last several years. The trend is for higher than normal temps, which it seems would increase the flowering of this tree according. I'm still waiting to hear from those folks who get to see these trees on a daily basis in its native haunts. In my own extremely limited experience growing this tree, we've just come off two very hot summers with no significant flowering this past summer. I know, that and 50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.

Where can you get a 50 cent cup of coffee? I need to move to WI.

I couldn't think of a renowned Montana arboretum, and ventured that it might be because it has such great natural beauty already. I certainly didn't mean that your gardens were superfluous. Au contraire! And I'd rather trade you my viburnums for your scintillating cedars (apologies to Resin -- Thuja plicata). I still find myself drifting back to Ross Creek...

Yellowwoods, like most other trees, can develop multiple trunks from ground level. They don't have to, and can easily be grown with a single trunk. Latent buds can break from around the base of the trunk (usually as a response to some environmental stress). These will go on to grow into additional trunks unless pruned. This is not one of those trees that "suckers" incessantly, though, like some of the Rosaceae members.

I am going to make my april trip to Ross cedars to partake the sun slits through the mammoths. The fragrance of the cedar highlighted by the morning fog rising off the snow covered forest floor. This time I am equipted with my Warbler books to identify the songs of these "Hiawathan" songsters. Maybe I'll meet Longfellow or Robert Frost, being that the road not taken is 6' deep in Snow. "Two roads diverged in a YELLOW WOOD, .....I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference". See I can stay on topic sometimes. Steve

Just a thank you for posting this thread, VV and others who contributed. I do have room for this tree and will plant one. I hope it will do OK in my sandy soil. For some reason, most trees I have seen around here do not seem to bloom nearly as well as those you show -- in fact, I have never seen bloom like some of the pics above. I read VV's comments on blooming but still don't really get it.

There are a number of fairly big ones around town here though nothing like the OH state champ Scott showed. I love the smooth gray bark on this tree. In the UM areboretum, there are some which produce seedlings all over the place -- so I guess they must indeed flower. They are really tall forest canopy plants there so the bloom is way up there I guess.

I didn't read all the posts above yet, but does anybody know what general size this needs to be in order to start blooming? I have heard about 12' height before, though obviously that will depend on lots of things.

And I have to say it, but aren't threads like this the GREAT thing about this forum?? Sure hope that the wealth of knowledge and detail shared by people does not somehow put people off......

Flowering is controlled by the nutrients taken up by the plant. Excessive amounts of nitrogen will lead to lots of leafy growth, at the expense of flowers. As someone stated above, environmental stress may cause excessive flowering, this as a defense mechanism of a plant that perceives its' ultimate demise. I may be making wild hair generalizations based on flowering herbaceous plants, is it not the same for woodies?

I once told a professional archeologist that he must be mistaken about a vine he had described as wisteria blooming in August. Surely he had mistaken wisteria for kudzu, which also has a pea-type bloom. This was at Sumter National Forest in South Carolina. When I visited the site myself, there it was wisteria blooming away in August. (!)

david:

Thanks for the kind words, and thank you more for your experiential additions.

Keep your eye on the yellowwoods. I'd assume that they just aren't quite as common up your way, and you don't get to see them regularly enough. As far as comprehending my comments...I sometimes need a translator.

I know 2" caliper trees are blooming size; I've posted pictures of that size in bloom and have repeatedly purchased these from local nurseries. I just posted about seeing a slew (slough?) of 20-25G container 'Perkin's Pink' 1.5-2" caliper at a nursery here, many of which were loaded with last years pedicels. Several stray seeds were still swaying.

Years ago I used to receive the publication that American Forests produced, which included the national champion tree register. I remember that Michigan (maybe the state capital?) seemed to have quite a few of the biggest trees of a species. Might be worth a visit (or at least a call to someone knowledgeable) to see what there is to see.

Here's a link through American Forests' site to Michigan's big tree register; David, you owe me one for sitting here waiting for this monster pdf to download. http://www.michbotclub.org/big_trees/TMB45.2.pdf

I can see that there are a lot of big trees to go visit in your state. On the 21st page (of 88 in the pdf, though the actual document page is numbered 85) of this record, there are four yellowwoods listed. These are some big boys; one each in Flat Rock, Ann Arbor, Michigan State University campus, and Bloomfield Hills. I want to see a picture (if I don't live long enough to get there in person) of the 104 footer (31.5 m)!

PGz5:

I have heard more than one astute plantsperson make the claim that trees "that know they are dying" put a lot of resources into reproduction. That seems like an overly anthropomorphic statement and there are quite a few variables to producing seed (such as pollination, available moisture, available nutrients, predation, etc.) that the individual tree has little or no control over. Anecdotal information is just that, and I have observed this condition quite a few times over the years. Having the seeds in your pocket may be all the proof needed.

I cannot speak to generalities pertinent to free range follicular emanations as I have no point of reference.

Gloria:

An enigma cloaking a condrundrum wrapped in a riddle...tell us more about the freak wisteria.

Finally (with me too late here at the keyboard, and when I should have several cats ensconced comfortably around me, by their measure), David wrote:

Has anyone else experienced frost cracks with this tree? Mine has unfortunately had this happen twice, and I've taken to leaning a board on the SE side of tree during winter and it hasn't happened since.

Here's a pic of the branch I'll be removing.

Man.

I was going to vote for Maackia to chair the new Northern Plains chapter of the Yellowwood Society, but now I'm not so sure. That tree seems to have had a hard life.

Do you ever use any herbicides around your trees to keep the mulch rings clean?

I have never had or seen frost cracks on yellowwood, but we are relatively mild in comparison down here in central KY. The board method or some other shading mechanism is a simple protection device until the tree has some age on it.

Another point: the first pic seems to show the trunk meeting the ground with absolutely no flare at the base, i.e., like a post. That's generally not a good sign on a tree this caliper, and usually indicates too deep of a planting depth.

Interesting you mention that, VV, because the arborist I had out thought the same thing. He dug down a bit with his hands and ruled out planting depth as the problem, but couldn't off an explanation for it. Hey, it's a really nice tree if you don't look at the lower third of it. I'm not gonna give up on it, but I see my lifetime dream of being nominated chairperson of the Yellowwood Society going down the tubes. Oh well, I think they still want me over at the affiliated Amur Maackia Society.

p.s. No use of chemicals to control weeds.

I've wrapped the trunk of my yellowwood for the last two years. I know that's not the preferred method now, but I have a huge roll of tree wrap. Hopefully, when I'm out of tree wrap the tree will be large enough to not need the trunk being wrapped for the winter.

The ultimate size of this tree has me a little scared. I had always heard that this tree was a moderately sized tree. Oh well, I'll be long gone by the time the tree is too big. It is a beautiful and unusual tree so I am not too concerned.
Mike

Sometimes a girdled root system will produce a flareless plant. But I prefer to believe that you have a new variety on your hands.

I hope an autopsy isn't in its near future, but it was container grown and I'm not sure if I was savvy enough at that point to closely inspect the roots. I can remember they (Gertens) had three left and I was not going to leave without one. None of them were perfect, and all had branching issues. Other than living in the upper midwest, I don't think its had an especially tough life. Its growing on the best ground I've got, with ample sun and moisture. I'm completely anal when it comes to digging the hole and preparing the site, so I can't imagine that being the problem. I think I'll plant a few more in a variety of locations. It's just too nice of a tree to throw in the towel. If the current trend continues I'll be head of the Deadwood Society before long. ;)

You are head of the I LOVE TREE society Maackia. You had the foresight to plant this child in your garden. Though "I" have never made any mistakes in my garden I am sure others have. LOL

Bob,
Didn't you get a 'Perkin's Pink' from the Rochester nursery? How is that doing? My plant is doing great - so far. Eventually my tree will shade my entire back yard. That's okay, since the tree should be spectacular when in full bloom.
Mike

Steve--Based on the pictures you've shown us, it doesn't look like you make many gardening mistakes.

Mike--I do have PP, but its much smaller than the seedling, which was planted a few years earlier. I originally planted the PP in a prominent location just off a deck on the south side of house. Its kind of a homely little thing at this juncture and my wife kindly requested that I move it. I always lose these turf battles so it was moved to an area along the driveway. It flowered heavily last year and a bumper crop of seed pods are still hanging.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Yes, I have lots of seed, too. I put a bunch of seed down a week ago. I scarified it first and then soaked it in water for a couple of days until it swelled up. I am hoping to get a number of seedlings from the seed I put down.

Has your yellowwood grown very fast? I think my tree put on 6" or so last year. It's only been in the ground for two years so I guess I need to wait until it gets a little more established.
Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

The PP has grown much slower than the species, which during the first 2-3 years probably averaged 24". I've had it 3-4 years now, and I doubt it has averaged even 6"/year. Of course, moving it after one year in ground probably didn't help matters. Are you going to the Arb plant sale this spring? Its been a few years since I was there and I'd like to attend if at all possible. Let me know if you're going and we can enable each other into buying beyond our budget and/or space.

Bob

My PP is a monster grower--I bet it put on 3' last year. It was slow to get going, and got moved a couple times, plus had deer damage, but it is settled in now and rockin'. Patience young jedi.

Here are 2 photos of my almost 12 year old Yellowood lower trunk. One showing the lack of flare at ground level. The second one shows where the two largest trunks would rub against each other, have had the foam piece in place two years now. As i understand from reading above posts, I should wait a couple months or so to remove the smaller of the 2 trunks. Am I right about that.

Donna

And here is showing the two trunks, that I want to be sure I am doing the right thing when removing the one on the right

Hi Bob,

Yes, that's what I need, an enabler that will help me buy more. I do that on my own, without any help from anyone else. I'm not sure this is such a good idea. (:o)
I already have more plants in pots than would ever fit into my landscape.

I would like to go to the Arb. sale even though I have no business going to the sale. It will depend on what is going on that weekend. I went last year, but not until Sunday afternoon and by then, all of the cool stuff was gone.

I've spent over $500.00 on mail order plants this spring and I have no business going to any plant sales. That said, what day were you thinking of going to the sale? Saturday or Sunday?

Rutholive,
You're thinking of removing the trunk that originates on the left (side of the picture), but grows to the right, correct? If that's the case, I would say yes, that's the trunk to remove.
Mike

Steady Boys, be careful about that Arboretum sale talk. LOL A little birdie told me the Friends Sale will be having some interesting woodies this year too. Same Mother's Day weekend. I suspect they should have the listings on their new web site in a couple weeks. Friendsschoolplantsale.com

It would be a shame, Bob, for you to come all that way to the Arb, and not go an extra 9 miles to my place. Please consider it. Invitations are always open for DGers.

Thanks, Rick. I have not been to that sale for years. Wow, has it ever changed. I checked out the web site and looked at the plants that were available last year. I would almost rather go to that sale than the Arb. sale. I might have to take that Friday off so I can go early and get a few things before they are sold out.
Thanks,
Mike

You guys should move to Montana where there are no garden sales. It helps a lot. Though I drive to
Seattle to go to them. Hmm, Addictions are hard on one.

So Seattle is where you go to get your fix. I would think venturing to the emerald city is be a bit like an alcoholic stumbling into a liquor store. I can just picture Sofer hanging out in those "seedy" Seattle nurseries, running his trembling fingers across the tempting foliage, lust building in his heart for that little Acer he thought he'd swore off forever... Whew, sorry, I got off track for just a minute.

Leftwood, yes, I'd love to visit your plant kingdom. Nine miles from the Arb? How sweet it must be. I'll drop you an e-mail when the date gets near.

Bob

I have my 7 favorite nurseries that I visit everytime and always add one or two new ones. How did you know I inhale Acer Japonica when I am there. I often go to wells medina nursery for dream times and sit in the back where all the Acers are and imagine their mature 20 to 30 feet while I remember my garden at the same time. I think they wonder about me when I take my folding seat into the nursery to sit.

Steve, I envy you even getting to go to nurseries in Seattle area. No nurseries close to me., not even good ones in Wenatchee. My daughter is coming for a 10 day visit the end of May. A little late for plant shopping, but I am sure we will find something of that nature to do.

Donna

I have been swamped the last few days so have not had a chance to visit. Thanks VV for your response. I have seen the big tree register for Michigan, and yes, Michigan does actually have more than its fair share of big trees. I think that is a reflection of its being a large state as eastern states go, still has a fairly large extent of forests, lots of ornamental plantings that are fairly old, and is positioned in the transition zone between the eastern deciduous and northern coniferous forests. And when you add in the Great Lakes and their moderating effect, and even some wetsern disjucts thrown in, you end up with a pretty rich flora, both herbaceous and woody. As a kid I used to take walks in a rich glacial-riparian woods near my house and spend hours sitting under a gigantic sugar maple. It was at the time either the Michigan state champ or the national champ, with gigantic multiple 5' trunks radiating out from a huge base. It is gone now, had some rot and lightning damage and apparently most of the crown came down in a big windstorm about 10 years ago. But it instilled in me a love of trees which I carry with me to this day

(Off topic, I hope I don't get canned...)

OK, back to yellowwoods -- yes, there are some big ones here, there is one in the arb that is huge, at least 3' DBH, and another there that has a very wide crown. I have seen some others here in the 2-3' range. But the bloom is still a mystery. I have never seen them covered with bloom. And the plants that come into the nurseries here don't seem to have that much in the way of flowering/fruiting material.

Oh well, I guess if you want to see a really happy yellowwood, you have to move to KY, the heart of the yellowwood range....Maybe I'll do that...

I dissagree that I think that my alkaline soil will cause one to soar. (wishfull thinking). David I have gone off topic so many times VV ignore my coments and moves on to the next. I you get canned it will be for being stupid and not following the kind warnings I have had a couple of times from our wonderful sponsors.
Donna I am coming to Seattle on the 24th of June. I will be able to get you what ever you want and can come home via Tonasket and crash at your house and deliver the goods. That should be a peak time in you garden. Steve.

Steve my door is always open, so will be expecting you.Which nurseries are you planning to visit.

Donna

Wells medina, Whites in Edmonds, Molbaks, flower farm,and one I can't remember the name in puyallup. Thank you for your welcome. I will stay in touch. Steve

Here is a shot of the former Ohio State Champ taken at Spring Grove today. In fact, it might still be St. Champ, but merely as a matter of reverence and perhaps the paperwork. Thanks to John for pointing this out to me, as I have never noticed it in past sojourns. As you all can see, this old gal must've been something in her prime.

Scott

I would bet something valuable (if I had something valuable) that this giant had a 3-5' caliper.

One more. This tree had suckers and seedlings rooting into its own rotting core. Who knows how long it could go on like this!

Scott

This yellowwood escaped from Ohio to bask in the granduer of the "big sky" country. Thank you Scott for the wonderful addition (s) to my garden! All arrived safe and sound. Tonight they are soaking to go into Pots or can I plant on site?

Good ole USPS!

Scott