What to Plant in Front of Black Beauty Elderberry?

I planted 3 Black Beauty Elderberries and one Sutherland Gold Elderberry near my fence line this fall. I am wondering how fast these will grow. They were 1 qt size when I put them out. Do they need to be cut down to the ground each spring? Any ideas on shorter shrubs to plant in front of them that might bloom at a different time? The area is part sun. Thanks.

Susan

Susan,

You can look at a couple of viburnum threads here in the last couple of days for some nice choices.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/671369/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/671515/
Although I will now be denounced as a heretic by the militant viburnum crowd, I think that Snowhite Spirea would look nice in front of the elderberry. Great red/orange/yellow fall color and white flowers early. Or maybe Henry's Garnet Sweetspire. You don't have to cut them down every year although every 3rd or 4th year will keep them looking their best. Here is a complete pruning thread for these kinds of plants: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/656774/

Regards,
Ernie

Terrible mind to finger control today. Red/orange/red changed to red/orange/yellow.

This message was edited Nov 19, 2006 5:40 PM

What other recommendation might one expect from one so crabbily named?

While I won't excoriate Ernie for suggesting Spiraea, I would ask that he include the genus/species for that choice so that it is certain that what is found is what was meant. There's way too many spireas around to leave it to chance.

I'll ask another question before throwing out some additional plant ideas. What are the cultural conditions chosen for these shrubs? Is it a wet spot, average, or dry? When you say part sun, is there shade cast from far away or are these plants right under the canopies of taller trees?

I wouldn't cut back any woody plant that you just installed that started as a one quart size. Give it a couple summers to get adequate roots under it, so that it can regenerate stems after a cutting back. I don't grow these elderberries, so I can't comment on rate of growth. I do know that it is not the easiest task to integrate those foliage colors with other plants. Often, this is what is meant by "...eye of the beholder."

Snowhite Spirea, aka Snow White. Hybrid between S. trilobata and S. trichocarpa. Sometimes listed (incorrectly?) as Spiraea x trilobata 'Snowhite', I'm more comfortable with Spiraea x 'Snowhite' as it was how I bought the plant. One pass on the heresy conviction, two to go. :-)

Regards,
Ernie

The area is not under a canopy of trees, but close enough to a neigbors tree to be shaded part of the day. I think it gets at least 6-8 hours of sun in the summer. I would say a little on the dry side, but I do water that area regularly. The Henry's Garnet Sweetspire sounds like a good possibility. I have a couple viburnum in another corner. They seem to be very slow to grow for me, but I do love them. Thanks for the suggestions.

Susan

perhaps you would be so kind to recommend a mailorder place to get any of the lovelies you mention. Today I found out I have to replace a recently planted snowball viburnum. Yep, HOA sent out the notice that they were raising dues on Saturday, and today some numbnut decoded to take it out on an innocent viburnum. I oughta use beartraps, not mulch, on my shrubs from now on....

For GJ and lincolnitess:

I should extort money from you for this. You live so close (that I can taste it) to one of the finest viburnum growers on the Great Plains -- Classic Viburnums run by Gary/Susan Ladman. They mail order (I think) but you could write/call/email and ask. I'm fairly certain they ship regularly to Lincoln and the larger burgs in CO. Classic Viburnums can be reached at 308-425-3057; sorry, no website.

They will have just about any viburnum you can imagine (and I'll fill in any you can't).

For a wide-ranging array of species to "front" the original elderberry question, I'd add:

Drier conditions

•Callicarpa spp.
•Fothergilla gardenii clones
•Hypericum spp. of the 3-4' size
•Spiraea betulifolia 'Tor'
•Viburnum dentatum Little Joe™, Raspberry Tart™
•Viburnum carlesii 'Compactum'

Wetter conditions

•Clethra alnifolia 'Sixteen Candles'
•Ilex verticillata 'Red Sprite' (plus male)
•Itea virginica 'Little Henry'
•Viburnum dentatum Little Joe™, Raspberry Tart™

So this isn't a Black Beauty, it's a Diablo ninebark, and it's not really what you want to plant - but this color combination I really liked.

I found an address for them in Upland NE, is this the right ones?

http://www.wnla.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=directory.detail&member_id=1083

Well, I am glad bigcityal, that you showed a picture with something HERBACEOUS in front of your Diablo ninebark, and not just another SHRUB. Jeez, you woody plant nuts need to learn to think outside the box ;o) !!!!

Sure, elderberries might look OK with some smaller shrubs in front of them. But add a drift of Dahlias like al, some japanese anemones, pink astilbes and hostas if it's shady, sone boltonia 'Pink Beauty' and a drift of feather reed grass, and all of a sudden you have a garden and not just a shrub screen. And it doesn't have to take any more water or maintenance either.

I love to use elders in a mixed border setting like this. In my old place I had 'Guincho purple', the older inferior version of BB, as well as some others. They can be coppiced if you want to keep them smaller, or allowed to get bigger. Coppicing will definitely control the size if you want, but in my experience it also eliminated the flowering and fruiting.

GJ:

That's the one. Go forth, and multiply viburnums.

David:

No constricting boxes here. Lincolnitess made the request:

Well, VV, you are right, got me on that one. A request is a request. I was mostly not being serious (my old GW page said "never take anything I say too seriously..."). But I do think that sometimes we all are constricted by planting 'boxes' -- I am, I am sure, and so sometimes it is useful to stretch them a little (and yank a few chains along the way too, just for fun...)

This is a photo I took last spring before things started to grow much, but you can see the herbaceous part of my garden is pretty well taken care of. The bushes you can see in this photo are some snowberries that I dug up this fall. I never liked them much and they were getting old and shaggy. That is where the Elderberies are now. I am also getting rid of the compost bin and will be filling that in with some type of shrub also for privacy. The tree you can see behind the snowberries in in my neighbors yard and not right over the shrubs. The back of the garage faces South West. Looking at these photos, it's possible that when the elderberries are full grown, I may not need anything else in front of them. With them being so small now, there just seems to be a lot of room there now that the snowberries are gone. It's good to know we have a good place here in NE for viburnums. I have never heard of them. Thanks again for all the ideas.

Susan

Hi there Susan~~

I hesitate to even post this pic, as it shows my 'Black Beauty' while planted in a holding bed, and not the finished planting scheme, but it does show the plant itself well, and shows its growth-pattern when cut back to the ground every late winter/early spring. I now have it growing with 2 Hydrangea 'Endless Summer' with similar pinkish flowers that take on a tint of blue in our acidic soil, a lovely Japanese anemone 'Pamina' that really stays in her place unlike some of her wandering relatives, a lovely Rodgerisa named 'Chocolate Wings' that also have really soft, pretty pinkish/white flowers, several Heuchera and Heucherella with darker foliage and pink and/or white flowers, and some Hosta that I left where they were although they might get moved this spring....always moving something! I also added 3 lovely 'Burgundy Lace' Japanese Painted Ferns to this area and they will probably stay as the foliage looks nice with the Elderberry.

Just my little planting scheme, and not a done deal by all means!!

Let us know what you decide!

Jamie

It's nice to see how it looks with other plants. I do think the flowers are very showy. Does your get berries in the fall?

Susan

Susan - It looks as though it will be set off nicely by the yellowish color of the plants you have edging the beds, what are they, spireas?

There are some 'Emerald & Gold' Euonymus along the edge of the path leading to the compost pile. I also have some golden creeping Jenny which is very low already in the area in front of them.

susan

Nice!

Jamie, do you have a picture of your Rodgersia 'Chocolate Wings'? I really like what I've seen of this plant in catalogs - just wondering if the plant really looks like the pictures (chocolate) when planted in the landscape. I would love to add 'Chocolate Wings' if the foliage truly is as unique as it sounds.

Thanks, Debbie

Lincolnitness I have no pictures of it yet but I have alternated my 'Black Beauty' Elderberry with 'Madonna' Elder berries and have placed in front of them alternate Cimicufuga 'Ramosa' (in front of Black beauty) and Cimicifuga 'Mairei' (in front of madonna) these will give a different bloom time to the area and the plants will highlight the back drop of the Elderberry. The strong upright flower of Cimicifuga will draw attention to the elderberry. I am planning to prune the elderberry to the ground each year to limit the size of the elderberry.

I like the sounds of the Cimicifuga in front of the elderberries. Will look them up. Thanks!
Susan

I don't remember what the latin name of the plant was, but at a previous house, I had some sort of dwarf mophead cypress in front/beside a Japanese maple and it looked nice. It was more gold than anything and it was supposed to get only 2-3 feet tall. When I think of that color of the black lace (or the diablo ninebark), I always think of yellow as being a pleasing color to go with it.

I bought it from the nursery malusman (Ernie) works at. So Ernie, what did I buy?? :o)

Sounds like Chamaecyparis pisifera 'Filifera Aurea' terry, or golden threadleaf cypress. That would make a nice contrast with just about anything you plant with it.

Terry,

I look through sales history on 'Gold Mops' and found nobody whose last name who started with an 'R' and whose first name was Terry. I think that 'Gold Mops' was the only one that was sold as being that small. Perhaps you bought it before 2004? Imagine my suprise when I saw the 20' plant at the Bernheim Arboretum! Bill Hendricks says that dwarf Chamaecyparis cultivars have a tendency to start producing shoots that are more vigorous than the original plant. A sort of sporting. Get rid of the vigorous branches and the plant remains dwarf.

Regards,
Ernie

Why yes Ernie, it was bought before 2004. We lived in TN then, so it would of been a drive for me to of visited you there :o) I would guess it was bought in 01. Terry is not my given name, so it wouldn't be under that anyway. It's at my old house up here, so no longer my concern, but I will pass on the info to the new owners. 20'? Oh my, it will never do for it to be 20', my japanese maple would be swallowed by it, me thinks. *double big grin*

rcn48~~ Sorry it took me so long to get back to you!

I don't have any good pics of the 'Chocolate Wings' Rodgersia....The leaves on mine do start out quite chocolate colored, but tend to go green after a month or so....I have pics of it only in the green leaved stage.. :-( I had purchased it hoping that it held the lovely darker color, like Cimicifuga 'Brunette' or 'Black Negligee' but it really didn't in my garden...it might have been to bright of a spot though...maybe with more shade it would do better?? Here is a pic of it - well after the brown color has faded - and once it was in full bloom. Still a nice plant, but not quite what I was looking for!

Jamie

Oh jamie that is beautiful. I'll send my Dad over to get it, he's in Sointula LOL.

Here is one of my Cimicifuga 'Brunette'. My ones in front of the Elderberry are just recent plantings and have not shown their colors.

I have a Cimicifuga 'Pink Spike' that looks a lot like that one, except it's supposed to top out at 3 feet. Yours is really full, looks happy where it's at! LOL

PrairieGirl~~ Isn't it pretty?? I hope you post pics if you get one... :-)

I love this plant also...it's Cimicifuga 'Black Negligee' and it holds this wonderful deep black foliage all season - right up to the first hard frost.

Here's another Cimicifuga I love - 'Hillside Black Beauty' is almost as dark and I love it with the Golden Splendour Trumpet lily...

Jamie

I never knew there were so many cultivers of Cimicifuga. I need to give some of them a try.

susan

Jamie you have stunning color & texture combinations in your garden, is that Fireland yarrow and little bluestem in that last pic or??? You've encouaged me. I was going to put my 'Garden Party' lilies next to my 'Pink Spike' cimicifuga, the lilies are white with yellow throats and maroon stripes and spots.

Susan~~ I agree, you do need to try some.. :-) They are such gorgeous plants, so structural and almost majestic in form...I tend to buy them whenever I see one I don't have....and have yet to be disappointed. The flower spikes are a nice addition to the late summer garden, and the three I pictured above all are strongly scented of, believe it or not, Grape Soda..LOL My daughter loves those flower spikes...

Prairie~~ Thank-you for the kind words! I have a near obsession for plants of all kinds, and really have fun mixing foliage shape, color, textures in my garden. The Achillea you asked about is one I found last year, and really like...'Walther Funcke'. It has really nice, lacy, light green foliage and the flower heads go thru many colors as they age....a nice plant that hasn't tried to take over my landscape like some Yarrows can. Here's more info on it if you want to check it out!
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/127811/

Have a Great Day!
Jamie

Oh I'll look for that one jamie! I just planted Paprika last year and wasn't a bit disappointed ( as I was in Summerwine, which I promptly yanked), it is so important with yarrows that you like the range of colors it goes through. I take it your cimicifuga is in full sun?

Hi Susan,

Regarding VV's November 22 thread about Classic Viburnums, I have called and talked to them and they sent me a CD of their catalog. It is incredible! If you'd like to borrow it sometime, I could drop it off for you.

They will deliver to Lincoln for free if you aren't picky about dates. I plan to call them in the spring to order something, and they are willing to just bring my order along when they make a big nursery delivery. I haven't seen their product yet, but if the CD and VV's recommendation is any indication, their viburnums will be wonderful. They sell to Finke's locally, and I can guarantee you that to buy from them directly will cost less than half the price of going to Finke's for the same thing.

Anyway, keep all that info in mind if you decide to go with a viburnum.

Lori McGlory

PrairieGirl~~

Yes, mine are in full sun, even though they all say they should be in partial shade. I just don't have any trouble with them, provided they get enough water....they will get a lot of leaf burn if not watered deeply and well! I have noticed that some I see in shady locations do not keep the deep, dark black mine have...and that's what I like about them, so I make sure the drip irrigation lines go quite close to mine and they have done well for 3+yrs now!

I have also checked out Paprika, as well as Terra Cotta....I love those dusky oranges....may get one or the other this next year...

Jamie

I could probably trade Paprika for some of yours, or if you can tell me how to collect seeds? Paprika is red with a yellow eye.

I have LOTS of paprika yarrow seeds, if that is what you need.

Cimicifugas are my favorite plant of 2006. But I know that I will be busy buying many more in 07. Mine don't like our hot sun here and thrive in partial sun or heavy shade. Though this one my DW planted is doing well in the sun. I haven't the name. Does anyone know which one it is? Steve.