What to Plant in Front of Black Beauty Elderberry?

Steve~~

I think that is 'White Pearl' (or Pearls), as it looks a lot like the one green foliaged one I have. I will look for a pic and we can see how close they are in appearance. Do you have any of the black leaved ones, and do they stay dark in the shade?? I only grow mine in more sun to help them hold that gorgeous black color...but they do take supplemental water in those sunnier spots. I know they dislike being moved after getting established, but if I thought they would hold good color in shadier spots, I would try....

Let me go look for a pic of 'White Pearl'....

Jamie

Steve.....the only pic I can find right now is not a good one, but the foliage looks very, very simialr to yours....it is the foliage at the very bottom of the pic, almost dead center.....not much showing there, but I think you'll see it....

Hope this helps....if I find a better pic, which I know I have somewhere, I'll post it....

Jamie

Helps to actually post the pic......Ugh - long day!

A lot of help IDing cimicifugas comes from knowing when they bloom. C. racemosa and americana are summer, mostly early July bloomers. End of summer and fall bloomers that are not dark-foliaged mostly are C. simplex, of which White Pearl is a selection I am pretty sure. Your picture looks more like a fall picture, so I suspect it is some form of C. simplex.

Anyway, they are all good -- summer and fall bloomers alike. I love the dark foliaged cimicifugas but I am not sure I would personally plant them in front of a dark foliaged elder -- too much foliage similarity to me, though obviously that depends on how the plants are massed and placed (AND personal preference, for which of course there is no right or wrong.....).

Thank you jamie68 you are right it is C. simplex. I have all my brunettes in the filtered sun and they stay quite dark.
David thanks for the information on Flower ID time. You are right this is fall and quite late. My thinking on similar colors is to add depth to the color contrast between Dark and Chartreuse. ( Blackbeauty Sambucus/Madonna Sambucus) The Cimi's will flower at a different time and keep the flower interest color longer. I have a large area that you look down into and want the 3D effect of different foilage texture. This is the area and each Sambucus is located in front of the Drift wood the cimis will emerge about 4' in front of them. The rest of the planting is Various Cornus, Hamamelis, and Parrotia trees.

I believe David thought you were putting your cimicifuga in front of a Black Beauty elderberry Steve. That would get lost, I agree.

That is what I am doing. But the Black beauty will be mixed with the Simplex in front of it and the Madonna will have the Racemosa in front of it. This is what the Madonna Sambucus looks like.

Now I get it! So the similar colored foliage is right next to each other, with blooms at different times, so it continues right along. And the similar colored foliage has the depth of a painting, with shades and highlights. You are so masterful, how did I come to doubt you? LOL

You are embarrasing me. Any way I will have the chartreuse overlap laterally with the Black beauty/Madonna and proximally with the chartreuse cimicifuga in front of the 'black beauty' Sambucus and the Racemosa proximal to the Madonna. = Depth and contrast and floral overlap. At least in my mind. We shall see how it actually works.

Yes, interesting concept. You were right about the 'Chocolate' eupatorium, it redeemed itself in late fall and so far by having great big, fluffy dried seedheads. I think I will leave one to contrast with the 'Fireworks' goldenrod. But I'm moving one. It gets so big.

Yes, I like the idea of planting one of the dark foliaged cimicifugas near 'Madonna'. Chartreuse and burgundy/bronze foliage is excellent contrasted with each other, as long as there is plenty of balancing green. Too much variegated or non-green foliage can look very unnatural and 'sickly'. I had the dark Cimicifuga 'Hillside Black Beauty' planted in my old garden right next to a Japanese Full Moon Maple (A. shirasawanum aurem) and the combination was a knockout. The Cimicifugas bloomed in fall along with the japanese anemone 'Pamina' which is a saturated rose pink, and very striking as an all season combo

david - I looked up that maple, wow, that is stunning! My husband brought home 4 large pots, that will definitely be on my list of specimens to plant. Did yours get the orange fall color? I can see where that would be a striking combo with the anemone, another "new" one for me. Okay, any ideas what I can plant with my blackberry lily to really set it off? (Sorry lincolnitess, hee hee, thought you might enjoy this too!)

I do have some pictures of that combo somewhere which I will try to dig up. The fullmoon maple for me actually did not get very good fall color, and I have heard that from other people too -- basically just turned brown. There are some other basically chartreuse cultivars of A. sh. (August Moon is one) that are more reliable in terms of fall color.

And what to plant with blackberry lily? You mean Belacamda, right? The nice spiky erect foliage of that plant would look nice with anything mound like or lower in form. And the yellow or orange flowers would be set off by a purple or blue. So a perennial geranium (Nimbus, Rozanne) or a catmint (Walker's Low) would have a long season of foliage and form interest. Add something with spiky flowers, like Salvia 'May Night" or 'Cardonna' in a dark purple, and you start to have a garden............and that would go great in front of the Chartreuse foliage of Sambucus Madonna....

Great, I have catmint and salvia too, the lily I got in a trade, but I believe it's the orange one. I have been dwelling on a Tiger Eyes sumac for one of my pots...Thanks david!! I will try that and post a photo in spring.

I have used a lot of color in front of chartreuse. This is my favorite last year. 'Tiger Eye' Sumac with an 'Abe Lincoln' Delphinium in front. Another favorite chartreuse bush is the 'Sutherland' elderberry.

The sutherland.

Great pictures! I love chartreuse foliage too and like to plant blues and yellows together, including chartreuse foliage and bluish foliage. Sutherland gold is one of the best sources for chartreuse in the garden and a very strong growing sambucus for me -- my favorite of the colored foliage types. I had one in my old garden that even with coppicing got to 10-12' every year. I have not seen a mature tiger eyes but yours is fabulous! That one will be on my must have list. Chartreuse foliaged shrubs are also ideal scaffolding for blue-purple clematis, especially Sutherland Gold.

I do have a picture on line that is someone can show me how to do a link I can post a link.

Just right click on the image and "save picture as" then it will be in your pictures and you can post it to DG. Watch about copyrights. If you want to copy a link right click and choose "copy shortcut" then paste it.
This is a color combination I have liked. Bold solid color with varigated unique foilage.

Aw steve, that's gorgeous!

OK I'm trying. Here is Sutherland Gold, in morning light so less chartreuse looking, planted with 2 clematis, Roguchi on the lest and Perle D'Azur on the right -- the latter is growing on an arch but scrambles into SG too

Another example, on the left Sambucus SG, center Perle DAzur, right Betty Corning. Chartreuse foliage on shrubs is for me the most sublime background for anything blue or purple

david,
Those clematis are outstanding I can honestly say I have never seen any as robust and beautiful. What are you feeding those monsters?? I want to run right out and move all purple blooming vines next to chartreuse shrubs...hmm Callicarpa purple or white berries with what vine? kt

I am a big clematis fan and I think my old garden provided ideal conditions for growing clematis. The plants in this bed are growing on a clay subsoil but with 12-24" of good organic soil on top, developed gradually over 20 years. So the soil is relatively nutrient rich AND water retentive, which is I think what more than anything -- their roots deep in moist soil. I did feed them annually, if I was going organic that year, a mix of old manure if I had it, alfalfa pellets, greensand, cottonseed meal, same concoction as I threw on my roses. If I didn't have time to mess with all that a decent dose of Osmocote. But apart from the basics, I think the biggest thing is water. Everybody always emphasizes clems needing good drainage, but on the old GW forum when all the pros were there 5 years ago, many people reported the same thing -- water, water, water, retentive soil much better than perfect drainage.

Too soon to tell how clems will do in my much sandier soil new garden. We'll see. Sometimes I forget that the grass (or the clematis) CAN be pretty "green" in Michigan....

My neighbor grows Jackmanii in the crappy soil we have here, so I'm going to give it a shot, with lots of amendments, mainly leaves, since everybody's land up in my yard. david, do you have any of those left to trade?

david5311... aka... guy who is not afraid to transplant any tree or shrub under three stories.
I went back to work this afternoon after taking a gander at your super sonic clematis and found myself unable to focus on the task at hand. By my limited experience with clematis I would say you are 100% right on target with your assessment that "water, water, water, retentive soil much better than perfect drainage". Now here is my quandary I have a variety of a dozen or so 5-8 yr old clematis languishing in sandy nutrient poor soil. Would you (with your ever ready sharpened shovel) recommend I dig up and disturb the root system to improve the moister retentive nature of the soil or water, water, water, & equal additional fertilization? kt

Soil ammendment never causes loss. Well on any plant that you can move. My Clematis all are growing on heavy clay soil that was dumped on the perimeter of my house and called top soil. I have ammended it with top dressing of compost each year and the worms are making some pretty nice wet soil and pretty clematis.
Love the Blue and chartreuse david. I am going to do more this year.

is that the fall blooming kind? I really need to get some clems, I have the whole backyard fence to cover, LOL. My clay soil doesn't drain real well, so I am encouraged that, with amendments, I might be able to grow it.

No it is summer bloomer. I used this picture cause this is the clay with compost that I had next to the house. I did dig a big hole and ammend it with peat. I had lots when I planted my clematis. This is the Jackmanni

kt, I would say, don't dig up your clems, amend the soil heavilyy around them, good compost based mulch, old manure, alfalfa, etc, then water them deeply once or twice a week. There are SO many good clematis, the sky's the limit PrairieGirl, and clay soil becomes a boon rather than a bust because it is usually nutrient rich and retains moisture. Try the smaller flowered varieities, they are easy to grow, totally zone 5 hardy. They take about 3 years to get really established and growing well, but then they are long lived and among the most productive (of flowers) and rewarding garden plants. Betty Corning, in one of the photos above, is one of the most productive garden plants. A well established individual will bloom three months and produce thousands of flowers, season after season...

I love the nodding flowers on Betty Corning too, thanks david!