Flowering dogwood question...

I'm doing some landscape work for a lady here in town, and there is a spot where a flowering dogwood was removed because it died, 1 limb at a time. The original plant thrived in the spot for years and then slowly started declining. She was hoping to have another dogwood there, but I told her that may not be advisable, as there may be a disease or insect problem still present that killed the first one.

Any ideas as to what causes that slow, 1 or 2 limbs at a time, death of dogwoods? I've seen this before, usually on mature trees.

Can another dogwood be safely planted where this has occured?

What would be some other small, flowering tree suggestions for the site? It's in semi-shade and needs to be a specimen plant, as its a high impact area between the sidewalk and the house. I suggested that perhaps we try something with variegation or colorful foliage for all season interest.

Thanks for any help,
Neal

Hi Neal! I'm soo glad to see you on this forum, hopefully I'll start the ball rolling... I am somewhat dismayed to see that no one with more experience than I have, has posted a reply.

I had two flowering dogwoods at my old house, both planted in the parkway, what we call the strip between the sidewalk and the street. One died quite suddenly, while the other flourished. Since we don't know the specific cause of death your friend's tree, don't jump the gun by ruling out another dogwood. These things happen.

Cornus flower in spring, but are also noted for their fall color, making this a good time to pick a replacement. Have a you considered the kousa dogwood? Or were you looking for more native trees to choose from? What form (upright, weeping, round, spreading) and coloration would go best with your other plans? :0)

It sounds like dogwood borer. If this is the case then it is safe to replant. However I would caution the home owner to educate themselves so that they can recognize the early symptoms. Dogwood borer need not be fatal. I hade it here in my Cherokee Chief dogwood when it was young. Luckily I noticed it in time. I sprayed two years in a row when the adults were flying. The tree survived and it has never reappeared. I used Dursban.
www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/spfiles/sp290-c.pdf#search=%22dogwood%20borer%20spray%22


This message was edited Oct 10, 2006 7:02 PM

This message was edited Oct 10, 2006 7:04 PM

You can't teach an old Cornus new tricks.

Morehead is on the edge of the Cumberland Plateau and is the beginning of the Appalachian range; this part of the world is the heart of dogwood country. Unfortunately, there are as many problems that can beset a dogwood as you can shake a stick at. Borers are one; old and young trees alike can fall to their ravages and they are a native pest. Anthracnose is another; there are several forms with varying degrees of deadliness. Powdery mildew can also slowly sap strength from stalwart specimens. If the former tree lived a long life, that means conditions were positive for dogwood growth there.

I agree with everything PGZ5 and SnappyLube said above.

If there is only room for one plant, and your client is set on this species, I think you can confidently replant this species with the appropriate knowledge transfer of potential pest problems. If there is room for more than one tree in this category...you might consider suggesting planting a group of three and expand the flowering horizon (and protect against the unknown).

You could include:

•Cornus florida
•Cornus x rutgersensis
•Cornus kousa

There are multiple named clones of each of these to choose from. This would provide up to eight weeks of flowering period, within which you could vary flower color; foliage color; form; fruiting; fall color; and other fetishes. Wow: my sixth-letter-of-the-alfabet-list is flagrantly flaunted.

Or not.

How about the cross floridae & kousa? I just saw them at a local nursery.
Tam

Hi Tammy,

Those crosses are actually called Cornus x rutgersensis because they are the work of _________what's his name VV________, who was/is a professor at Rutgers and worked for years crossing C. kousa with C. florida. These are sometimes known also as the Constellation Series, because many (if not all) of them have the names of constellations or starts.

A cross from this same dude with great potential is a Cornus kousa x Cornus nuttallii hybrid called Venus. Paul Capriella and Don Shadow really raved about this one in their book and from the photos I have seen it deserves every accolade they could come up with. I actually have one, but it is too young for me to say much about it yet. Here is a picture I took of the one flower mine produced this spring.

Scott

Since Scott doesn't mind...I'll fill in blanks and mark up his post with red.

•The Rutgers hybrids were produced by Dr. Elwin Orton, fine fellow indeed (did lots with Ilex as well).
•Some of the Stellar® series (including the stars) are Aurora®, Stellar Pink®, and Celestial®.
•Paul Cappiello and Don Shadow probably also commented on the other hybrid partner of Venus which I have, which is named Starlight. Big flowers!

Thank you all for the great info!

Borers were the first thing that came to my mind too. A couple of years ago I'd seen the dogwood when one branch was dying out of it, but was'nt sure if borers attacked that way.

The Stellar series was the first that came to my mind as well, because I've been wanting one really bad myself. And I understand they're resistant to most dogwood pests. Showy fruit and fall color would be nice. Pricey, but I should definitely throw the idea out to her. Tammy, did you notice what that nursery priced them for? I'm curious for comparing.

While my client does love dogwoods, she's not opposed to trying something else. VV, I love the idea of a grouping of trees for a longer display, but there is'nt room (sounds like what I'd do in my yard though!). Actually, I thought the original dogwood was too big for the space. I've considered various magnolias, but I'm not sure if they'd provide enough impact year round. Have also been looking at Halesia diptera magniflora (Large-flowered silver bell) and some of the Styrax varieties, but I have no personal experience with either.

Thanks again all!
Neal

Would Enkianthus campanulatus work? Although when small it is definitely more of a shrub, it does eventually approach a nice layered tree form. You get a lot for your money with E. campanulatus, gorgeous spring flowering and screaming fall color and they are compact in size.

Here's a link you may find interesting:

http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/4DMG/Trees/seasons.htm

Sevon son flower is the most intriguing, in my humble opinion.

This message was edited Oct 10, 2006 10:49 PM

Oooohh, both Enkianthus and Heptacodium look like wonderful ideas! Enkianthus would provide the spring floral display as well as all season interest. The Seven sons flower looks to deliver a fantastic display throughout the autumn. Forest farm offers both at good prices too. Need to check Arbor Villiage; they have great stuff and shipping is much less (they're in Missouri).

Great suggestions!

PrairieGirlZ5, I really appreciate the link for Heptacodium. I am looking to fill a space in the front yard and this would be perfect. The hardiness is what I need. I have one Enkianthus in a protected spot and it does well, but Zone 5 is a stretch for it. Heptacodium fills the bill. Hi Ho, HI Ho, it's off to mail order I go! LOL

Glad I could help! I want to eventually fit one in somewhere around here, my husband is the seventh son.

He definitely should wield the shovel on that one.

Yes, I should give him one for his birthday! LOL

Snapple, Arbor Villiage has Heptacodium, 1 gallon, 3-4' for $15.

PG, have you ever ordered from them? I got some magnolias from them and was very pleased. They specialize in stuff that's hardy for the midwest.

I don't buy mail order plants Neal. But I like looking at the catalogs! You do realize that Heptacodium is rather rangy? I was worried later that you may have never seen a mature one.

http://shannongraphics.com/samples/images/plantmaterials/Heptacodium-miconioides-300.jpg

I appreciate the photo link for the Heptacodium. I very much like it's form. One persons 'rangy' is another person's 'lacy'. LOL I mail order nearly 90% of my stuff. The local nurseries, with one exception, carry massive amounts of a limited number of varieties. You can price shop but selection shopping is exceedingly limited. Looking out my front window at the results of a near total two year makeover I realized that I would have next to nothing if I didn't buy mail order. The nearest specialty nursery is a two hour drive one way. I make the pilgrimage every spring. Even the professional landscapers here go out of town for stock. This region is in an economic and a population decline, hence shopping for anything, not just nursery stock, gradually has become more and more limited. My mail order experiences have been very, very good, with one notable exception. Garden Watchdog is invaluable in providing information about the worthiness of mail order company. Once consulted, I do not hesitate to order.

Great to know, Snapple! The reasons I don't, have more to do with my own Finances and Lack of Self Control than with anything wrong with mail order nurseries. Chicago has pretty much everything, and is at the forefront of green landscaping for cities. Plus, we're very fortunate here at DG, if there's something I really need that I can't find here (or within an hour's drive), I just ask, and so far have been very lucky. ;-)

Aaaarrrrg, plant variety envy. Control, what's control? I fear I suffer from terminal "gotta have it" disease when it comes to plants. You can get really good bargains on the net. There are usually several sources available for the same plant. You would be surprised what you can save if you just click around. Incidentally, I believe the state of Illinois is quite advanced in all matters of agriculture, preservation of green space and horticulture including identifying and controlling invasives. You are lucky.

I'm sure when I actually have a paying job, it'll be a different story. To be continued...

While it may not work for my client, I love the form of the Heptocodium. I shared the info about Heptacodium and Enkianthus with a gardening friend of mine, and she thinks she found a Heptacodium growing here in town! She was driving, but nice fall color with white clusters of bloom sounds like it. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

PG, I sure do envy the variety of plants available to you! I can get a lot in Lexington or Louiseville, but the cool stuff is usually expensive, and the drive is often a hassel. Being cheap is the main thing that has made me a mail order fiend, lol.

I hear that! If wishes were horses...LOL

According to this link, seven-son flower does not have really great fall color, please post photo, as I've only seen the one on campus. (It's more like a large unkempt bush, cause they don't prune anything). That's why I'm including the link, it has specific suggestions on pruning and propagating. In which case, we all want one. Hee hee.

http://www.springmeadownursery.com/article_2.htm

Doh... I didn't watch the thread.

Neal - the nursery was selling those stellar dogwoods for $38. They were fairly small.
I'm gonna have to go back and get one or two.

And I love enkianthus! I've planted a few smaller ones I got from Rare Find Nursery.
If you mail order, you should check them out - they have a lot of more unusual shrubs
and trees. (I'm close enough to visit - 2+ hr drive - and these guys are definitely real
plant people. )

Tam

I have a Hepticodium and I'll never plant another. The whips that grow are 8ft/2m+ long and are succeptible to winter wind breakage, assuming summer t-storms leave the long stiff-leaved weak-wooded whips standing. We had a wicked wind this fall that took off oodles of the open panicles of opened flowers. The tree/shrub also gets cankers that kill the branch they are on. One thig is, it can be pruned out easily, but then the plant makes a bunch of whips at crazy angles. I prune it several times per year, once in the spring for shape, and once in the summer as the wind breaks the long whips. The fall "show" is way way over rated, with many of the calyxes turning brown and falling off instead of recurving and showing red. The only saving grace is the way it attracts pollinators in the fall. For a beekeeper, it would be a suitable plant, for a small area it is a waste of space. Give me a species Crabapple or an upright Viburnum any time. The peeling bark is a vile shade of gray, and the effect in the winter is of a dying plant.

Penn_Pete are you saying you don't LIKE it? LOL


From: Dirr's Hardy Tree and Shrubs" 1997 Timber Press Pg. 178

Heptacodium miconioides
Seven Son Flower

A new garden species, introduced from China by the Sino-American Botanical Expedition in 1980, this shrub has become the horticultural rage in the Northeast, and the Arnold Arboretum has done more than any other agency to popularize the species. It is a rather handsome plant, but one that I initially was not enamored with. After observing it over several years, however, I planted one in my own garden. The habit is multistemmed and upright-spreading with a cloudlike canopy. The 3- to 4-in. long dark green leaves emerge in early spring, around mid- to late April, and persist into November, but they do not develop appreciable fall color. The bark exfoliates to expose a light brown underbard. Pale, creamy white, fragrant flowers are borne on seven-tiered panicles from August into October. The real show occurs in October and November when the calyces (sepals) turn reddish--the effect is spectcular and long lasting. Best growth occurs in moist soils and full sun, but the species is adaptable to dry, acid soils and at least semi-shade. Use as an accent, in shrub borders, or in groupings. Grows 10 to 20 ft. high, slightly less in spread. Zones (4)5 to 8. China
end

Four photographs accompany the description, 3 in flower and one in leafless in winter. Well, well now Penn-Pete you have me on the horns of a dilemma. I truly trust your description and experience with this plant. I have a Salix integra 'Hikuro Nishiki' that has never lived up to its reputation in my garden, at least not without a monthly battle with the pruners. I appreciate your taking the time to post such an understated, reserved account of your experience. I am actually rethinking placing it where I had initially planned. However, I still am tempted to try it somewhere but I will definitely keep it out of the wind. You are right too about those viburnums and crabapples, dependable and glorius.

Mary

Thanks Postal Pete~ For going off on the Heptacodium! It sure does need pruning to look anything like what you think it "should" look like.

Mary~ Hikuro Nishiko may not last forever, so enjoy it ! I find all of the shrub willows pretty tempting, esp that one, dwarf blue arctic, and pussy willow. I have heard that Hikuro is fussy, don't know for sure.

Truthfully, if it was me, I would've bought another dogwood, they are so lovely when well-placed. Truly a four-season tree! The bark and form are interesting, the spring flowers, the lush summer green, the beautiful fall color, and sometimes berries.

Definitely NOT fussy. Want a laugh? Check this out, just prior to it's semi-annual pruning job. This blasted thing cost me a chipped tooth and a split lip. I weighted some of the larger scaffold branches with cement weights I made in paper cups to bend the bough, so to speak. It works, but if you look up into the sun when you are hanging the weights and you miss the branch with the hook and you let go and your mouth is open...............well it's popsicles and soup for while. Yeah, I know - pretty dumb.

Oh dear! Gardening is so very hazardous, people just don't realize?? What is the periscope looking plant on the left, coming out of the pond? I love your pond, can ya tell?? LOL

IThank You! I'm not certain what you are looking at. On the right of the trunk of the Salix is an irrigation head. Tall skinny black pipe with a slightly larger head. The big saucer leaves are Lotus. Mrs. Perry D. Slocum, first year, very nice large lotus. The picture is fall 2005. I planted a sweet potato vine back of the water fall and it was very, very happy back there. We built the pond ourselves. I did most of it myself. Hubby has a bad back and bad knee, better at writing checks and going "yes, dear" than design construct.

Well, he does sound like he provided an important service on that pond despite his
physical limitations. LOL

LOL Very important service! You did a fantastic job Mary, excellent choice of materials. It's great that you could borrow the neighbor's tall trees and conifers as backdrop as well. I believe it was the lotus I was admiring, now that I look twice at it, it's the same thing I have in a dried flower arrangement. Do you have Koi or goldfish in there? What are the rest of the plants in the last pic? If this is boring everyone else, d-mail me. I really don't think Neal would mind too much, since it's his thread after all, but I could be wrong.

I, too, don't wish to hijack a thread. Just give me the word and I'll scram. I will post a series of pictures. This is the garden at six years. Sould be finished next planting season. If you could look from the top down, the path into the garden starts up one side, going south and connects with a path running east -west. At the east end is an arbor, the west end is the pond (2000 gal) The pond has 9 koi ranging in size from 10 inches to over 20 inches and an assortment of goldfish. In the middle of the garden is a large canadian hemlock and two Fraser firs. They and two old oaks provide the backbone of the shade garden. The pagoda was a Christmas present. I nearly dropped dead. The gunnera leaf fountain I built myself with stuff that was kinda scrounged up. The plants really are the usual suspects: Picea abies 'Pendula', Malus 'Sargent Tina', Liriope, Festuca, assorted Iris, Hemerocallis, Hosta, Sedums, foxgloves, astilbes, Stachys, Pulmonaria,Tiarella, heuchera, peonies, and phlox. There is an Acer palmatum 'Ever Red' Picea orinetalis 'Skylands', Ilex crenata 'Sky Pencil' Ilex x meserveae 'China Girl', Azalea 'Northern Lights' Cornus kousa 'China Girl', Azaleas' Exbury - gold, white and pink, Pinus strobus 'Pendula', Juniperus X media 'Old Gold', Viburnum lantana 'Variegata', Cotinus coggygria 'Royal Purple' Caragena arborescens 'Pendula', Enkianthus campanulatus, Berberis thunbergii, 'Monlers Golden Nugget' and 'Helmond Pillar', Clematis tangutica 'Golden Tiara', Clematis 'Multi-Blue', Celmatis 'General Sikorski' Cornus florida 'Cherokee Chief', Matteuccia struthiopteris, Athyrium filifx-femina 'Frizelliae' (a favorite), tree peonies High Noon, Shintenchi (and a deep red whose cultivar name I have regretfully lost) and three hardy common rhodies. Whew, wore out my Latin typing fingers, both of em.

Looking east to the arbor.

This was stuffed in the back of our van in pieces under boxes. I drove around with my Christmas present for several days without knowing it. Christmas Day he set it up on our back deck and surprised me. The next week the neighbor kid egged it.

Raised fountain pool and shade walk.

This message was edited Oct 15, 2006 4:15 PM

Oh, don't stop! I'm loving it; your garden is beautiful and very inspiring! Inspiration is what I need here, lol.

Pete, good to know your experience! The stuff they won't tell you in the catalogs is what I need to know about these plants I have no personal experience with.

I have a shrub form of Hikuro Nishiko, but placed it with the fear of the monster I thought it may become, lol. The soil is rich and moist there, so I gave it plenty of room. That part of the shrub border is at the base of a wooded hill that faces north. So the pink and white variegation kind of glow with the dark woods behind them.

Aaaahhh, more pics while I was typing! Masterful job!

Better View

Ok, you need to do a garden tour, I think on the garden design forum, if you have'nt already. Everyone needs to see! That last one really made me drool.