those beetles!

I used a product called Surround at Home from Gardens Alive. In combination with Neem Oil, it was a pretty effective deterrent. Our Crepe Myrtles we absolutely devasted last year and they did very well this year

Here are the caveats: When used as directed, the product leaves a white film over eveything you treat it with. So it's not attractive. Since we grow some stuff for market, we didn't like to use it on those crops. Yes it washes off but we didn't want to sit there washing a bunch of veggies that we would just ordinarily pick and put into a basket.

Caveat number 2 is spray very regularly to keep up with new growth. If I didn't spray timely enough, the beetles just hung out on the new growth.. The treatment doesn't stand up too well to rain.

BB

BB, we *look* for the surround-treated fruit at market, because it's usually not loaded with pesticides. Funny, huh? A little poster explaining what the white film is and that it's an organic clay treatment might go a long way toward helping buyers choose your produce.

BB, we concur with Zeppy on the Surround treated fruit. We only buy from organic growers at our farmer's market. I rather have Surround on my fruit than chemical pesticides.

Zeppy, I'm going to add some food for thought here.....that perhaps a nutrient imbalance is making your (our) plants attract the beetles, borers & fungus...might seem off the wall but I think it's worth considering. I'm not suggesting that you rush out an by a refractometer to measure the BRIX (unless you are a market grower and can deduct as a business expense or just like to have more "tools").

We're only having minor insect damage now we've adjusted what we are feeding the plants and the powdery mildew has lessened dramatically since I added the calcium to the soil (gypsum).

I'm pasting in excerpts from the linked site as measuring the pH of your plant's sap might be within reach and very eye opening:


"Why not accept that bacterial & fungal (and insect) "attacks" are nothing more than nature sending her clean-up crews to remove malnourished tissues from the scene"


"American researcher, Bruce Tainio, has discovered that plant sap pH is a simple and accurate guideline for the following:
1) Enzymatic breakdown of carbohydrates (sugars) for plant growth and vitality.

2) Risk potential for insect damage.

3) Risk potential for foliar disease appearance (fungi, bacteria and viruses).

4) Nutritional balance in the growing crop.

5) Quality of fruit and vegetables.

6) Shelf-life of fruit and vegetables.

The desired sap pH-level for optimal plant growth and production is pH 6.4. If sap pH exceeds 6.4, then the most likely cause will be a shortage of the anions nitrogen, phosphate or sulfur. At pH 8 the likelihood of insect trouble is 100%.

Conversely, if sap pH is lower than 6.4, then there is a cation problem, with possible deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, potassium and/or sodium. Low sap pH suggests a far greater potential for foliar disease. For example, at pH 4.5 the probability for fungal appearance is 100%.
---as reported by Graeme Sait of Nutri-Tech"

Here's the link :
http://crossroads.ws/CRActive/PikeAg.htm

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply has a Brix Mix available in small 1 qt /3 lb sizes for the home gardener. You might want to try it on a section of your garden and see if the insect problems are fewer in the BrixMix treated section and see how the taste compares:

http://www.groworganic.com/item_F240_BrixMixLiquidQuart.html
http://www.groworganic.com/item_F235_BrixMixPowder3Lb.html



This message was edited Aug 7, 2006 9:54 PM

Adding this link to the japanese beetle thread from the organic growing site.
The "banana beer" technique sounded interesting and inexpensive.
If anyone tries it, please let me know how it works.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/435271/

I have Surround in my garage right now....wish it was a total cure-all for insects. Sure....healthy plants from healthy soil survive insects better than they would otherwise. Still, I am not convinced that it is a cure-all. When the locusts devoured the crops on the prairie a hundred and thirty years ago, there were few chemicals around and the soil likely was pretty good after thousands of years of grass. When the gulls came to the rescue of the Mormons in Utah that time, i suspects those hungry insects would not have descriminated on whether the plants were healthy or not.

We have a brix refractor and I used seaweed extract for micro nutrients, but it seems that bugs are still bugs here....and my soil is about 6.5 ph.

This message was edited Aug 7, 2006 6:51 PM

Indy, I did not mean to imply that fixing the plant nutrition was a cure-all. I look at it as part of an integrated program. It is doubtful any one thing could be considered a cure all. Plagues of locust are not the normal occurance (thankfully!). It's been interesting for me to see what the plants in our garden attract or repel as I change nutrients and add companion plants.

Did you test the pH of the plant sap as well as the soil? I'm curious how the sap pH compares. Do you see a noticeable difference in insect damage on your plants as the brix rises?

ok, anyone that is wanting to rid the JB's, and you are not going to eat the plant, our garden center highly recommends this product over liquid sevin. it is called Eight insect control for fruit, vegetable and flower. says it kills over 100 insects. the 32 ounce bottle was 26.99 and i used it used it in this wonder spray they sold me. fertilome is the brand and you can dail to tsp or tblsp. what concentrate you dont use, you pour back into the bottle. this is hooked up to the hose and it can shoot up to 40'. so you can spray your neighbors trees without her knowing because you dont have to stand right there. this is called a professional hose end sprayer and it only sucks up what concentrate it needs based on what you have dailed the mixing ratio to. its heavy duty and has brass fittings. youll have it forever. probably was 20-30.00. the Eight is by Bonide products. you can look at bonide.com for more information. i noticed a much better result than when i was using sevin. just should spray in late pm when the polinators are not as busy. it will kill anything alive.

the milky spore is a powder that is ingested by the grubs, kilss them then is multiplied when the grub decomposes, hence why it only gets better as years go on. this sprayer will spary powders too so i dont know why we couldnt apply that way. it would be something i should do earyl spring i would think... i say do both , eight now, and milky sproe later.

i used grub ex in the lawn but worried about my wonderful little wormy friends in the garden and beds. i dont want to kill them and grub ex will kill anything. we live on the lake and so grub ex is great for controlling the mosquitos and chiggers and fles etc. that bite my kids feet and legs when they are playing in the yard in spring and summer.

tell me what you think about this Eight.

I think I wish that I had not just bought a new bottle of Sevin!

You're right about the imidacloprid (Grub-Ex, Merit) being very toxic to earthworms. I don't think I'll be spreading it around my lawn again, although I will apply it around my new irises in spring as advised to protect against the dreaded iris borer.

Bonide Eight is Permethrin, same insecticide in Ortho Bug-B-Gone liquid. It is a broader spectrum insecticide than Carbaryl (Sevin). I doubt that it will kill everything, but it will kill a lot more types of insects than Sevin.

This message was edited Aug 8, 2006 10:40 AM

I use grug-ex only in /on grass and in pots .
I use the bottles you see at a pizza place that have chesse or peppers in them .
2 pieces of screen , 2 trowels of potting mix , 1 shake of grub-ex ,1 shake of espson salts and either 12-12-12 or 0-10-10 [ only for tubers , rizons - bulds ] -- then shake a little --a cup of H2o2 water [ 1/2 cup of 3 % H202 in a gallon of water ] another trowel of dirt and add plant - fill in with potting soil and bottom water . [ set whole pot in a 5 gallon paint bucket with water in it . ]Later I dust with either snail bait or DE .

crazyjansing, I hope you were only joking about spraying the neighbors trees/plants without her knowing. That would be tresspass. It could also endanger your neighbors health. I'd be furious if one of my neighbors sprayed chemicals on my plants or in my yard without my consent, especially if they did it intentionally.

Many chemical products like Sevin and Eight can be absorbed through the skin and affect someone's health long after they have been sprayed on the plant. I found this out the hardway through personal experience.

Garden it wasn't Crazy who wanted to do the trees it was me :)))) I don't think i would call it tresspassing though? her trees on on the border, and the leaves hang on my side.
I have trees in my yard that are being eaten alive ,they don't even have leaves!!!!!
what is a person to do??
Garden -Mermaid I m sorry to hear you had health problems with your experince :(
It is a tough call, do we let the bugs take over? or do we use some chemicals to kill them?
I like to use the orgnic stuff as much as posssible but it not as effective.
If i spray my trees with a pesticide will it effect the birds? Farmer do you know if it does.
Tony that is a beautiful yard !!!!!! i love it.
sue

Most pesticides available today do not affect birds, In fact most of them, available to home gardeners have litlle effect on humans. They are a lot safer than prescription or even over the counter drugs for example. An effort is being made to make them fool proof. Even so there are a lot folks who refuse to read labels and follow directions. These are the ones that cover the entire landscape with pesticides because they saw a bug, but have no idea what it was. This is a very BAD idea, whether it is an organically approved chemical or not. Botanicals are among some of the worst poisons. Fortunately most of these are also restricted. My advice to " organic" and traditional growers alike is to use IPM techniques. Identify the enemy, know his weak spots and attack where he is most vulnerable, Use a rifle rather than a shotgun. There is no need to kill eveything in sight, just the enemy.

Thanks, Dill....always great to see that reiterated. To add to that, the idea in bug management/control is to not feel the need to eradicate every bug, or even one single species, but rather to maintain a proper balance of "good" and "bad". IPM is well worth looking into as is a bit of reading regarding affects of poisons.

Sue, " I like to use the orgnic stuff as much as posssible but it not as effective.". Actually many 'organic' poisons are just as effective as the 'non-organic' however I won't use something simply because it is termed Organic.

As for the permethrum/pyrethroids, it is safe for mammals and is easily metabolized in the liver and broken down/removed. (I suppose if you drank a bottle of it you'll certainly has some ill side-effects though!) However, it is very toxic to fish/frogs, etc so should you decide to spray just make sure it doesn't go into the rivers, ponds, waterways, etc.

Shoe.

Thank you for setting me straight Sue. My apologies Crazy.
Sue, have you spoken to your neighbor about the beetle problem on their trees. Perhaps you two could work out a coordinated effort to deal with them.

Dill, I heartily agree that integrated pest management techniques are key, along with balanced plant nutrition. I use "fly on the wall" analogy similar to your rifle/shotgun one when dealing with chemicals, both in healthcare and in gardening. If a fly is on the wall and bothering you, you can open the door and try to wave it out with a newspaper (requires more effort on your part but is a benign treatment). You can also use a fly swatter to get rid of the problem. This takes less effort on your part but can leave a nasty squish mark on the wall that will then need to be cleaned up. You can also launch a rocket at it, which will quickly obliterate the fly, but you'll have to rebuild wall.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the concept that most pesticides available to home gardeners have little effect on humans. My personal experience and that of my patients has shown me otherwise. When the "wall" that needs to be rebuilt due to a chemical "rocket" is the liver and kidneys, life will be less than optimal, and often miserable, until things are back in balance.

I think that a pleasant and sensible discussion has taken place here on the subject .

Garden_mermaid, I have not checked the sap brix level. I have reacted perhaps on a bit of a defensive level about my feelings on bug infestations....chalk that up to GW where the organic crowd is a bit "hard nosed" imo. I believe it is far better to use a fly swatter on the problem than use a machine gun on someone who disagrees with you. I am still learning that the folks at DG are reasonable.

I also believe that rather than shoot the person who might use a pesticide, it would be far better to train them to use pesticides more safely and more in the IPM mode.

When it comes to JBs, I find that out here in the country since there are seemingly endless numbers of those beetles in my area including the fields for miles around that it pays to learn their habits. The best way would be to treat the whole state with Milky Spore I suppose. Barring that it pays to have trap crops like plum trees, wild grape vines, and hibiscus type plants. That way they leave all my garden vegetables alone year after year.

So I kill those beetles as best as I can. I trap and bag them by the tens of thousands...dead beetles will no longer eat and lay eggs. I pick off them daily. I also kill them on the trap crops. I have wild grape vines on the fence between me and the farm fields plus tall grass. I leave this to help shield against herbicide spraying in the field which has been done twice yearly. My second cousin and grandsons are careful too for my sake and they allowed me to hand spray adjacent to my garden when conditions are more perfect to do that.

Garden Mermaid, "We'll have to agree to disagree on the concept that most pesticides available to home gardeners have little effect on humans." Well, I think I'll agree to agree with you, not necessarily disagree. I know this may sound contradictory to my above post (regarding pyrethroids) but my statement was based on lab evidence (or so "they" say!). I'm just glad that if a synthetic pyrethroid has little effect on mammals then the good health of many folks will be maintained, however it should be understood that directions should be followed. (Most likely because all the lab tests were based on diluted amounts?)

Funny thing for me is, as I type these words, I've NEVER used a permethrum. Having been involved in the "organic world" since Day One I've never even used an herbicide like RoundUp. ( I couldn't even tell you how to use 10-10-10- fertilizer because I've never become acquainted with it!)

Some years back I used a product with rotenone in it (it is consider organic, not synthetic) and the next year was when the studies found out it played an important role in contributing to Parkinson's Disease. This was a shock to many in the Organic World because back then it was just the given that "organic is safe". Hah! (And now, latest research is trying to prove it doesn't...go figger.)

Love the analogy of the 'liver and kidneys/wall being rebuilt', Mermaid. Over-exposure to many things, synthetic or "organic" certainly taxes our bodies and lives. Thanks for your input.

Shoe.


edited to add: Indy, I guess I was typing (long-winded, here!) while you posted.

You shouldn't feel like apologizing or defending your stance on trapping/killing JB's. You sound like you are really inundated with them. And in your case it certainly sounds like the JB traps will help do you justice! Sic 'em!

As for the "organic folks" at GW being hardnose/snobs, don't worry. You'll find very few like that at DG. The gardening world involves all kinds of folks, techniques, questions and answers. Fortunately the DGers, for the majority, are extremely open-minded and non-attacking. As for me, I like your input! Please feel comfortable.

Shoe.

This message was edited Aug 8, 2006 7:08 PM

Indy, we're having record trouble here with the JBs as well throughout the entire state, so I sympathise. Sometimes bad things happen, right? Sometimes we get sick, and we haven't necessarily done something to make ourselves sick. Likewise in the garden. Hang in there! I'm fighting the same battle... though it sounds like you're working harder than I am. Out I go to knock more beetles into the bucket...

Thanks Shoe and Zeppy for the nice replies. I will add that we can come across so many toxins, poisons, and unhealthy "foods" these days. I am glad that I can afford to take a large number of anti-oxidant supplements along with the usual vitamin, mineral, blood sugar, blood fats, and some other nutrients. I feel that is a lot better than getting down sick and being fed "chemical" drugs. Sure drugs can be a life saver, but why not use some IPM so to speak on ourselves before we are at the mercy of "the system".

'Use some IPM on ourselves'.... excellent point! Love it!

Shoe.

Do i dare say "we opened up a can of worms on this subject" LOL :)
good idea Indy :)
sue

on this site it's most likely a can of earthworms (*grin*) so it's a healthy sign.

I didn't mean to sound hardnosed on the organic topic......if our ability to feed our families is on the line, sometimes we need to launch a rocket. Knowing I'd have to rebuild the wall (and maybe part of the roof, and need hearing aids after the "boom") is a strong incentive for me to keep the rocket as an action of desperation and last resort.

It's been an interesting and inspiring experience to see how my garden responds as I work to move it into a balanced state.

yeah

I did fnd an old rose bush with a ton of beetls on it, no flowers just old vine, i keep yanking it out but it keeps comming back , sos i guess i will use it as a trap crop, seems to be working
I did have a JB bag trap, got full in 5 days, yuk what a stench too. Cant find the other bag aaaghghgh.
Could i use any ol bag or do i need one of the JB bags.? It is a bit of a way to the store just to get some refills again at the price of gas , that would be one expensive bag. LOL wont be going to the store until monday. Country living . :))))
sue

It got full in 5 days? Ours fill in about 5 hours, Sue. Count them smelly little blessings!

We are going to try a heavy trash bag. I compost the dead beetles.

Compost you say Zeppy huh never thought about that. good to know
when i was butting the bait in, about 30 of them swarmed me , i got scared and ran back in the house and called my neighbor LOL, im such a wuuuuusssssss. :)
sue

Sue, if it took you 5 days to fill your trap, you are less plagued with them than we've been.... Last year, I put out 2 traps in the back and sometimes had to change bags twice in one day!

You can't really use "just any ol bag" as the shape is important to trapping them. A friend of mine got tired of paying for replacement bags, so she used an empty bag as a template, traced the outline on a heavy-duty garbage bag, and sewed it together on her machine (fairly tight zig zag stitch, I think)... if you sew the 2 sides together before cutting out from the garbage bag, it'll be easier to work with. She was also able to make longer bags this way so she only had to change them once a day.

Awesome Critter !! I m getting my new sewing machine this weeked, i htink it has 250 stitches and then about 20 quilting stitches.
WOW do you have beetls :( I wont complan anymore about my JB's. :)))
thanks Critter
sue

I vaguely remember that as a kid back in NY in the early 50's, we collected JB's in bottles and collected a small bounty on each. It was terrible then, not too bad now here in SW Missouri. They seemed to peak in early July mostly on my green beans, but I haven't seen any in several weeks. Even at their peak here there weren't enough to do serious damage.

My biggest problem are the tiny flea beetles on eggplants. If you let them get going on transplants you can kiss them quickly goodbye. This, however, has been by far the best eggplant year for me ever. My plants are a good four feet high and loaded with fruit. We love eggplant parmigiano and have it twice a week.We also eat caponata all the time. Nothing like fresh veggies.
Dave.

I suspect that the Mississippi River has slowed the westward advance of JBs. Some people have remarked here and there that the beetles are not so bad after the first wave..HAH!! They finally lessen in September around here.
I rinse and reuse the bags dozens of times.

I used to guy those bags and bait, i had way more beetles then. Now i watch for the 3rd week of June,spray with the first sign of them, then again when the chemical warrants reapplication...tons less without the bait. Lowes and HomeDepot arent making as much on me either.

For those of you having a major plague of JBs this year, is this typical for your area or is it worse this year, possibly due to the weather?

Any possibility that you could approach your town councils with a proposal for a community wide milky spore program? Or maybe organise your immediate neighborhood so that you might be able to get some volume discounts in purchasing the stuff?

We first got the JBs about 15 years or so ago...at least to my knowledge. Basically it has gotten worse. One field was even sprayed by aircraft this year. Three years ago it was a little worse on my place though.

I have done my part to kill them off. Perhaps if more people were working on the problem, it would be moderate. Milky Spore is great in certain situations, but it needs to cover more of an area .....not just a yard or two among many yards.

There are JBs out in the fields everywhere here. However, they are mainly around the perimeters. I think they hatch out mostly in sod and then land on the first rows of soybeans they come to....edge of field.

A coordinated community effort would be needed............................

I remeber in CA in the 80's we had fruitflys, they would spray with helicoppters with malathion, we could hear them at night. My mom would get so mad at us if we were not in before the spraying. LOL .
Yes that does sound good idea the neighrohood community effort to apply milky spore. Would it work for people with lots of acreage? we have several? It ain't country till you got bugs.
sue

This is what my community did when I was a kid. There was absolutely no problem with the beetles after this for at least 15 years.

taynors, I remember the mediterranean fruitfly epidemic and helicopters spraying malathion. The government agents were pulling all fruit off of the trees in everyone's yard, whether or not a fruit fly or maggot had been found. The malathion ruined everyone's car paint and made a lot of people sick. Of course, at that time, Santa Clara Valley was the "Valley of Heart's Delight" and still had orchards instead of technology parks. It's pretty sad that the last remaining orchard in Sunnyvale is a "heritage perservation site" purchased by the city.

I googled around on the milky spore powder and found some on currently sale at this site from Healthy Highway. The 40oz can is $60.75 versus the usual $80 per can.
http://healthyhighway.com/Products/HH701/HH701.htm?source=google

Application rate appears to be 10 oz per 2,500 sqft or 40oz per .25 acre. I can see how this can get expensive if you have several acres to treat.

The milky spore powder is manufacturered by St Gabriel Laboratories.
http://www.milkyspore.com/msporefaq.htm

I'd suggest calling the manufacturer to see how much you need to order to get wholesale pricing. If you can get your neighbors or community together to treat the general area, you may have a large enough order to get it at wholesale, or if a municipality does the ordering, perhaps they have some sort of "government pricing discount", or a purchasing agent that can negotiate pricing. If the beetles are eating your landscaping, they are also eating the sub or urban landscaping as well, right?

Just a thought.

Thanks for finding those links!

I'm glad to know you no longer have to dig little holes to apply the powder like my dad did (maybe he was just an overachiever)... The spreader mix is even more appealing, but at 3-4 times the cost (you need 6 applications of spreader mix), I think I'd probably go with the powder.

I'll have to chat up my neighbors... sounds like early fall is a good time to apply it. I don't think our JB problem will reduce until the fields behind us are developed, but that will be happening in the next couple of years. Since it takes a couple of years for milky spore innoculation to reach full effect, that means this year or next year would be a good timing for doing it.

good luck critter!
Maybe the city could persuade the developer of those fields to treat the area as well.
Could be a selling point for the new houses - no JBs!

Garden , I grew up in Palo Alto ! LOl before the yuppies epidemic LOL I remember it well. LOl ")
I will look into those sites you gave , it sounds like a great idea.
thanks
sue