Ever wonder why commercial tomato seed germinates so well ?

We start a lot of tomato seed - I mean a whole lot 20,000+/- so far this year. And let me tell you - commercial seeds have far better germination rates - we experienced better than 99% with one particular variety. Plus seedlings are far more vigorous than those from small heirloom seed companies. But we don't think it has anything to do with the plants being OP or hybrid, in our opinion it has to do with the way the seed is collected. We bought "Cherokee purple" and "Hillbilly" from 'Holmes Seed' this year and they germinated like champs - just as good as the latest hybrids from 'Harris Moran". Holmes doesn't use the over ripe method and neither does Harris Moran - both of which tout germination rates over 90%.

Large seed companies don't harvest seed from over-ripe fruit, they take the seed from fruit in the "breaker stage" and this makes a big difference in our opinion. I read a study a few months ago that supported this claim and it has been obvious in my own experience.

Without fail, every time we experience poor germination it is with seeds taken from over ripe fruit.

Does anybody have any thing to add to this subject ? I cant find much research on the subject and havent had time to do my own - this is a theory of ours more than a proven fact. But when you start seeds from two different companies and one has 99% germ. and the other has 70% germ. you start to wonder what they are doing differently.

I know that letting the fruit get over ripe on the vine is the traditional way to save seed and it does work - I would just like to get better results from small companies' seeds because that is who has all the nice varieties.

Better germination equals more plants from fewer seeds and that is something that can benefit growers on every scale.



This message was edited Jun 12, 2006 8:30 AM

This is interesting as I start most of my own plants from seeds. I also fly in the face of 'traditional' horticulture practices.

In my case its more because of the climatic differences..but I really think you are on to something. The seeds should be ready as soon as it starts breaking--makes sense; that's when birds start distributing seed.

Thanks for the reply, dmj1218. We are going to be saving some seed from breakers this year, too. It will be nice to compare notes.

I think it makes a difference. ... You can see the difference. Place two seeds, one of each method, in front of either one of us and we can tell you which is which - every time. The seeds taken from breaker fruits are much fatter, not as flat. And they are also much neater and cleaner, especially around the edges. Another difference is that seeds from a breaker fruit do not stick to the container like the seeds taken from ripe fruit. And dealing with such large numbers of seed, that factor makes our lives a whole lot easier. They just "tap" right out of an envelope. I bet they would work much better in a vacuum seeder as well.

Good luck, dmj1218. We have got about 7 or 9 cats that we would be glad to rent you if the birds pose to much of a problem!! Oh, and by the way, hats off to ya for flying in tradition's face!

Anybody else have any knowledge/opinions/misinformation they would like to share on the subject?

Okay, I am new and ignorant. What is breaker? I have many heirloom plants and plan on saving seed, mostly tomatoes. Can you explain?

Hi, defoecat. A 'breaker' is a tomato that has just begun to turn red - usually breakers have just a little blush on the blossom end. Hope that clears things up for you. Good luck and good growing.

So you think the better germination rate is from the breakers? I have many heirloom plants and plan to save seed, and have previously used the ripe fermentation method. I just may do an experiment this year with breakers, ripe, and seed treated with the dust.

Has anyone tried the "breaker" method to other varieties of plants...e.g. flowers...rather than wait for them to dry "on the vine" take pods that are still mostly green?
Thanx,
ddensmore

Yes, defoecat, that is exactly what i think. If you do an experiment we would love to hear the results - keep us posted and good luck.

ddensmore - We don't grow many flowers and we don't save any flower seed at all. It might not make a difference with flowers because they aren't "wet" like a tomato. But hey, its worth a try and an interesting question. You ought to try it - we would love to hear the results.

Another thing that impressed us was the seedling vigor of the 'breaker seeds'. We had two trays(288ct) of heirlooms taken from breakers and their vigor was even greater than the hybrid seed that was harvested in the same manner.

We wish we could buy heirloom seed harvested from breakers. It would benefit us as well as the seed grower. The seed grower would have seed available earlier and would lose less seed fruit to birds and such - that equals better profits for the seed growers and better seeds for us!!

This message was edited Jun 13, 2006 11:19 AM

I am going to do the experiment. Of course it will be next spring for the results.

I read that when seed from fruit experiences the fruit rotting, the seed starts to go dormant, and that it's important not to let any fruit stick to the seed when you are harvesting it, because that will clue the seed into dormancy. I believe this was in Norm Deno's seed germination in theory and practice book. This fits in with what you're saying about seed from breakers germinating faster than seed from fermented ripe fruit. This also fits with my experience of another fruited plant in the nighshade family, mandrake. Mandrake seeds with pieces of fruit stuck to them are alive (they don't rot) but they won't germinate in any reasonable amount of time (less than a year).

Great post, paracelsus. That makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for sharing.

I wondered why the seeds from the 'Purple Calabash' had some really good germination, compared to the others that I saved last year! Now I know why; they were "breakers."

I tested a few & voom! They were off like gangbusters. I actually thought that they might not be as fertile as any of the others I had done the "traditional way."

Thanks for the info kyle_and_erika!

~* Robin

PS: Yes, they were much cleaner & fatter too, I thought that meant that they would be "under-ripe" (not viable.) Interesting find.
*** My daughter has been named Aly_Kyle for her soldier boyfried.

This message was edited Jun 23, 2006 10:41 PM

Thanks so much, NatureWalker, that is some great information to know. I hope everything is going well in your garden.

I have been saving a few seeds the past few days from breakers but havent started any yet. I should be able to do a side by side in another week or two.

I would love to hear from anyone who has any experience or thoughts on this subject.

Thanks,
Kyle

When collecting seeds from tomatoes what is the best way to do it? I would like to try it for the first time this year, but I would think it's a messy job with all the pulp. Do you just let the seeds dry or do you "wash" them? Please tell me how it's done.

Thanks!
JoAnn

JoAnn,

Traditional methods.....

Horseshoe's Garden Diary: Fermenting Tomato Seeds http://davesgarden.com/journal/d/t/Horseshoe/1109/

dave's Journal: Tomato Fermentation HOWTO http://davesgarden.com/journal/j/viewentry/7740/

Thanks you too guys!

~* Robin

Robin,
Thanks so much! Those are great tutorials.

JoAnn

*~~]:^) -- (Red Hat Lady)

~* Robin

ddensmore, seeds can be cut away from the plant as soon as the flower -- every part of the flower -- have completely dropped away from the pod. Once having said that, there are some rules you need to follow. One is some plants need to be put in a jar or vase like cut flowers to ripen. Phlox and daffodils are one of these. Others just need to be put in a shallow dish in a low humidity environment like sidalcea and moss roses. Some seeds take seemingly forever to lose the vestige of bloom such as roses. Unfortunately, I haven't done any kind of stufy on this and can't tell you which is which.

Rule Two is you must let them open and split naturally. No cheating. No fondling. No stashing them in envelopes or other closed environs.

I got this information from a full professor of botany at one of the big Califonia State Universities. He didn't mention fruiting plants like tomatoes at all, and I don't know if they follow the same rules or not.

Suzy

kyle_and_erika,

This is a very very valuable thread.

In answer to your question "Every wonder why...?" YES!

I have noticed that some of my tomato seeds do not seem to have the same germination rates as the "store bought" seed. Sure I can coax and trick them into germinating with less than production methods, but very limitied side-by-side comparisons seem to indicate the same results you have experienced.

I am going to collect a few breakers for seed and do some research next year.

Please take the time to keep us posted everyone.

For those of you collecting tomato seeds from breakers, are you also fermenting the seeds or are you washing, drying and storing them?

jjpm74 wrote:

Thanks for the tips, Naturewalker. I'm still pretty new to this. Last year, I collected my plumb tomato seeds and had about a 75% germination rate this year which was the best rate I've had to date. I don't know if that's good or bad.

Why the second step NatureWalker?
2) washing them of with peroxide water.

Thanks
Zarcanat

I had read the tomato fermentation thread last week and actually started it the other day using black cherry, sweet gold and mortgage lifter. I had plannned on doing some others this weekend. But I used ripe tomatoes not "breaker" stage. I also noted in going back that the pics show ripe tomatoes.

Maybe I should do some of each (ripe and under-ripe)if I want a better chance of germination ??

This is my first time trying to save tomato seeds. Thanks for all the info !!!

~Julie

Sorry for not posting sooner Zarcanat; I'm not ignoring you. Just outside these past few days taking cuttings.

Any scientific prof of this virtues? If it really works, I will doing this from now on. I really like D'sG, I am learning a lot more than in school, from real people in real life LOL!