Container Soils and Water Movement in Containers (long post)

Hebron, KY



This message was edited Apr 30, 2007 6:42 AM

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Al, the Turface as you describe it almost sounds like either the (can't think of the name) red rock that people use for a dressing in their flower beds, or the lava rock you use in BBQs. OR, are they one and the same?

Come to think of it, why couldn't you use the lava rock in place of the pine bark?

Jeanette

Hebron, KY

Al,

Thanks for your help regarding the hibs, but I decided to return it to Lowe's and grow something that I'm more familiar with.

Marilyn

Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

I found it useful and will certainly try it. I have been learning to modify the mixture and micronutrients to suit the particular plants. My biggest success so far has been with Hibiscus.
Thankyou
rj

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Ohhhhh Marilyn - They're not that difficult at all! We're talking about fine tuning their culture here. You needn't think that you need to provide anything all THAT special. ;o) I'd encourage you to try them with the organic fertilizer you suggested before you edited. I'm sure that under your care they'll flourish.

Jnette - I think "redrock" is crushed red granite & holds very little moisture and would be poor at holding nutrients. Crushed pumice (aka lava-rock) is similar to Turface & is often substituted as long as the size is appropriate. You want the particles to be in the 1/8 inch range.

Al

Brainerd, MN

This is indeed a long and technical post -- and obviously a very thoughtful post -- but I'm wondering if anyone out there is able to sum it up in a paragraph or two. While the WHY is technically significant, I'd simply like to know the WHAT. What's the bottom line? What should I be doing differently? I'm still in the baby-step stage of learning about gardening and this is rather overwhelming.

(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

I'd guess the why of it is for stronger, healthier plants.

West Pottsgrove, PA(Zone 6b)

Plants need drainage, and tapla has shown us some ways to provide it. Try the mixes in the first post!

SE Houston (Hobby), TX(Zone 9a)

A LAYMAN'S EXPLANATION
Putting bottom fillers (styrofoam, rocks, ducks) in a container only partially filled with growing medium (soil, dirt, potting mix, etc.) RAISES the water table level in the container, such that the water will pool at that higher level, not drain out completely, and cause your plant's roots to remain shallow and/or begin to rot.

Filling the container completely with your growing medium LOWERS the water table, allows the plant's roots to go deeper to reach the water below, and facilitates proper water drainage through the growing medium, and out the bottom of the container.


Hope this helps....tapla, did I get it?

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Pretty darn close, Gymgirl. ;o)

Michaelangelo - what you should do is what works best for you. If things aren't working, most often you can look at the relationship between your soil and watering habits. The best advice I can give is : Before you establish a container planting, be certain the soil holds, and will continue to hold adequate air for the intended life of the planting. All other cultural requirements are easily manipulated by the grower - soil aeration is the only one you cannot easily change.

If you have specific questions - ask away. Someone will be able to answer.

Al

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Tapia,

I mixed the recipe for one batch to plant my tree peony in and it looked like mostly bark. Did I do it right? It looked funny. Not the planted tree that looked funny. The mix looked funny. The tree looked wonderful planted.

Jeanette

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Well, it IS mostly bark. ;o) What size were the chunks? If you're on the rainy side of the mountains, it's likely that an additional part or half part of perlite would be of benefit to you, Jeanette. Tree peonies would also benefit from a healthy helping of Turface or another, similar product you can find in your area called "Play Ball". Another good amendment for woody plants is 1/8 - 1/4 pumice or lava rock. Any of these last ingredients could be used instead of perlite.

Al

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Anywhere up to 2 1/2 inches. Not a whole lot that big tho. No, I'm on the East side of the mountains. And, I put about 1/2 a gallon of peralite in it, about the same manure, and probably 2 or 3 gallons of pro-mix. Because of the size of the pot more than anything. That was besides the CRF and lime.

I gotta admit it did look good. Now, what is the Play Ball? Al, do you know anything about a product called "Dynamite"? It is a CRF that activates in the low 50s rather than the low 70s. That, and another product called Enviromoss, a peat moss substitute that starts out as manure and bedding and is the leavings after the Methane gas is used to generate electricity and it's a brown fiber like peat moss but is not hydrophobic and rewets.

These 2 products were the subjects of an article in the gardening section of our newspaper yesterday. I don't know if they are on the market yet tho. And, the way I described them is a very condensed explanation.

I did not realize that about the Osmocotes etc. and the low 70s activation. The temp of the soil here would not reach that until mid June or later. So, the Dynamite would be a real plus for us.

Jeanette

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Also the Dynamite is good for 9 months rather than the 4 o 6 like the others and has nutrients in it besides the regular NPKs.

Al, would you mind starting a part 2 of this? It really takes a long time for us dial ups to do anything when it is this long.

Thanks, Jeanette

Columbus, OH

Al, what is fast moving and slow moving soil?

Thanks
confussedlady

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Jnette - I'm unfamiliar with the fertilizer or the "moss" product you mentioned, so I can't really comment. I would want to assess how quickly the "moss" breaks down in soils before I would consider using it. Stability is extremely important in container soils.

Release time varies with different fertilizers and other manufacturers offer blends that release for longer periods than you regularly see - 18 months, e.g., so that part isn't a particular advantage.

I'm not sure how starting a new thread works when this one is a "sticky". Perhaps someone from Dave's has a suggestion.

Confused - A "fast" soil is one that holds lots of air and drains "fast". A "slow" soil is the flip side of the coin - it holds little air, holds water tightly, and drains slowly. Water tables are higher in slow soils and root rot a more frequent issue.

Al

Brainerd, MN

Thanks for the summaries Gymgirl and Tapla!

And in case anyone got the impression that I was being critical of the length of Tapla's post, my apologies, but that was not my intention. I'm just looking for the simplified bottom line of what to do because I find all of this very confusing... so thanks again GymGirl and Tapla for giving us that.

A couple of clarifications:

In the past two years I've gardened I've used sytrofoam peanuts. Is the basic idea here to continue to use some sort of drainage bedding but in a larger, deeper pot, or is it about eliminating the bedding entirely? And does this mean water actually drains just as well without the bedding? As you mentioned Tapla, I already add additional holes on the side of my plastic containers.

Is the recipe you’ve given pretty much a good one for Dahlias (grown from seed), peppers, impatiens and herbs? I do think they prefer certain kinds of soil. Many Dahlia sources say to add sand.

Last year I used near-rectangular shaped plastic waste cans for herbs. My books says they should be in 8" deep pots but these waste can pots were 14" deep and the herbs did very well -- so is this an example of how a deeper pot helps with drainage and root health?

Also, is a product that is called "Manure with Composted Humus" (.05-.05-.05) a potting soil? The person at the box store said it is and it kind of looks like one (although it's VERY clumpy) but I'm a bit suspicious. Other than the (.05-.05-.05) there are no labeling details about the product. I don't understand why it's called "Manure with composted Humus" instead of "Compost Humus with Manure."

Thanks again for your clarifications and, in advance, for any further help you can give.


(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

Happy Birthday, Al. Thanks for all the help you've given all of us.

Generally people post photos of flowers for birthday people but I thought a shot of three of our six compost bins would be more fitting for your special day.

Thumbnail by pirl
SE Houston (Hobby), TX(Zone 9a)

Pirl,
Those are sooooooooooooooo neat. Do you happen to have the building specs? Seems simple enough to build. So totally neat on your landscape! Thanks for posting.

(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

My DH is outside but I'll ask him. I'm sure they came from a book. They're one of two sets of compost bins he built. The umbrella base is there because he sits and chips for three days at a time and needs some shade.

(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

These are the other three.

Thumbnail by pirl
Hereford, TX(Zone 7a)

Those are real nice!

I need to redo my bins, so I would like to have the specs as well.

Darin

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Pirl, I was trying to see if that wire was between the three? In other words walls? How does he get air to them? He must really build up muscles turning them. Bet he is great shoveling snow. LOL

Maybe they aren't as big as they appear. However, I know there are compost stirers but don't think they are automatic.

Jeanette

SE Houston (Hobby), TX(Zone 9a)

Jeanette,
I think that is mesh wire on the outside two walls, on either end. Probably not inbetween, though, for strength to hold it up. But, maybe so, and the wood frame holds it up.

Pirl,
Do the fronts just lift out?

Kingston, OK(Zone 7a)

Lets get back to soils and water.
Al
what is your opinion on this?

Kiln dired calcium bentonite clay (Kitty Litter in Red bag at Walmart)
This is the exact same stuff used in the "aquatic soils sold very expensively in the garden centers! It will not dissolve.

Can this b e used in containers also?
.

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Ohh! Thanks for the b-day wishes, Pirl. Really appreciated! ;o)

OK - Back on track now .....

Michaelangelo -

In the past two years I've gardened I've used Styrofoam peanuts. Is the basic idea here to continue to use some sort of drainage bedding but in a larger, deeper pot, or is it about eliminating the bedding entirely? And does this mean water actually drains just as well without the bedding? As you mentioned Tapla, I already add additional holes on the side of my plastic containers.

Drainage layers are ineffective as an aid to drainage whenever the particulate size in the drainage layer is more than 2.1x the size of soil particles. When the size disparity is great, the water "perches" (like a bird on a branch) in the soil immediately above the drainage layer. The only accomplishment is raising the level of saturated soil in the container and increasing the o/a % of saturated soil. The reason people think it works is because they are growing in a smaller volume of soil, so the soil holds less water by volume than if the container was filled with a soil that drains well. The plant uses the water faster and people say, "Hey - this drainage layer really works!" The fact is, it seems to work because they reduce the o/a volume of soil they grow in.

Is the recipe you’ve given pretty much a good one for Dahlias (grown from seed), peppers, impatiens and herbs? I do think they prefer certain kinds of soil. Many Dahlia sources say to add sand.

Very good for dahlias, and impatiens. Peppers, and particularly herbs would still do fine in it, but they would do better with the addition of something gritty - like Turface, crushed granite, haydite, pumice, large swimming pool filter sand (1/2 BB size) all in around 1/8 inch size. Fine river gravel would work fine, too. They tend to like a more spare soil with extra good drainage.

Last year I used near-rectangular shaped plastic waste cans for herbs. My books says they should be in 8" deep pots but these waste can pots were 14" deep and the herbs did very well -- so is this an example of how a deeper pot helps with drainage and root health?

The 8" suggestion is just a rule of thumb. If the soil is right, you could grow them on a flat rock slab (soil mounded) or in a 1" deep pot. Deeper containers will always have a higher % of unsaturated soil, making them easier to grow in. Easiest of all is a deep container that is wicked to remove unwanted water at the containers bottom.

Also, is a product that is called "Manure with Composted Humus" (.05-.05-.05) a potting soil? The person at the box store said it is and it kind of looks like one (although it's VERY clumpy) but I'm a bit suspicious. Other than the (.05-.05-.05) there are no labeling details about the product. I don't understand why it's called "Manure with composted Humus" instead of "Compost Humus with Manure."

There's no way to tell what it is, but it's meant to go in the the garden or beds & not in a container. I'd also point out that .05 means 5/100 of 1% and should really be written as .0005. Saliva has at least that much nutrient value. ;o) I've seen both sedge peat and black sand sold as composted manure. There are no content % guidelines, so as long as the product contains ANY manure .....

Al







Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

TA - if you are sure it's fired at a high enough temperature that it's stable, you can use it. It would be similar to Turface (also a kiln-fired clay) in its physical properties. The other consideration is size. Ideally, 75% of the particles would be in the 3/32 to 1/4 inch size.

Al

Washington, MO(Zone 6a)

Tapla,

I'd have to agree that users on dialup would have a bit of a time with long threads, such as this one. You could simply start another thread, with the same Subject, appending it as (Part 2). I'm sure a mod would have no problem making the second thread a sticky one.

Ahh, one of the drawbacks to web-based forums. I'm still old school (newsgroups), but consider this site a valuable resource, and it's the only web-based forum that I frequent. =)

Please start a new thread for the dial-uppers out there. I'd hate to see them stop following it and miss out on the great information, because of time constraints! =)

Eggs

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Got it covered - will be editing the original post. Please give me a few days - am up to my elbows in repotting & garden. ;o) Thanks for all the participation!

Al

Oakland, OR(Zone 8a)

It's a real pleasure, and thank you Al. Dotti

Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

I know I'll never use drainage material in pots again. All of the plants repotted with wicks are much healthier, bigger, brighter and happier.

(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

As soon as I get all the information needed I'll start a thread on the Compost forum, hoping there is one!

Brainerd, MN

Tapla, Thanks so much for the further explanation. Some of it's actually starting to sink in (and not drain out).

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

You're welcome.

For those with dial-up connections that wanted a new thread, you'll find it here:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/719569/

It's my understanding that posting to this thread will be terminated soon and the new post made a "sticky". Thanks to all for providing the interest while I had fun!! ;o)

Al

Fulton, MO

The other option, and I think it is an attractive one, is to condense this thread into an article.

Edited to ask, "Where did the articles tab go?" Maybe to gardens.com.

This message was edited May 4, 2007 5:01 AM

Brenham, TX(Zone 8b)

ok, tapla....i have been trying to find the proper proportions for using these ingredients...screened compost (from the city mulch pile), perlite, greensand, and some other nutrients. I'm finding the soil is still pretty slow and heavy. any suggestions on proportions, or additions to make it "faster" and lighter? maybe gypsum? if so how much? I havew a backyard nursery so the plants will stay in containers for quite a while. thanks for helping us all understand this topic.

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Well - you're probably not going to want to hear what I have to say, but I'd skip the compost entirely, and the greensand will do nothing to enhance aeration, so I'd leave it out in favor of any one of a number of other sources of micronutrients. A review of the original post, or this one: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/719569/ will reveal what my thinking is.

Gypsum is prilled & the pellets break down quickly; it will do nothing for aeration or drainage in container soils. Sorry.

Al

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Jammin, I use Al's original recipe and I really like it. Don't know how the plants like it yet, haven't been using it that long. But I do. LOL

Jeanette

Brenham, TX(Zone 8b)

what's the easiest way to mix up the soils? wish i had a cement mixer!

(Arlene) Southold, NY(Zone 7a)

I think I recall Tapla saying a wheelbarrow was ideal to mix the soil.

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