Al using H202 when wick watering the water never seems to go bad (sour) like it does without it added. How long does it last and what does it change to. Seems like it should be used up rather quickly. Does fertilizer neutralize it in any way.
Container Soils and Water Movement in Containers (long post)
H2O2 has 2 O atoms, unlike water which contains only one. Chemically, it's an unstable chemical compound. Ions with the right potential range for reduction in nutrient solutions act as catalysts for the reduction of H2O2 to H2O. This reaction releases O atoms, providing extra oxygen to the plant roots and improving root function. It also and oxidizes metallic elements, making them more readily available for plant uptake.
As you note, the water doesn't "sour" because the H2O2 reacts with and kills organic molecules that contain catalase.
I wasn't sure about your question - I hope that answered it.
Al
Wow! What an interesting thread. I can't believe I haven't found it until now. :-/
Al, thanks for the information, which makes complete sense. I'm sure that I won't rush out and repot all of my plants, just to add a wick to them, but I'm also sure I'll be adding wicks as I go. I'd also like to add an alternative polymer to the one listed above. At work (and home), we use a product called Terra-Sorb. I just compared the two, and Terra-Sorb is a bit cheaper (at least at the first site I checked http://www.gardeners.com/Terra-Sorb-Drought-Proofing-Crystals/default/StandardCatalog.Watering_DroughtProofing.14091.cpd?XNET8035 ). Although, I'm sure one could find a cheaper version of each, if they searched longer.
I didn't really mention this because of price, but more because of ingredients. Watersorb's MSDS lists it as "Acrylic acid / acrylamide copolymer". Terra-Sorb's active ingredient is "Potassium Polyacrylamide Acrylate Copolymer". I've seen other polymers that were sodium based, and I'd advise anyone using one of the sodium-based polymers to cease, and avoid them like the plague. One of the last things I want to add to my soil is salt. I'm not so sure that acrylic acid is very beneficial, when it breaks down, either. Terra-Sorb breaks down over about 5 years, into potassium. Seems the best product to use, no?
My OT $0.02. Again, thanks for a great read,
Eggs
Interesting point. Though it may not be as important for the plants in container culture, we as consumers might want to think about what we use in the way of water absorbing soil amendments and how we use them. They do persists in the environment & have no nutrient value to flora or fauna!
Some of the "extra-absorbent" characteristics mentioned by manufacturers of polymers are exaggerated, & as bio-degradation occurs these polymers actually reverse their effect and hold moisture so tightly it is unavailable to plants. Soils can usually be designed so forest products (bark), peat, and other organic media components that adequately hold moisture can be used with no ill effects. These products, even in containers, provide the plant(s) some nutrient value & fodder for the micro-organisms that polymers inhibit. Some degraded polymer components even have some of the same effects on mammals as female hormones, which can affect mammalian fertility and potency.
Additionally, and as you alluded to, the polyacrylamides in some garden-grade moisture holding polymers are made from (& contain) the monomer acrylamide, a known carcinogen.
I haven't done any tech reading on the product you mentioned, but when I get the chance, I'll chase it down. Thanks for bringing this subject to our attention.
Al
Al: I had never considered that there could be a down-side to using the water absorbing crystals, though it does make complete sense given that they are not organic -- there is no reason to assume they'd continue to perform the function for which they were designed as they break down. The last thing I would want to do is use a product that is environmentally counter-productive. Do you ever use water absorbing crystals? I have purchsed some plants that need extra moisture, and had planned to boost their soil with some crystals.
I purchased a container of a common brand of the product several years ago & have only used a few teaspoons of it. I have a lot of plants & they're all in even faster soils than I suggest here, so I need to make the watering rounds daily since the greater share of my plants require a frequent drink. You can see that with that kind of attention needed anyway, the product's advertised benefits hold little allure for me.
Al
This message was edited Feb 26, 2007 10:49 AM
Got it. You are a very dedicated gardener indeed! In my case, I often get distracted and my plants have to fend for themselves, so I'd like to give them a leg up!
Al,
I'm new here and since all my plants are in containers this is a thread I need. I do have a question and i'm sorry if you've answered this, I sometimes use small rocks in the bottom of my pots- does this really help with drainage?
Thanks, Elizabeth
Elizabeth - please see Al's first post on this thread, third paragraph. There is an enormous value in reading the thread, regardless of the length of it. :-)
Thank you- I read that but didn't understanding the wording the first time. I will end up reading this over and over because you sometimes miss things or don't understand till the next time-then you wonder how you didn't "see" it before.
I've got some kind of ivy in a self watering pot. The tips of the leaves are turning brown? Time to change the soil do you think? It's the first plant I got just over a year ago and I'm concerned. Any ideas?
Thanks again, Elizabeth
Are the brown tips on new growth or old leaves? If it's on the old leaves it's probably nature at work. There's probably a forum for ivies on DG and maybe those people could give you better answers than I.
Both actually. Thank you for your advice on the forum. It took me a bit to find the right one. I hope someone can help. It was the first plant I got when I moved to TX from AL and it's special:) I'll let you know what I find out. Elizabeth
Just thought I'd post two quotes from the watersorb site...
"With an essentially neutral pH, Watersorb super absorbent polymers will break down into nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water with no residual toxicity."
"Sodium based polyacrylamide was discontinued by all manufacturers over 5 years ago and is no longer available. All polyacrylamide is potassium based."
I know the above quotes are from the folks selling the stuff, so I'm not trying to suggest that's the final answer as to potential toxicity. However, I've never seen any data to support the idea that these polymers break down to produce acrylamide, which could indeed be a hazard.
Sometimes I think things can sound scarier than they are... for example, people will not purchase irradiated ground meat or eggs, because we all "know" that radiation is bad for us, never mind that eliminating bacteria from these products makes them safer and doesn't otherwise change them... In some places, they are using the term "cold pasteurized" rather than "irradiated," and the same products fly off the shelves.
I'm not trying to fan the flames here... if you're not comfortable with a product, don't use it. :-)
No fanning flames here either. I have no wont to debate either the sagacity or ethics of using water absorbing soil products and I agree that it's an individual decision. I hope our comments will prompt some readers to do some broad-based research of their own. I know I always learn something incidental to the subject I'm researching, each time I dig into something.
Al
Al,
When crystals are used in pots, should they be mixed throughout the medium or should they be put more towards the bottom to encourage the roots to reach down?? Thanks.
I tend to use them in the lower 2/3 of the container, partly so that the crystals don't work their way up to the surface of the potting mix as they plump up with water... that seems to happen sometimes, especially if you've put in a few too many crystals... it doesn't do any harm, but it sure looks odd! And like you said, having the crystals form a reservoir of extra moisture down lower in the root zone seems like a good thing.
Mix thoroughly into medium.
Most roots are hydrotropic and gravitropic, meaning they will grow toward water and downward. They don't need encouragement, other than making sure there is also ample air in the water holding portions of the container.
Sensor cells in the root cap cause the plant to turn toward water sources in hydrotropism. In gravitropism, a redistribution of Ca in the root cap causes a change in lateral auxin flow, which makes cells on the top of the roots elongate, Subsequently, the roots grow downward.
Al
Thanks Al!
Whew!
Al, in the past I have read about people growing tomatoes and other veggies upside-down in five gallon pails. Now, Gardeners Supply Co. sells a more polished looking planter that does the same.
http://www.gardeners.com/Topsy-Turvy-Vegetable-Planter/default/36-450.prd
In light of my last question and your subsequent response describing the tendency of roots to grow downward and toward water, how would these things work? Why would the roots not 'want' to stay at the bottom, where the moisture will be consistently higher than at the top and gravity would have its pull? How can they grow large enough to support a healthy plant with an abundance of fruits? Thanks, as usual.
Victor
Victor - Hammacher Schlemmer also has one! Not the same as GS but worth a look.
It probably serves no purpose to offer the technical answer to your question, but if you want to research it, entering the words circumnutation and thigmostimulation will reveal the technical mechanism(s) involved.
All tropisms are not created equal, some being requisites and others tendencies. Root gravitropism is one of the weaker ones, and hydrotropism really has nothing to do with root ability to "sense" a distant water source.
Fine roots lead a precarious existence and their survival/advancement is more of a "good news / bad news" scenario. New roots that tend to grow into inhospitable areas (of a container) die - those that grow into favorable parts of the soil live.
Roots cannot "smell" nor do they seek water/air/nutrients. They tend to grow where the growing is good, which is usually in the top 12 inches of soil where temperature, moisture, nutrients and soil-oxygen are usually most favorable. To underline the fact that roots are opportunistic "absorbers" - There has been recent tendency in hort writings lately to curtail use of the term "feeder roots" because it carries implication the roots are out "hunting and gathering" the necessities of water and nutrients. Roots simply take advantage of the cultural gradient of the surrounding soil, meaning that roots tend to grow where there is a good supply of moisture, nutrients and very importantly soil-oxygen (Here, we can read in plenty of incentive to be sure that our container soils are well-aerated. The water and nutrients are easy).
Summarized: Roots will grow where conditions are best, even if it means a tropism or two has to be trumped by favorable cultural conditions.
Al
Thanks Al. So would you expect the roots in these upside-down planters to not necessarily grow up toward the top, but rather grow densely at the bottom part of it? Thanks again.
Victor
I expect they would colonize the entire container with the densest rootage concentrated in the upper 2/3 initially, becoming equally dense throughout as the plant's water needs increase (and cause air to return to the soil more frequently as the planting matures).
The plant itself will act as a wick & help to reduce the o/a volume of water held when the planting is at container capacity. Though I've not used these containers, my initial concern would be disease related issues as water contaminated with soil-born pathogens drips down the stems of the plant. It seems that, by design, that is inevitable.
Al
Thank you. I might one a try so I'll take photos and keep people posted.
I just found this thread and found it interesting, not boring! I printed out the thread and haven't gotten all the way through it yet (44 pages) but it is great. The info is going to be very helpful. I do have one question about the pine bark. I live in an area with a serious infestation of carpenter ants and we don't use pine bark. Can cedar bark be used instead and what size is appropriate for the mix.
I'm not sure. The common name "Cedar" covers much ground and includes trees in at least 7 genera I can think of just off the top of my head. You'd need to find out what tree the bark came from and research it for any allelopathic properties (poisonous to plants - like some trees in the Juglans genus). Wish I could help more.
Mixing some diatomaceous earth into a damp soil as you make it would also solve your carpenter ant problem so you could use the pine bark.
There's a wide range of particle sizes that are appropriate. I use the bark at both 3 and 9 o'clock for many soils, but for veggies and flowery display containers, I prefer a product that looks like what's at 12 o'clock.
I followed your recipe, re-potting quite a bit and I must say they are all looking very healthy. I have to make another batch now. Interestingly, as far as looks and feel, it resembles a high grade mix some friends of mine use for their plant business at $10.00 plus dollars a bag wholesale.
Rj
I'm really glad you find it suitable to your needs, Rj. Thanks.
Al
I used it for my potted tree roses and haven't had any problems.
Pirl, where do you find the pine bark? I have never heard of this product on the West coast. Any suggestions Tapla?
Jeanette
You're probably more likely to find redwood bark out this way rather than pine. Not sure if it would work the same or not though.
Well, like Tapla says you would have to research it to see if it is poisonous to the flowers. I know Walnut trees cause I problem. In the northwest almost everything is cedar. But there are tons of different kinds of cedar. Right here on my property I have many different ones.
Jeanette
I had no choice at all, here. It's pine bark or nothing. Did I go astray, Tapla?
In the northwest and CA, fir and redwood bark are readily available and work very well. I grow many things in a soil that uses fir bark as the only organic component. I have a dear friend in CA that I talk to all the time who uses a variation of the recipe above with composted redwood bark instead of the pine. That also works very well.
Al
Whew! I read your mix again and feel quite relieved that I haven't lost my mind yet....
That, and the wick works wonders.
Fear not, I remembered the wick and had it at the edge of the pot before I began so as not to forget it. This thread is a goldmine, thanks to Tapla.
Tapla and others...thank you so much for this info. It explains why I have had such trouble and wasted so much money on container plantings gone bad!!! I just want to say that judging by the number of questions and responses, this is a very hot topic and you should consider finding a publisher...your way of explaining the chemistry and science of everything is so down to earth and layperson friendly that it is very marketable!!!!
Scheesch - you guys are great, and are literally going to make me blush. Those who know me will know my comment isn't false modesty either. I'm really moved by the positive comments and your thank yous. I can't tell you how much they mean to me. There are lots of other contributors up the thread, plus all the people who perpetuate it by asking questions, that also deserve a pat on the back; so, I'll take a second to thank everyone who contributed their opinions & comments, as well as those asking questions. Thank you for providing me with such a pleasant diversion and a way to have fun.
Al