Is this really legal? III

I've watched the whole debate between these two groups. I feel like I've read everything that's been posted on the subject. I'm writing here now because I see that this isn't really getting anywhere.

This is really weird - an unusual situation. The really odd thing is that you guys do have a good point but your methods to accomplish your goals are working against you to make the possible impossible.

The plot thickens when you realize that the main names in this crowd are:

Dyson, imway2dumb, caron, sugarweed, PvillePlanter, and Equilibrium.

All but one of these joined and subscribed only in the past few months. caron, however, joined in 2000 but only subscribed last month. I'm guessing she joined and forgot, and then finally logged in last month at the request of the rest of the group (I'm totally guessing here, based on circumstancial evidence).

So the situation is that we have a slew of new folks coming in and aggressively trying to change policy on this site. Now, maybe policy does need to change (I'm not saying either way right now) but what do you think your actions looks like to us? Would you really expect us to react in any other way?

You know that in real life you don't move to a new city and immediately get your friends together to influence city hall. When you do that, eyebrows are raised and suspicions are formed. It's just natural and once you reach that point, it's difficult to move forward. People dig their heels into the sand and then we're all stuck.

I think we're all reasonable people here. I haven't gotten to know all these new folks, but the ones I've seen, like PvillePlanter and Equilibrium, are well spoken folks who seem very "real", so to speak, and I think they could be great participants of this site. I honestly like them This makes it even more difficult to just ignore them.

So please understand: we aren't your enemy and we're not trying to shut you up. But please learn a little about how things get done in life. Aggressively pushing your agenda right out of the box isn't going to be very useful.

Nothing is going to change anytime soon. Even outside DG, there are thousands of trades going on daily that aren't going to magically stop. Let's all sit back and relax for a month or so. In January maybe we can softly and gently re-introduce this subject. Maybe it'd be even better to talk to me on the phone about the subject. You'll find me friendly and easy-going, ready to listen and talk. In the meantime, maybe you folks ought not trade, if it makes you uneasy.

Kind regards,
Dave

Dave, have you been reading my mind? I find myself on the wrong side of the fence on an issure that I have spoken to in the past, and it has more to do with methodology than with right or wrong. Everyone here who knows me, knows that I am a careful gardener and a faithful steward of the land that we farm, but I really have come down on the side of NO. I have been offended by the responces some of these people have made to what seemed to me sincere and rational comments. To be honest, it feels like they are telling us all that we know nothing and in our ignorance are destroying the ecosystem. There are many sides to this particular issue and the shrieking wheels seem most unwilling to hear anyone else out. I have read a lot, but not all of the main threads in this discussion and I really feel like going out and scattering ox-eye daisy seed down the roadside! I haven't yet come to the point where I would plant a purple loosestrife, but, as I said, I have a bit more to read.

Please, people, it is not a good thing to become so short sighted that you chase away prospective friends. Yes, there are invasive plants, and if you are honest not all of them are exotics. But you will not educate anyone by turning every discussion into a confrontation. Nor are you going to make a lot of points on this site by assuming that no one here can possibly know as much as you. Please, sit back and learn a bit more about us before you turn us all from potential friends to people who really can't stand your presence.

Dave,

I find your comments for the most part are quite reasonable, and would have been even more so if they had been based on more accurate assumptions. I'm beginning to feel like a very broken record here. For nearly a month now, I have consistantly been put the position of of having to defend myself.....and repeatedly on the same questions. I can understand how some folks might be put off by newcomers who enthusiastically jump right in with both feet (even though that is exactly what I was encouraged to do). However, how do you think this newcomer feels being barated, challenged, and insulted day in and day out? Is it any wonder that I interpret you singling out of 6 individuals as a negative branding and continuing to beat a dead horse? Your very first phrase mentions two groups and then for the next 9 paragraphs you finger one of those perceived groups as being the cause of all problems. Am I being paranoid? Perhaps. But nearly a month of constant abrassion tends to do that to people..

Let me clarify a couple of your assumptions. I subscribed less than a month ago, and at that time I knew no one here. I rather resent your inference that this was some sort of pre-planned plot to invade and take over your site. I fully realize you did not come right out and say that, but I also realize that many of the folks here would take your word (including vague inferences) as gospel and would not question you if you claimed the moon to be made of lime jello.

I have spent most of my time on this site defending myself, and on more than one occassion, over and over again, on the exact same accusations, that I had already repeatedly answered and clarified. How do you think it feels to be called a liar? I do agree with you that once the request for a forum was turned down that should have been the end of it. But I think if you reveiw that thread, you will find that the "group" was not the only ones that continued to agitate the situation. If you look at part II of this thread, I think you will find that there was no aggression, and no agitation until the other "group" once again began interrogating me. So I would like to pose the same question to you: what do you think their actions look like to me?

Since you have chosen to identify 6 people as a group who are the root of all these problems, I would like to leave you with exactly how I met each of those people.

Shortly after I subscribed, I posted a question about a rooting hormone product I had purchased sans directions. I first encounted Dyson when he responded to my post and actually contacted the manufacturer and obtained a bitmap image for me of the directions that should have been on the product I purchased.

I first encountered Imway2dumb and sugarweed in the Texas Gardening forum that was created shortly after I subscribed. Both are among the nicest, most helpful, intelligent, and witty people I have come across here.

I first encountered caron and Equilibrium in the Part 1 of this thread that I initiated in late October. Both of them have extensive hands on experience working with environmental projects in their respsective states. As I stated last night in part 2 of this thread, when I originated the thread my only concern was my own back yard. Thanks to them, I have gained an enormous amount of knowledge and appreciation for the environment beyound just my own yard in a very short period of time.

I can only hope that you and the rest of the DG community will treat these 5 individuals with the respect and common curtesy that they each deserve. And that the next time an enthusiastic newcomer comes along that may not have the same style or opinions, that their styles and opinions would be accepted and tolerated, rather than put down.

I subscribed to DG in seach of a gardening community. I found quite a few individuals who are quite hospitible, friendly, knowledgable, and helpful, but I did not find a gardening community. The established community that you have here works quite well as a closed system.

I hope you will give me the credit for having enough intelligence to know when to stop beating my head against a brick wall.

Best of luck to you now and in the future,

Nancy

As WC Fields said, Nancy... 'If at first you don't succeed, try again. If you still don't succeed, quit trying. No sense in being a darned fool about it." Sounds like this isn't working out for you, and I can speak for myself, I'm getting tired of trying to make it better and being accused of harassment. Sometimes folks are just different... not bad or good, just different. If you consider me as being a harasser, I think you are dead wrong.... so, do what you have to do and be happy, but count me out.

Dave

Not sure that I feel that I have to publicly defend myself as to why I subscribed here but since you asked...

Yes I had checked out the site in 2000 and registered, but found it somewhat limited at the time. I turned to other gardening boards and forums. You are exactly right, I forgot about it (but a pretty easy guess considering I had to e-mail you for my password after all that time, lol)!

After being called a nazi, eco-nazi, communist, fascist, eco-terrorist, and spammed to death by some extremely mean spirited people, I had enough. And yes, at Equil's suggestion (since we had shared some weed warrior stories privately), I checked out the site and found it bigger and much more active than I remembered so I subscribed.

I did not know anyone else in this crowd (get the feeling though that gang is what’s being implied). As I put it in another post, I do not understand why everyone seems so paranoid. Dave, did you honestly think we ALL came here from GardenWeb, paid our money, wanted to P*$$ people off, and then purposefully try to get thrown outta here???? To stop seed trading? Hardly!! I’ve been a member of SSE on and off for a number of years. Do I trade seed? Have in the past, don’t anymore. But I do give them away. Has nothing to do with anything but my desire to do so. Call it changing my little corner of the world by growing and giving native, non invasive or heirloom seeds.
Dave, there is NO plot!! I will also say in no uncertain terms that we are not responsible for any other person’s posts-only our own (just in case anyone was thinking it).

I don't know whether to be insulted that you might think I'm not as well spoken as P'Ville or Equil, less "real" so to speak, less of a great participant to the site, or extremely grateful that I'm not being singled out as much. ;-)

I understand some being a little leery or even put off. That’s a given when new people enter a group no matter the size. After all, it’s pretty uncomfortable to have anyone–especially a newbie-question your accepted practices, what you choose to grow, or imply you might be actively but unknowingly taking a part in harming the environment!
Yikes, what are these 6 going to say next?

But I do not feel that I go out of my way to be hurtful or mean or have been either on any post here. I know I am more of a technical writer and not always as eloquent or amusing as some, but that’s the scientist in me-not the literary scholar, LOL! If some of this is a matter of writing/speaking style then I think we all have to get over that hang-up pretty quickly. Wouldn’t it be utterly boring if we were all alike? Acted/reacted predictably?

I’m not sure exactly how to very nicely say that ox-eye daisy is one nasty plant if another does not want to hear that information…Or are people more annoyed that they can’t change my mind on this particular plant? If so, I will submit that it’s a little like the pot calling the kettle black, no? Maybe we all need to examine our motives for feeling put out??

Dave, I would sincerely like to ask you what you think your (and I mean that in the 3rd person) actions look like to me? It seems that both sides were immediately on the defensive (oh, newbies here-gotta teach THEM a thing or two about how thing work/and from the newbies-oh yeah, here’s MY argument back).
I quoted the law on seed trading here in Colorado and ended up having to defend myself although I took no stand on the issue either way. Just as others have in many forums here surrounding growing poppies, or weeds or mailing seeds and plants. See,now I'm feeling put out.

I don't for a minute believe that this is one sided and that we the “Gang of 6” are solely to blame. I hope you don’t either. To give that impression to anyone reading this would be a very sad commentary.

I have to tell you Dave, although I disagree with you for bringing this up in this way- at least you have guts and are honest about it.
Here’s the only real problem I have. The rest is just discussion as far as I can see.
Had you e-mailed me privately with the very same message, I would not feel like I was being put out for display, publicly flogged, and labeled as one of the 6 troublemakers. To do so puts me automatically on the defensive, but also invites others to join in the fray…I will however, be happy to answers anyone’s questions about who I am, what I do, or anything I’ve posted here - privately.

I do so enjoy a good discussion though…must be the latent Jersey girl in me, LOL!

Yours in Gardening Peace, Caron


This message was edited Nov 22, 2004 10:17 PM

This message was edited Nov 26, 2004 1:37 PM

Dave,

I have been here for YEARS. I'm a new SUBSCRIBER thanks to a friend. He/she knows who he/she is. I was able to subscribe briefly a couple of years ago. We're poor at my house.

P'ville, I'm with you. You're cool~! Happy Thanksgiving!

Outside of farming, Kathleen..if you are planting invasive, non-native plants, you are not helping the environment. You are helping to wreck it. And that may not be a concern to you. Fine. The only reason I do care is what is in my neigh bor's yard finds it's way into MY yard. I pull up THOUSANDS of buckthorn seedlings in my woodland garden every year..because my neighbor has a lovingly tended, fruiting buckthorn in his front yard. The birds eat the fruit, then the seed all over my yard. Want pictures of my buckthorn nursery? Do you really think I have the spare time to pull all his seedlings up? Is this fair? Who is this "they" you are speaking about, btw? And............The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I have found several varieties of native invasive plants in my back yard, and am only too happy to point them out. Virginia creeper, which I like muchly. Echinacea Purpurea. Wild grape. Asters. Goldenrods. I am trying to manage them, so that they are balanced against the less aggressive natives. I do this by burning and planting native prairie grasses. So far, it's working.

Balanced against the amount of native invasives..here are the non-native invasives...Canada Thistle. Buckthorn, especially Buckthorn. Miscanthus. Dame's Rocket. Sweet Williams. Poke. Smooth Brome. Honeysuckle. Butterfly Bush. Mulberry. Various tick-seeds. Burdock. And I could go on and on. There ain't no balance here...if I didn't kill them on sight, I wouldn't have my little prairie.

I've nothing against well behaved exotics...in my front yard I have zinnias, chamomile, iris, scabiosa, tomatoes, lettuces, basil, tarragon, montauk daisies, morning glories, agastache, columbine cultivars, heucheras, miscanthus, lillies, borage, coreopsis tinctoria(native in the western states), perisan coneflower, cosmos, hollyhocks, etc. April

Oh dear, I can see how it might appear that we all knew each other before coming here but… appearances can be deceptive. I can only speak for myself however... I only knew of caron from the “group” listed above because I was introduced to her to help me with a project. I later suggested she check this site out where I had joined last January. I do have 3 personal friends in these forums that I did come right out and ask to join but they don’t frequent the same forums as me when visiting here. So please do not think this was a preemptive strike based on prior relationships. It would appear the people mentioned above found they shared somewhat similar interests when they kept running into each other in the same threads. From reading posts of the others, I think I am the only wildlife gardener in the lot while the rest are native plant gardeners like my personal friends.

Also too, I have spoken to Dave on the phone and did find him to be "friendly and easy-going, ready to listen and talk". Thank you Dave, for helping me with the PayPal situation. I really appreciated your assistance.

Have a Great Thanksgiving and a Merry Christmas


NAIL IN THE FENCE
A Good Story for Great Friends.....A great story for little kids.......

There once was a little girl who had a bad temper. Her mother gave her a bag of nails and told her that every time she lost her temper, she must hammer a nail into the back of the fence.

The first day the girl had driven 37 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks, as she learned to control her anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down. She discovered it was easier to hold her temper than to drive those nails into the fence.

Finally the day came when the girl didn't lose her temper at all. She told her mother about it and the mother suggested that the girl now pull out one nail for each day that she was able to hold her temper. The day passed and the young girl was finally able to tell her mother that all the nails were gone. The mother took her daughter by the hand and led her to the fence.

She said, "You have done well, my daughter, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one." You can put a knife in a person and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say "I'm sorry", the wound is still there. A verbal wound is as bad as a physical one.

Anonymous

At the risk of getting booted I don't understand all the hubbub, bub.

Looked like a simple conversation among like minded people about an activity taking place here at Dave's.

As a one-time farmer and rancher, educated within a ag college, by the government (symposiums, licensing, etc) and by life, I found a lot of merit to what was being discussed. One of the things I learned in weeds control at Texas A&I Kingsville was that seeds innocently transported on vehicles, animals, etc have been the bain of many a state's agriculture agencies. That's why you can't transport fruits and vegetables through AZ and CA (I had that driven home recently doing interstate trucking) and why many a state make farm equipment be throroughly cleaned before it's allowed to cross it's boundries.

It all looked incredibly innocent in my opinion - said as someone who has just now read through the entire 3 threads for the first time. That is until Terry entered thread II. (I say this with great trepidation. I like my 'life' here at Dave's and I really don't want to jeapordize it.)

I have wondered to myself on more than one occasion the very things these people were discussing. What I don't understand was Terry's need to have someone state their reasons for starting the thread. For me it became readily evident immediately after I started reading the first thread. And to be honest, Terry's remarks hit me funny. I suddenly got the queer sensation that my time here at Dave's was being watched - carefully. A feeling I got last week when a request of mine was somewhat censored. At the time I rejected the idea as coming from being too tired. Now I feel I see a pattern imerging.

Please understand, the purpose of this post is simply to give all involved a view from another angle. Much like when there is a car wreck. Everyone may see the same thing, but not everyone processes the info the same way. Thus, this other person's opinion; someone who was a completely disinterested third party. (I saw this thread a while back and blew it off as something I really wasn't interested in. Been there, done that.) I'm interested in it now simply because I'm concerned I may be next. (As I said, I already got a bit of a taste of it last week.)

Are there topics that are off limits? Is this suppose to be like Star Trek instead of Star Wars (Ray Bradbury had the belief that there should never be disention among his primary characters - unlike Star Wars.)

As I said before, I really like my 'life' here and I do not want to jeapordize it. Nor, might I add, jeapordize anyone else's either.

Ok, Dave's first post this thread -

He makes more sence than anyone here so far A) the topic & information are Important.
B) everyone needs to chill untill the holidays are over. C) I agree completely.


Wishing all in this thread and all in DG a happy Thanksgiveing. May your plants flourish & provide the bounty to be thankful for, May your family be safe & secure, May the wind be at your back so that your personal way forward be accomplished with out strife.

Thanks all - I think we're on the right track here. I see that some folks are still angry (and now at me) but, I think sometimes when one gets defensive, nothing will help.

So, those who got angry at my post: I'm sorry that happened. You took my note in a spirit other than which I wrote it. I don't know what I could have done differently.

To those who are matching my friendly attitude: Thank you so much.

As a postlude to this discussion: let's revisit this whole thing in January. Peradventure you'll find that with different tactics you'll find us to be quite accomodating.

dave

Equilibrium, I have NO idea what this thread is all about, I just tend to read anything Dave posts. I just want to thank you for your little "Nail in the Fence" story. I have a friend that has a son with an anger management problem and she is at her wits end in dealing with it. I'm passing this story on to her. It is a beautiful object lesson. Thanks
Pati

"So, those who got angry at my post: I'm sorry that happened. You took my note in a spirit other than which I wrote it. I don't know what I could have done differently."

You have taken the words right out of my mouth...er...keyboard. In fact they have come out of my keyboard over and over again.

If tactics are what you are trying to change, might I suggest you that you might also want to review the tactics of your own staff?

If the spirit of your post was to put things to rest, get over it and get on with it, I think a few apologies are in order. Not apologies because "those who got angry at my post: I'm sorry that happened. You took my note in a spirit other than which I wrote it", but rather because those who have been questioning my intent, and that of others, and continued to question it to the point of all but coming out and calling us liars, even after we have repeatedly quite clearly stated our intents and have apologized repeatedly, were wrong. to do that.

And btw, I am not angry but I am frustrated and fed up. You have yet to acknowledge that anyone other than the 6 individuals you have branded played any role in fanning this whole stupid situation. You have often touted your fairness and equal handedness. I think some of that is in order now.

My biggest mistake was to allow a small group of very loud individuals to continue to clamour and complain (and throw insults at some of our senior members and administrators) unchecked. I thought you would settle down all by yourself, and I was wrong.

I then thought that I could extend an olive branch, explain why we felt the way we did, and plead for peace. I was wrong about that, too.

Now you are asking for fairness and equal handedness, because I didn't go through and produce an exhaustive list of all the members who have participated in this. I'm not going to spend the time to do that, as I have thousands of other members who rely on me to do other things. I'm sorry if I left someone out. I have TODO items waiting for me to finish.

I believe that your conduct is harmful to Dave's Garden, and to the members whose participation on this site has been disrupted. I have been negligent by allowing this to go on for way too long in the hopes that it'll resolve itself. I'm going to correct that problem right now. Therefore, let's expedite the solution here. Stop yelling, sit down, and be quiet, or you will be shown the door.

No more public discussion. You can email me, or you can call me, but I don't want to see this discussed on the site anymore.

Dave

And, branded before the entire DG community! How does something like that get undone? :-(

You started this publicly, therefore I am ending it publicly.

dave

Dave,

Please let me know what email address you would like me to use. I will email you but not using the DG member mail feature.

Nancy

dave@davesgarden.com

THE MAN SAID " WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT IN 2005."

I CARE ABOUT ALL OF YOU OTHER BOOGERS.

I CARE ABOUT "OUR GARDEN" TOO.

WITH LOVE, SIDNEY

My, my, my!! I've been offline since Saturday and now I'm flabbergasted by what I'm reading as I'm one that longs for happy faces on a great Garden Site! My dear husband found this and a couple of others thru his University, and I chose DG as my primary because it is so much friendlier and diverse. I like having so many people to communicate with, particularly those who teach me how to garden more responsibly. Prior to joining DG, I had never traded seeds or plants. Once I started, I was oblivious to any possibility that some plants being traded could adversely affect the environment. Thus, I was not checking to see which seeds and plants are invasive or illegal in the states of the recipient. I would like to see this information posted on DG, and that is why I had started to watch the thread of concern. Although I've participated in discussions openly and privately, I do not personally know any of the people in the discussion and, as far as I am concerned, there was no prior private talk nor conspiracy on this matter. I'm sure the six people singled out just a few of many who share their concerns about this important subject.

Anyone who uses instant messenging knows that written words are often misconstrued. It is not unusual to have a harmless opinion or comment taken the wrong way, and the exchange then becomes accusatory and heated for no good reason. Once name-calling is introduced, it becomes destructive. Come on people, ease up. Ask for clarification if you find someone's words strike you as sel-serving, offensive, insane, or inappropriate. We're on DG to share knowledge about what we all love and the atmosphere should ALWAYS be friendly. Leave your preconceptions and anger elsewhere. If you had a bad day outside of the garden, DG doesn't need to bear the brunt of it!!!

Truncating the idea of the thread abruptly and without some discussion for the benefit of all only adds anger and frustration to its participants. Obviously, all DGers are somewhat intelligent adults and none of us are likely to take kindly to being treated like bratty children behaving badly. We all should show gratitude and respect for this forum and its participants. We visit DG because we have common interests to share - NOT to argue, NOT to express anger, NOT to exchange insults.

Some sort of compromise is needed so that this topical information can be accessed by all. Are we not the guardians of the land, the keepers of the earth? We should all be concerned about doing the right thing in the world we have inundated with displaced exotics. We should all be aware of specific problems (species vs. plant zones) that we would otherwise be unknowingly contributing to. If we don't act responsibly, myself included, are we not potential ecoterrorists?

Dave, I understand your frustration in having a discussion turn into a nightmare, but it should be obvious at this point that what transpired was nobody's intention. Perhaps the DG motto should read "Manure Happens"? We need to stop reading between the lines and accept our diversity of writing styles and skills. Dave, I don't see anyone attacking you per se, they are just telling you that they feel as though they are being unjustly perceived and labelled. These members appear to be quite eloquent and educated in their fields and they deserve the same respect that you expect from them. They have brought up a subject that all of us should pay serious attention to. Whereas the current plant database has a section that simply indicates "may be evasive", a more informative list of evasive and noxious plants would be a great resource for those who want the information.

Thanks for listening, let's move onward,
Happy Thanksgiving to all,
Your fellow Gardener,
Annie

Annie, thank you for some very loving and sane words. Might I add mine? Dave, to thee, I apologize as you had requested this subject be dropped, but I feel very strongly that this has gotten terribly out of hand and that is when I usually step forward to speak.

These threads are sad. I was truly relieved to see a hint of resolution one day, only to see a repeat showing of some fairly unpleasant postings. Has not the original intention of informing people about invasive plants been left far behind?

The inevitable but slightest mention of turning in others made my heart go cold, and I think the eventual use of that term was a surprise to no one. This would certainly scare most off, no matter whether they were trading something someone considered to be an offense or not.

Until we are in a position of authority, and God forbid it should ever come to Plant Police, Abortion Police, Animal Neutering Police or Thought Police, our job is to inform and educate others, not only that a particular issue exists, but to encourage personal responsibility regarding that issue. I feel strongly (my opinion that fits me, my mind, my life and my values) that lack of individual, personal responsibility is the key issue in probably every problem plaguing this world. Supporting the education of others or improvement of any situation is a truly honourable pursuit, taking the time and energy for issues outside our own full lives is truly rare The current status of our earth is more than enough testimony to this fact.

However, these threads have turned the tides from its original purpose of negotiating a forum of information to basically attacks, belittlement and sheer absurdity, even worse, “Us” and “Them.” What started as good and honourable intentions has slithered outside the realm of one standpoint and opinion to what now looks like accelerated, aggressive persistence which everyone would like to see an end to. This is not the place nor the way to strengthen that cause.

I for one, appreciate learning (from an entirely different source than DG) that my water hyacinth is not only considered a serious pest in some areas, it might be illegal in another state, but I absolutely refuse to rip mine out. It isn’t causing an ecological problem or spreading to my neighbor’s yard, it provides my fish with what they need to survive, I love it, and I am not wrecking any part of the world by having it in my pond.

Meanwhile, informing the public has to take place in many different forms, only one of which is Dave’s Garden, which reaches only those few subscribers compared to the world’s gardening population.

A forum devoted to invasive plants opens a debate where little is black or white, includes many different opinions and differing local regulations and studies, not necessarily universal or national rulings, and not to mention the negativity and divided battlefields which we have already unhappily experienced. Dave’s decision is clearly understandable, if for no other reason, based on the behavior within these threads. Since Dave has chosen not to instigate a forum dedicated to undesirable and invasive plants, those who heavily support this issue have other choices and will have to concentrate on those.

Within the format of Dave’s Garden, the Plant Data Base seems to be an appropriate place to use the invasive statement or post state regulations in the comment section within the confines of what Dave has, in his full and complete right, decided what is best for HIS page, which he kindly, lovingly set up for our use with countless hours of devotion from him and many others. It would be the choice of those behind this cause to encourage people to research invasives, but not to dictate their plant choices.

The rules and regulations of Dave’s Gardens, as well as Dave’s decisions, appear to be based on the desire to promote friendly exchange of knowledge and information, forming of friendships and to have fun. This is what I am here for. I am hoping my posting is not misunderstood, disturb friendships, step on toes, or create more friction in any way. I look forward to the forums I have been involved with, the people I have met, more exchanges of information, ideas and simple fun. I also hope that those who have the time and energy to devote to important issues find other appropriate formats in which to continue their campaign.

How could this have possibly turned into an argument? A request for a new forum was made. It was turned down by the moderators of this site. End of story. However...I stand by the right of members to discuss and yes, argue with the decisions made by the moderators. All the mods have to do is hit delete....And it seems to me that the only thing people were doing here was bandying about ideas. I love the free play of intelligent discussion and the exchange of opinion. Even if it lasts hundreds of posts. Every snowflake is different, and so is everyone's opinion.

I don't care if there's an invasive plant forum. I know what the invasive plants are in my area....and I kill them. I volunteer at state parks so I can kill them on a LARGE scale. I don't appreciate other people doing seed and plant trades in non-native invasives. Height of ignorance. Immoral, too. But still....I'm not going to turn them in, though I'm sorely tempted.

But, if *you* own a COMMERCIAL nursery in my area, and I see that you're selling an invasive, non-native plant....I will report you. I've done it before, and will do it again. To the DNR, the IDNR, the USDA, and anybody else I can think of. Period. I spend tons of my free time volunteering and ripping this cr*p out of natural areas. Ever spent a day cutting and dragging Japanese Honeysuckle and Buckthorn?

It really DOESN'T take that much time, or that much effort, to educate yourself about native plants. And about plants that don't belong. I did it...and I didn't even make it through high school, and am certainly not a genius. April

I have been blissfully ignorant of these threads until today when I stumbled upon them.

Although I have not a comment for any of it I do want to say - there is Ox-Eye Daisy in my yard that was in a commercial pack of something else!

'Not watching this hear thread either....' shew wee too much controversy for me!

Take care all - have a great turkey day and I'm going back to the gardening threads - they are just so much fun!!!!!

Nicole

Speaking of Thanksgiving, I found this in my Thanksgiving file from last year-

A THANKSGIVING POEM . .

'Twas the night of Thanksgiving,
But I couldn't sleep;
I tried counting backwards,
I tried counting sheep.

The leftovers beckoned --
The dark meat and white;
But I fought the temptation
With all of my might.

Tossing and turning
With anticipation;
The thought of a snack
Became infatuation.

So, I raced to the kitchen,
Flung open the door;
And gazed in the fridge,
Full of goodies galore.

I gobbled up turkey
And buttered potatoes,
Pickles and carrots,
Beans and tomatoes.

I felt myself swelling
So plump and so round,
'Til all of a sudden,
I rose off the ground.

I crashed through the ceiling,
Floating into the sky;
With a mouthful of pudding,
And a handful of pie.

But, I managed to yell
As I soared past the trees. .

Happy eating to all --
Pass the cranberries, please.

May your stuffing be tasty,
May your turkey be plump;
May your potatoes 'n gravy
Have nary a lump.

May your yams be delicious,
May your pies take the prize;
May your Thanksgiving dinner
Stay off of your thighs!

MAY YOUR THANKSGIVING BE HAPPY AND BLESSED

:-)

Me too.(

I do hope you realize MOST of us are quite ignorant when it comes to invasives and plants that are not legal in certain states or all. The fact you turn in Nurseries is probably a good thing, but again since this information is not in this Data Base nor many others when I look up on the Web, or when I shop for plants, We are hard pressed to know! Ignorance is bliss, isnt it, I'm sure I will make many more mistakes out of my ignorance, but less now than before!
But on the other hand, We cannot be the Plant Police in the private sector, my choices in life may not be yours, how I vote, whether I eat meat or not, Whether I go to Church, on so forth. Most of my plants are contained in my flower beds and pots, in my fenced California home, and when We redo our contained plastic pond in our fenced backyard I might just have to put in a beautifull Water Hyacinth that I can readily buy at 4 of my local Koi pond stores and if I decide I don't like them, I will boil them, pack them and take them to the Hazardous waste collection site!
*******
it seems to me that the only thing people were doing here was bandying about ideas. I love the free play of intelligent discussion and the exchange of opinion. Even if it lasts hundreds of posts. Every snowflake is different, and so is everyone's opinion.
*******
I totally agree with you on this, but obviously as I stated above, some misconstrued what was said thru the written word!!!!!! and thus felt attacked on both sides, how sad!
Again Happy Turkey Day to all of you and yours,
Annie

The absolute BEST Thanksgiving greeting yet!!!!! And thanks to you I have one more thing to be thankfull for.....I pulled a nail yesterday! *grin*
Pati

Thank you Pati! In about 5 minutes you will have mail! Here's hoping this holiday season is a "Piece of Cake" for you!

Hanna1,

You don't have to plant non-native agressive plants. You can find tons of lists of plants native to your area on the internet. You can find tons of lists of plants that are not native and aggressive in your area on the internet, too...while the PDB is a stupendous resource, and I'm glad it's there..it is not the only resource.

If I know of a commercial nursery in my area selling water hyacinth or water celery or purple loosestrife, I report them to the authorities. There is NO excuse for selling or buying these destructive plants. Anywhere in the US. They dont' belong here simply because they have shown themselves to be malignant. Period. I have plenty of non-native plants that aren't aggressive. I don't give a darn that water hyacinth is so pretty, bla bla bla. Can you absolutely, 100% guarantee the seeds from *your* water hyacinth are going to stay in *your* yard ONLY? There are native water plants that are just as pretty. There are non-native water plants that are just as pretty, and not aggressive. And yes, as far as these 3 plants are concerned, in my area, which has a lot of wetlands which are under restoration by people like me, and other volunteers....I am a part of the plant police. April

dodecathyon, I don't feel there was a need for your very agressive words to me on this thread, you could have e-mailed me privately and we could have discussed this subject at lenght, if you had read my postings above, you would have known my real stance, do not jump to conclusions, and do not tell me what I must plant, I love my foreign legal Orchids, Roses, and the like, and I will continue to plant as I please, with a better understanding of invasives, and obbiously you may not be aware of my private discussion with Caron, so when you don't have all your ducks in a row, think, re-think, and speak with caution, ask before attacking another, I would be glad for you to email, or call me, but I do not take lightly to anyone attacking me, thank you, Annie

Annie,

2/3rds of reading is comprehension. The only part of my reply that was directed at you, specifically, was the first paragraph in which I related that "you don't have to plant agressive non-natives", and there are plenty of lists available of agressives and not-aggressives, and that while PDB is an incredible resource...it is not the only one. Please tell me how that is an attack?

I've no problem with anyone planting anything they want. It is *YOUR* (Annie, I don't mean "your" in the literal sense, hence the asterisks. They were on the original post, too)property, and *you* have the right to landscape it as *you* please. However, my property is MY property(which is NOT 100% pristine and native, not by a long shot, BTW), and I don't want anyone else's nasty stuff on it. I also have the right to submit a bill for the expense of removing said neighbor's nasty stuff from my property, to said neighbor. Of COURSE, I DON'T do this, but when I'm crouched down pulling up the, oh, I don't know, 10,000th buckthorn seedling, you bet I want to. I have better things to do, believe it or not. I have creaky knees and back. I really like my neighbors, but I do have to do a bit of grumbling when I'm cleaning up after their plants. Or dogs. Which I do. It is better to have good friends and neighbors than native plants, IMO.

One day my neighbor asked me why nothing would grow under the buckthorn(the culprit!!!)he has in his front yard. I gave him the whole spiel on buckthorn. He didn't know it was a host plant for the fungus called "rust" which was killing his grass. I didn't know until a DG member's husband told me it was. Now that I have connected his pet buckthorn to the death of his lawn, maybe he will get rid of the dang thing.

You said it best yourself, "I like my foreign legal roses, orchids, etc." So do I. I also like my: zinnias, butterfly bushes(dead-headed), scabiosa, morning glories, marigolds, cosmos, nasturtiums, garlic chives, egyptian walking onion, chives, tomatoes, lettuces, astilbes, asian lillies, stargazer lillies, columbine cultivars, foxglove, sweet william, carnations, miscanthus(cut down before it goes to seed), dames rocket (cut down before it goes to seed), rubeckia "prairie sun", irises, toad lillies, naked ladies, etc. I'm definitely NOT a purist. Anything goes, anything I'm attracted to in my front yard, unless by research I ascertain that it could be a problem for my neighbors or the natural areas out here, and we have lots of wetlands, kettles, moraines, fens, and bogs, which is the reason I'm so careful. April

I am thru with this subject, I wish to move on and do what I do best, be a great person, live my life well as to be respected in the life I lead, take great care of my gardens and keep my pets indoors so they do not do to my neighbors what theirs do to my yard and front door (yes female cats spray!!!!!!) but I'm not sure why this subject was brought up in this thread, I use a lot of white pepper. I have learned a lot since I've joined DG, I garden responsibly, and now will trade the same way! To each their own I say, hopefully with new information written in comments some will want to do the right thing. I just feel We are a very diverse group, with so many different thoughts, and I for one will not push my thoughs on anyone else. I wish you all a warm Holiday Season, Annie

Hanna1... Amen!

The main reason Buckthorn kills grass is not because of rust but because it is an allelopath. There are dozens of types of rust diseases, a number of which attack grass varieties...ever had orange shoes after mowing the lawn in the late summer? Yep, that's rust, but not the same rust that attacks oats.

http://www.justaddwater.ws/organizing_alien.htm

Bogman,

Very true..buckthorn is an alleopath. Have always known it to be one. What I didn't know is it is also a host plant for rust, one of the types that attacks grass, in my area. Your shoes turn orange while mowing. April

I suppose I'm lucky not to have your problem!!!!! My lawn is green all year round, the only rust I get is on certain Roses, and those I pull and throw away! The only tree in my front yard is a huge Hollywood Juniper (native of Southern California, lol) here it thrives at 25ft and about 20ft across, it's probably over 50 years old.

We want a picture.

Ok, I will do that on Monday when the sun shines on it (I hope) weather has been a little crazy here last few days, it really is something, half of me wants to trim it some more, the other half can't bare it!

Annie, while you're taking pictures of your tree, get some distance shots and some closeups of the leaves so you can add them to the PDB. Trees are always welcome there.

Dode

Can you point me to a reference for this, please, (I am very confused).
"What I didn't know is it is also a host plant for rust, one of the types that attacks grass, in my area. Your shoes turn orange while mowing"

Wouldn't it depend on the species grass the neighbor was growing?

There are may rusts of small grains and grasses, Puccinia graminis is one with many different hosts-Puccinia graminis f. sp. poae is the one that attacks bluegrasses. I thought these are the rusts that require Bearberry as its host, not Buckthorn. Other Puccinia species of rust infect a lot of grasses/grains and are really prevalant in your area.

Puccinia coronata var. avenae is the crown or leaf rust of oats and Buckthorn does indeed serve as an alternative host most do not have oats and oat vatieties as "lawn grasses"??? Ash rust (Puccinia sparganioides) is the only one I believe, that uses Spartina grasses as a host.

Probably of greater consideration is that the soybean aphid uses buckthorn as an overwintering host. In the fall, aphids lay eggs along the buds. These eggs overwinter and hatch in early spring. Aphids feed on newly emerging buckthorn leaves in May, then winged aphids move to soybeans in June.




This message was edited Nov 29, 2004 9:28 AM

And... the soybean aphid (Aphis nasturtii) is a major portion of the Asian Ladybeetle's (Harmonia axyridis) diet. We all love and adore those Asian Ladybeetles that look like tan Ladybugs- being facetious here as they stink and bite! In addition to soybean crops that these aphids happily chow down on, they have added potato crops to their diet. Poor farmers.