First Veggie Garden - Using Hay/Straw to Cover Exposed Soil

For our newly turned 18'x20' plot this spring, we bought a bale of bedding straw (cost about $4) and initially scattered about half of it to cover the paths as well as all the exposed ground once the seedlings emerged. We used the rest of the bale a few weeks ago to refresh the soil cover.

Now, I got this idea from a small gardening book that I practically read from cover to cover late last winter when SO1 said we really really *could* turn over ground for a veggie garden, and to start planning... which I did in earnest! :) I needed to start learning a little bit about gardening somewhere, and quickly, and this book fit the ticket in its simplicity for a newbie. BTW, the book was Backyard Vegetable Gardening by Hugh Wiberg, copyright 1971.

And this experiment has worked well for us! It helped retain moisture in the ground during a very dry July, restricted our sightings of slugs and their traces, and certainly minimized the amount of weeding we had to perform (as compared to our neighbor's garden that had fully exposed soil). Woo Hoo!

Does anyone else have experience (directly or not) with this technique? Did it work for you? What surprised you the next spring, good *OR* bad?

Curious minds want to know, as we plan on increasing our veggie garden space next year by at least 30% and are seriously thinking of repeating this same technique. :)

Thanks in advance!
Donna/TuttiFrutti

Donna, this is a great technique! I've done it and the only problem I've encountered was having to pull up the wheat or oats that grow from the straw. (Those kernels that the combine missed). But they are a one shot deal, so it's not a problem. Keep layering it on and the soil benefits from it, the plants benefit from it, and you will have worms galore!

The one thing that I have had a problem learning is to NOT turn/till the soil. That just brings weed seeds up to the top to germinate. Especially if you have nasty ones like bindweed. I have that one. Just keep piling on the straw, compost, organic kitchen waste and such. I know, flies! Yep! But it's so much easier to deal with some flies around the garden for a bit than to have to deal with the weeds every day all season long.

Next spring, use your hoe to pull back a row/patch of the mulch and plant your veggies in there. You'll be surprised at how nice the soil is for planting, even without tilling. Once the plants are up and established, put the mulch back and keep adding to it, on top of the previous mulch.

If you want to expand your garden plot, why not start this fall? Put down a thick layer of straw, and weed out the "crop seeds" that germinate. By next spring, the turf grass and such should be mostly smothered/killed off and the soil beneath off to a great start. The earthworms will do a tremendous job under all that mulch.

Donna straw is great to mulch with. You get several benifits from using straw mulch when the garden is done tilled in it adds humas to your soil. Try to not use hay at any and all cost as hay causes many weeds to grow because it is full of seed. One year I mulched my potatoes with straw and they did great untill the dogs decided that was a good place to sleep. The potatoes grew clear and clean and really produced well and the straw was a lot easier to hill the potatoes with than raking dirt on them also easy to harvest. Ernie

Oh, thanks Ernie. I totally forgot to address using hay. Hay does have tons of weed seeds.

Joan:

I definitely have worms... umm, in my garden and all throughout the yard... and LOVE it! ;)

(gotta stop to tell ya'll that I whimpered a lil bit, okay, maybe did a small scream, when I first started weeding and taking care of the flower gardens before we turned the veggie one... I would be digging and all of a sudden found a HUGE wriggly earthworm/nightcrawler, not that I'm afraid of worms, just never seen so many in my life or so BIG... lol)

Since I've never gardened before, tilling *AFTER* the ground was initially turned and rocked (and rocked and rocked as we live in a river valley) never crossed my mind... LOL! Plus, I only left 2' paths every 2-3 rows of veggies which seemed much narrower for walking down after some of them grew up. :)

Bindweed is a MAJOR problem around the yard, though it wasn't much present in the garden area *BEFORE* we turned it over... where or where does that shtuff come from?! GRRR!

And I love your idea about not waiting until spring to till over the new soil! We bought a second bale of straw when we got the first (didn't know how much we'd need, so we protected the second one from the rain with a plastic cover, in hopes of using it next year), and while part of it went under the strawberry plants and zucchini, I think we have a nice start for the next section of veggie garden!

Ernie:

You sweetheart! Have you taken me under your wing as you have with so many other DG members as my guardian angel? I honestly think we might've used hay, but I pull weeds wherever they come from, so it could've been either hay or straw... but, 'hay', it was the cheapest bale of dry pale yellow stuff we could find at the feed store. *giggle*

Comment noted for future 'straw' purchases! And Ernie, your posts always make me smile when I read them, whether to me directly or to others. You're a gem! :)

Gosh, I'm so encouraged about doing this again next year!!!

*HUGS* to both of ya!
Donna

I've read that bindweed seeds can lie dormant for 50-100 years, then when brought up to the surface, germinate.

I believe it, because I've fought bindweed ever since we moved here 13 years ago, and finally had it almost gone. But then we built the house two years ago and tore up a lot of our yard. Now I have bindweed poking it's ugly head up in my new grass, flowerbeds and everywhere. I just keep pulling it up and throwing it in the dumpster so it can't make new starts, and I keep piling in the mulch and compost to smother it. Eventually I'll get it irradicated again.

Donna you can insult the weeds even further if you put six sheets of newspaper down before putting the straw down. Stick with me and I will have you watering with t tape under the mulch. Very good for the plants because they have a very even supply of moisture. Very good for you because you can set it and forget itof a few hours and you are done watering for a few days. Not a drop of water is wasted this way it all goes down into the ground none is lost to evaporation. Ernie

Oh noooo... lol... I'll be fighting this bindweed for years?!

I'm not too much discouraged, however; we've been using restricted amounts of poisins elsewhere in the yard to try to eradicate the bindweed, and it is working fabulously. I've also postulated (put thoughts forward into the future) that the main roots will cease and desist to give me a bindweed-free veggie garden and *NOT* pop up there since we've given them no where else to go.

Okay, so that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! ;)

Sounds like you've done your homework well and will get a great veggie garden going as well as keep the bindweed under control.

Remember that every time you turn the soil you are bringing up more weed seeds that will germinate, and stick with Ernie. He knows more about your area and the conditions than I do.

Sweet Joan, while I may seem to joke around a bit at times, I take responses to my questions very seriously as I appreciate *ALL* advice that experienced folks can provide, like you and Ernie have already done.

THANK YOU for being on this site to share some of the knowledge you possess with me as a mere gardening newbie! :)

Oh, I get the feeling that you are apologizing for something? No, you have no reason to do that. I was patting you on the back because you have done your homework and by asking questions here, you are getting more information. You are doing good. And Ernie is in your area and can give you better advice than I can. Last I heard I think it was still raining once in awile in WA? We are SO dry! Therefore, Ernie is much better suited to get you started with your conditions.

Thank you, Joan! You make my heart smile, 'cause I am learning so much!!! :)

The skies delivered a delightfully cool weather front accompanied by gentle rain over the past couple of days, so we could even turn off the AC during that time! As I understand from being a relative newbie to Eastern Washington (on my second summer), these conditions are unusual for this time of year, but oh so welcome, like a hint of fall during the dog days of summer! It is generally quite arid, so the rain gave us a nice respite from the hours of daily watering and fretting about the garden.

Folks here on DG are so helpful in freely offering advice, I sometimes get overwhelmed a bit at times in realizing they are doing it because they can, and not because they have to. How refreshing!

I love this site! :)

Hi guys, I have a question about the straw/hay issue. I read before laying it as mulch to buy straw and not hay. What I bought from the fruit farm nearby for $5, she called straw, but when I was laying it I did see a lot of what looked like seeds so I hope I got the right stuff. What's the difference really or how can you tell the difference?

Thanks!
Jen

Jen, WELCOME TO DG!

Hay is when the grains are still on the stalks, straw is when the stalks have been threshed (meaning there are no grains).

I've used hay before and it's worked fine for me, very little weeds/grains popping up. That could be though becus I use much more that the amount mentioned in this thread. I really pile it on thick!

For more info ya'll should check out Ruth Stout books, she was acredited with this 'constant mulch' bed, a.k.a. "No Work Garden".

I luv mine and it's a proven success! When I first started it there was a rather lengthy thread on DG...lots of good info there. I'll try to find it a post back.

Happy Gardening, Ya'll!

Well it sounds like I laid hay then on my beds Horseshoe. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed and hope I won't have too much trouble with the weeds. Thanks for the info and the welcome!

Horseshoe, I have the Ruth Stout books on my shopping list! They were mentioned in the Wiberg book that I started with, and if I'm not mistaken, you recommended them in the Garden Bookworm a while back. :)

Ernie, for some reason I missed your post the other night about the newspaper and T-tape. I sure didn't mean to! We're strongly considering both; the newspaper is so incredibly practical, and we do need to change up the watering scheme. We're now handwatering most of the garden now (still using a sprinkler head on the ground in the middle of the corn rows) after learning a little lesson about overhead watering when the tomatoes started setting earlier in the season. :)

I think you'll be okay. The big thing is to really use as much straw/hay as possible. Many times you can get spoiled hay/straw from farmers, even if it is rotting down it is good stuff! Also leaves are good, and many cities will bring you their leaves that they collect in the Fall. In our county they have to find a way to recycle them if possible before they can just haul them to the dump (and pay a fee).

Okay...found the other link to the previous thread about this topic.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/169444.html

Hah!...I just came across this one again, too! Good reading, and offers good advice, good suggestions, and wonderful humor!

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/291946/No+work+garden

Thank you for those links! Both were very informative (and amusing, to boot). I never thought about doing a search on Ruth Stout when I started this thread; hopefully, no one will get too worked up at seeing yet another one on this topic. At least it's a bit shorter. ;)

I can definitely say, 'no one will get too worked up at seeing yet another one on this topic'.

Lots of people enjoy growing/gardening this way, myself included! Yay!

This is a great way for some people to have gardens...it's easy, it's less work than other methods, it's "eco-friendly", and mighty fine to brag about! I'm glad to see the interest is still out there, tuttifrutti! Thanks for starting this thread~! Good goin'!!!

Shoe, we are now absolutely convinced about doing this again next year... and SO1 has since surprised me by upping the increase in veggie garden size to almost 100%, if I wish...

(If I wish?!)
I'm grinning so big now that my face hurts!

We had already schemed about moving the garden shed (one of those lil 5'x8' temporary houses) to orient the door for better access from both the front and back yards. It's now definitely moving further south at the same time to open up the gardening space, and we're gonna take care of some other backyard 'attractions' (to yellow jackets, mostly! lol) in that area. Their scrap value will easily pay for the extra straw and manure we'll need next year. Woo Hoo!

My love SO1 (who BTW just recently joined DG himself!) needed to find out if I was really serious about veggie gardening after this first experimental year. He knew how much work it could be and didn't know how quickly this 'city gal' might get overwhelmed.

I think I passed the test.

*HUGS*
Donna

heheheh!....I think ya did good!

Hope I can help your garden endeavors an some way...I'm sure many folks here at DG will be more than happy to chip in also!

Looking forward to hearing about your gardens!!!

Donna sounds like you got de bug for sure maybe you could grow some things like cukes verticaly to save some space. Even though I have lots of room I can't resist putting fast growing lettuce and green onion sets between my slower maturing stuff. Just a habit from when I lived in town and my dad had a very small area for a garden.

Shoe I haven't seen a post telling of the success of the sweet un named costco peppers they should be ripe by now: Ernie

I ate a couple last week that had turned red, however I think they turned red from stress, not maturity, and therefore had a so-so taste. Many others at that time were green so I reckon I best get out there and take another look at them today, and take pics!

Will report back later!

I got a delightful email today from a member (I didn't realize non-subscribers could email until I thought about the PDB entries and trading and such) who could only read my initial post here. She was wondering about mice being attracted to the hay/straw as she wanted to cover the areas between her raised containers.

SO1 told me that mice wouldn't be interested in strewn straw but favored straw bales placed directly on the ground (for nesting), so I passed that along to her. We live in town and haven't seen any mice since we accidentally uncovered a nest early this spring, and it was long before we got any straw. Is there anything else I should pass along to her?

Ernie, I need to find out about vertical cucumber planting as almost all of mine got eaten up and I even ran out of Burpless seeds in the process of trying (the plants were outside of the veggie garden). I do love those scallions, though, and am thinking about planting more from where I pulled up the broccoli and even starting a pot for inside. *GRIN*

And now, speaking of bragging, if ya'll wanna see a lil synopsis (with pics) of my first veggie garden, please oh please come visit my "Welcome Mat" thread as I just posted recent ones there: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/431287/

Donna I give you a ten for your first try. I do see one poential point deduction area though. You can not fib your way out of this I see positive signs you have been leaving your tiller in the elaments. The upside down buckets are a dead giveaway.

As to growing cukes up not a problem have you looked at any of the folks posting of the upside down planting in a bucket of tomatoes. Think someone said they did cukes to. The fence I see is a good choice and so is the garden shed you mentioned Time to plant walla walla seed this weekend to winter over. just a few for early early onions in the spring. Ernie

But but but... we covered the important parts on that sweet old Pony tiller, Ernie, and even the doggoned bindweed took a liking to it to keep it warm until we found the Round-Up! ;)

(The tiller will find a nice dry home once we get the workshop cleared out a bit more, 'cause it's a treasure beyond belief!)

I almost tried the upside-down tomato bucket thing this year, too, but we had enough in the garden as it was and SO1 was working on extracting washing machine tubs for my potatoes. :) Cucs get so much heavier, yet by being hung up in buckets the fruit tree bugs might not find them as readily... hmm...

Do you honestly think that Walla Walla onions would work in my zone? I really like them, but we hit -13 degrees F early one morning last winter and scrambled when the intentionally dripping faucets stopped... though it was only briefly. And I honestly haven't considered trying anything that might survive a cold winter here.

Gets that cold here but not for extended periods of time. try a few they are pretty tough. They can't freeze dead untill the dirt freezes solid some of your straw on top from dec till feb 15 should see them through.. Walla wallas grown over the winter are awsome in early spring so is cauliflower. Not sure you can make the flower work but would bet money on the onions.Ernie

YES!!! I knew there were many reasons to trying out this straw mulch... just hadn't read further in the book than I needed to. We do love cauliflower, too, but didn't think I could do that one either.

*can already see SO1 holding his back... "Elizabeth, I cain't take it anymore"... LOL*

We have so many plans for fall when our harvesting is done. This is but a drop in the bucket for new shtuff. ;)

Donna~
Just finished reading your this thread , I am growing the same way...

I am having problems with my CD drive, when I get it taken care of, I will post pictures. I have not read "Backyard Gardening", but I will tell you that Ruth Stout's "Year-Round Mulch" is a must, must , must!!!

We have field mice by the thousands out here, they literally wait by the door to try and get in, esp when the weather changes. But not a one in my garden!!! I have noticed that Toads and Turtles love to live in the hay, a real plus. Personally, I have decided to prefer hay over straw, as the leaves and seeds feed the soil. And as Shoe mentioned, if you put it down thick enough, NOTHING will germinate. (almost)

Guess I should have posted this in that other thread, huh? But, anyway, thanks for the tomato info, and happy YEAR-ROUND gardening (and eating).
~Tamara (for short)

Ernie~more info on the watering system please. I am currently using soaker hoses, and don't have newspaper down this year, but still have plenty of room to expand, so TELL ME MORE...
~Cornius (who will be pickin' it soon)

I have learned so much from this thread!!! I had a ton of weeds in my new veggie garden this year and with a 2 yr. old they pretty much WON. I still had great veggies due to the tons of compost but don't want to play in the weeds again next summer!!! I am certainly going to do the straw but have yet another question..

I am planning on planting a cover crop of Winter Rye this fall -- my original plans were to till it under in Spring. Now I don't want to - is it possible to have my cake and eat it too? I have already ordered the seeds - (Pinetree and Johnny's can't be beat!) My DH will be SOO happy if we decide not to till!! Even with the compost we still have the delightful clay and he gets to do the tilling even though this is my obsession. Look forward to hearing about your experiences!

Nc don't know for sure about NC but year before last I planted winter rye as a cover crop thats the last time for me. It grew all winter and just erupted in early spring after much tilling and still having a mess so thick I could'nt plant in I got a plow then retilled. Probably would have been ok if I had tilled it in early Feb. This last fall I planted winter wheat and found it more to my liking. By having your cake and eating it to are you thinking a living mulch of rye? I don't think so but if your right let us know how it works out. I read something about doing that with dutch clover in corn and having success but not sure.

Cornius T tape is a cheap plastic tape with drip holes That attaches to a half inch poly pipe with a barbed fitting that screws on the tape and you poke a hole in the poly and insert the barbed end into the poly. These things can be simple or quite complex depending on your needs. At the start of the poly you need a regulator to reduce the pressure. If you have dirty water you will need a filter to keep the tape from plugging up. They sell this stuff pretty cheap Try looking up http://www.dripworks.com or http://www.groworganic.com

If you go to the photos forum eweeds garden tour and go half way down or so you will see a hoop house with out the top that has a small amount showing just look how effective it is. Waters very deep and waters so slow it goes down not out and away. Ernie

ncgardenaddict...a fantastic green manure/cover crop for our area is Crimson clover (not red or white clover). It grows thru the winter, blooms in the late spring. You can mow it if you like (in the late Spring) but no need to till it under. It really puts some good N in the ground and when it flowers it is great for bringing in the pollinators. (I've had people come over just to get their pic took in the cover flowers!)

As for rye...it's so easy to get perennial rye and annual rye confused. The winter rye you want is annual rye and should not come back on ya. However, it's growing season will depend on the weather.

You could also try growing some hairy vetch...will grow all winter (dies down some in super cold weather), adds good N to the soil, can be planted in (especially tomatoes!), will flower and bring in pollinators as well as beneficial bugs. It can re-seed but to me that is no big deal...let it.

I agree with ernie also...winter wheat has been used in our area for years and is a great kindness to offer your soil and garden. Most folks will turn it under when they plant though.

Care to elaborate more on what you are planting, and what goal you are hoping for?

I'm new to both i.e. gardening and the site and wondering: straw idea is great but with the winds it will just be "gone with the wind" ...:) How do you keep it in place? Unfortunately we moved the soil several times this season trying to get rid of weeds (ok, now I know better than that) and we ended up mowing through the whole area. Now we started all over again and our lettuce rows which were about 5" tall started growing back amongst very sharp, hard and angry weeds. What's the next step? Grass it? Fight it?

Howdy Nanumi.....and a big hearty WELOME TO DG~!

The straw/hay doesn't easily blow away. I wonder do you live in a very windy place?

I throw it down rather thickly; have sometimes thrown it down in "pads", especially in the beginning of my 'no work' garden.

What kind of weeds are you battling? This would help with an answer.

And what kind of soil do you have? Clay? Sand?, etc?

We don't typically have high wind here, but I *DID* water down the straw shortly after I put it down the first time... to keep it in place and to provide humidity for my plants in our arid climate. :)

*then steps back to keep reading and learning*

I live in a VERY windy area. When I first put straw down in the spring, it was blowing bad, but I didn't leave it in the flakes, I "fluffed" it, Big Mistake...So know I use hay, and if I get in bales, I leave it in the flakes. If I get it loose, I put it down VERY thick, i.e., 6 inches or more after watering. After that, it does not blow.
I have tossed around the idea of a cover crop, and decided I just need to "cover" with more hay.

I do, however have a related question...

We have a pasture that was worn down till it was not fit for animals. I had it plowed, but then didn't get it planted. So I had to have it mowed. Previously, the main weed was goathead, now add to that, careless weed, pigweed, and the like. The soil is very poor and acidic and dead. So I am considering a cover crop there, and I would like to know if wheat would be a good idea. I would want to plant bermuda grass there about the end of January, so would the wheat be harvest before that? And when should I plant the wheat? Alocal farmer who grows and bales bermuda grass hay said to use the seed with the uncrimped hull, put it out in mid winter. The cold will crack the hull, and you get better germination and growth that way.

eweed, I will check out those links, THANKS. Your garden looks wonderful!

Has anyone who is interested in this thread noticed that in the Dave's Garden forum there is a thread about starting a forum for this very type of thing. Kindof get all the "unconventional" info into one thread.

Please post your opinion there...

Here is a link:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/446608/

We could call it the Ruth Stout fan club I guess. LOL

I do in late sept or by mid oct but I don't know when you should in your area.TF but did you see the drip tape? Ernie

Ernie~
Well, I didn't mention it because I couldn't actually find it in the photo, don't know exactly what I am looking for. Expected it to be along the ground somewhere, is that right? Off the subject, we got a new pressure tank and valve put in today, FINALLY, so I can water more now.
Did I mention my corn? it is coming along, and I am so glad I planted some
As for the wheat, we are in similar zones, our first frost date is Oct 20, when is yours, that could help...