lilium White Henryi

Oh, oh, we cross posted, sorry about that.

Hmmm....I've been lurking here...(Love white henryi!)

I'm just trying to get my mind around these ideas...I don't know if this will make it worse, but what I think I get is that something planted spring 2008 will not do as well as something planted fall 2007. This makes sense to me. Despite whatever is stored in the bulb, we all know that spring-planted bulbs tend to be shorter and have less bloom their first year-they don't have as much established root to grow on.

But, it seems to me that the following year should even them up? For 2008, a spring 07 and a fall 07 planted bulb will have both been in the ground during the same semi-dormant, root building phase. I suppose the real variable would be the conditions where the fall 07 bulb "lived" over the summer compared to the conditions the spring 07 bulb faced, growing and blooming on less-established root systems?

Hmmm... are you trying to say that a spring-planted bulb has to do more "catch-up" over its first winter to make up for being planted directly in growing season, whereas a fall-planted bulb has already prepared itself for winter and can adjust more easily?

suzy - your last paragraph is the way I'm understanding what's been written so far.

I don't usually poke my nose in and offer my opinion on many things, but.....This is what I understand about the fall vs spring planted lily bulbs.

If you plant a bulb in the fall and it has time to establish some roots before the freezing weather comes, it will be further along establishing itself than the spring planted bulb. The spring planted bulb is busy doing several things; it must establish roots, put up a stem, and produce flowers. Generally, this is in a smalller time frame than given to the already planted (in the fall) lily bulb.

So I feel that the fall planted lily bulb has an advantage over the spring planted bulb during the first spring/summer, if the winter conditions were favorable. Does that mean I don't plant lily bulbs in the spring, heavens no! I do think the spring planting is benefical to orientals for the coming year and well... a lot of the sellers just don't get the bulbs to you early enough for good root growth in the fall ( especilly for us more northern growers ), and then shall we mention some of the lovelies that are only available in the spring.

Now... I think that under ideal circumstances, a fall planted bulb will definately out perform a spring planted bulb the first growing season, but after that I think they are on even ground.
Just my 2 cents worth :>)

Interesting ideas! There seems to be 2 schools of thought on this idea. I've read posts of northern gardeners who when planting Orientals, prefer to plant them in the spring, feeling that when given a full growing season to establish, they're better prepared to survive cold winters. However, in my area where hardiness is not an issue, I have found fall planted lilies to be sturdier and get taller the first year. I assumed it was because they had the fall and winter to develop strong root systems before vegetative growth began. Spring planted bulbs are often soooo ready to start growing (like those box store bulbs that have grown and budded in the bag), it seems they grow too fast to develop properly. I've also observed that bulbs I've planted earlier in spring perform better than those planted later. Seems to me, in either case, the more time they have to develop a good root system, the better. Its a matter of finding what works best for our individual zones and microclimates.

All that said, availability wins out. Since the selection is better in spring, that's when I usually get them. Lily bulbs are harvested so late, the fall marketing season is short and most bulbs end up going into cold storage for spring sales. Often the soil in northern zones is frozen before fall lilies arrive, so that makes the decision for many.

Well, I think I've just paraphrased everything said above, LOL. I'm enjoying everyone's ideas and experiences on this; great way to learn!
Neal

lilyfan, we cross posted. I should have just waited and said "ditto" LOL

I think that is the key, Lilyfan and Gemini. Sometimes we northern growers just get the fall ones too late, by the time they are harvested. And if we get them earlier, and we have a warm fall, then they sprout and in my experience, then skip the next blooming season. So I guess there is a narrow window of proper planting time for us in the fall.

I definitly agree with you that a fall planted bulb, planted early enough should do better the following spring, than a bulb planted the following spring.

Where I was confused was, I though Rick was saying the fall planted bulb and the spring planted bulb would not do as well thereafter, where to me it seems like they should do equally as well.

So, if I may, I would like to ask Rick for his patience with me to clarify this:

Do you think a lily bulb planted in spring 2007, and a lily bulb planted in fall 2007, all conditions being equal, will perform the same in 2008? And if not why not?

And if anyone thinks I'm being agrumentative, please don't. I really value Ricks opinion and experience, and want to be clear on this.

It seems to me that experience is winning out over theory. I've always believed that bulbs deliver what's inside, what was put there during the growing season at the grower's. My experience tells me that either what was put there at the grower's wasn't all that great, especially if I spring plant, especially Orientals, or that the later planting (rather than planting the prior fall) is responsible. I think our experience is what's important. DH is a sociologist, and when I point out to him what theory knows to be true, he responds with his empirical evidence. (I think he leans toward believing the fallacy of the false cause, lol.) Empirical evidence (experience) can be tainted by a lot of things, but theory is a general rule that applies except where individual conditions lead to relatively unique results.

Now that I've cleared that up... LOL

Crystal clear.

According to ME (LOL), I think you all have got the gist of it. Lilyfan's post sums up a lot of it quite well, with one minor caveat:

This is true, but not necessarily exclusive. Even if a bulb doesn't have time to establish in the fall, it will still have a jump on spring planted bulbs. Growth will begin before you are able to safely put a spring shovel in the ground to plant. And temperature will play a role as to what develops more rapidly - roots or shoots. I may be splitting hairs here, or may not be. I can't say how much of a jump late fall planting will have, but it will still have some advantage over spring, IMO.

I have a friend who routinely fall plants lilies, but does not always water the bulbs in. In many situations, this could be a good thing, as this first winter is probably most inviting for bulb rot, heaving, and deleterious ice formation. Food for another thread indeed. My point is that we might expect fall root development to be minimal, yet my friend seems to have good results.

About the thought that a spring 2008 planted lily will catch up to a fall 2007 planted lily by the end of season 2008:
Well, my 2 cents is: not completely catch up, but it's on its way. Comparing adjustment to the new environment and vigor, yes, they are equal. But because the spring planted bulb will be shorter with a smaller leaf area in general, and still have the same number of flowers to support, all other things being equal, one cannot expect the production of bulb of equal size to the larger plant that the fall planted bulb grew. This analysis also has incremental weight, I would expect, having less value with the vigorous hybrids, and ringing more true with species.

I did qualify the theory of fall vs. spring planting with a "for most lilies", and it is right that several have picked up on this. For the north, orientals planted in the spring for aforementioned reasons (by you, not me) is sound advice, and perhaps for orientpets too, depending on how far north you are. In addition, there is the strangeling Madonna lily, and Eugene Fox says the very best time to transplant martagons is after they flower (and assuming you can take a nice ball of soil along with). So much advice is incremental, with no real defined line of black versus white.

Revclaus's point about experience cannot be tossed out either. It is echoed by nearly every gardener I know.

And Susybell: semi-dormant instead of dormant bulbs.
------------------- Your are CORRECT! And food for yet another thread.


My gut reaction is: yes. But . . . .
------ Lily S will be better adapted. During growing season 2007, the bulb is being programmed in your garden to grow in 2008 in your garden. In year 2008 the bulb will be preprogrammed to have the right amount of energy reserves for the number of flowers it is programmed to produce. The root structure will be in balance also. The depth of the bulb will be adjusted (via contractile roots) to better serve its needs. But keep in mind that all this preprogramming is dependent on growing season 2007 in your garden.
----- Lily F bulb is also preprogrammed from growing season 2007, but not from your garden. Still, the adjustment time it does have throught the fall and early spring is definitely of value, but clearly does not match that of Lily S.

So even if Lily S and Lily F are identical bulbs to begin with, Lily S will have changed by fall 2007, due to it being reprogrammed by growing a season in your garden. Thus, in the fall of 2007 you are actually dealing with two different bulbs. So the answer to the question, I think, depends on the type of lily.
-- Orientpets seem to need a season to adjust, whether they are spring or fall planted. So in that case, in 2008, Lily F will seem stunted as they usually do the first season. And Lily S, having already gone through a season of adjustment, should have the correct proportions of leaf/flower/height.
-- For vigorous asiatics or trumpets, I'd even expect Lily S to outperform Lily F in 2008, because they adapt so quickly. In the fall of 2007, I would expect the Lily S bulb to have grown larger than its previous size (which would be the size of the Lily F bulb being planted at that time).
-- And all increments inbetween.
(Weaseled out of that question quite smoothly, thank you very much.)


Whew ! Happy and Successful New Year Everyone!

We are all both Students and Teachers.
I am always up for a mental exercise, thanks everyone.

Thanks for clearing that up, Leftwood...lol.

Wow! I'm thinking we are all saying pretty much the same thing! And you know what they say about great minds!!!!

Leftwood, I thought I had put in there the part about the fall planted bulb having a headstart on the spring planted just because it is in the ground and can respond to the weather way before we can get in the gardens to work. I must have edited it out trying to make more sense!

I was in Tulsa when I typed my response and now I'm back home and to check DG before I turned in for the night.

Happy New Year all you lily lovers!

Rick, it all makes perfect sense to me now. Thank you so much for all the time and thought you put into this thread, it will be very valuable to me. Thank you!

And happy New Year everyone.

question: Off Topic - how do you do the quote box? Are there directions someplace? I know how to do bold and italics, but not quote boxes. It would come in handy responding. I know I have read this someplace but have been unable to find it.

Thanks

My handy reference link:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2646955

Hiya Sue!

Thank You!

My grandson has grown up also and has a little sister who is able to torture him regularly now. They were torturing the scarecrow instead of each other while they stayed with us this last summer.