Pests: 4 O'Clocks and Japanese Beetles

i've sown some 4o'clocks to help kill off the japanese beetles before they eat my veggies. where is the best place to plant them? near or far away from the veggie beds, en mass or intermingled among the plants? i would also like to aid my hostas, roses and a few other plants where would i plant those?
thank
debi z

4 O'clocks kill Japanese Beetles? PLEASE give me more input on this.

The "companions" I plant as deterrent/repellants I intermingle with the vegies I'm trying to protect. That works if the plants (to be protected) are completely surrounded. Lure type plants seem to work better if they're planted "over there". Away from the plants to be protected. I hope that makes sense.

How do 4 Oclocks kill JB's? Are they a poison? I grew Pyrethrum silver feather last year for the first time. It turned out to be very pretty as well as effective. I didn't have a single pest on the pepper plants that were alongside, but I didn't notice dead bugs anywhere.

Chris

There are two schools of thought on trap crops and baits - one is to place them around the plants you're trying to protect - a "line of defense" technique.

Others argue that by placing them near the crops you're trying to protect, you're luring the insects (and perhaps more of them than would otherwise find your garden) right to the crop. There's always the chance that only some of them will consume the trap crop or bait, then the remainder of the herd will move on in to the real feast.

So I don't know the best place to plant them...close but not too close?

Chris, Dave swears by Mirabilis (4 o'clocks) for Japanese beetles - they are toxic (although I think the toxin is relatively mild to humans. But I still wouldn't let small children play around them unsupervised). I think there's another thread around here on Mirabilis and Jap. beetles...

I've planted some seeds, but I suspect I got them in a little late to do much good. I've already noticed the first wave of beetles on my grape plants :(

The only thing they really bother (here) are the roses......
I'm looking for the other thread. thanks for the heads up.

Chris

With most trap plants the reason they work is that they are so appealing as a host that the pest never wants to leave. That is, as long as there's plenty to go around. That's why traps are planted heavily, sometimes surrounding the main crop in a very thick layer.

Sometimes, too, a companion serves more than one purpose. For instance, radish is a trap plant for flea beetles, but it actually repels cucumber beetles. Thus, planting radish close to cukes is a no-brainer for that double protection.

thanks for the input. my 4'o'clocks are just sprouting so i hope at some time they'll work. have to try and start them earlier next year. I did horribly on seedlings this year. I flunked seed 101. :) but i'm trying outside now. i haven't given up entirely. :)

this is an interesting thread. i don't know much about the different bugs that creep in and start eating, i usually just find holes, or i did find those ugly green worms on my cabbages last year. i'm on the look out for them again. what are they called.?

Cabbage loopers? (I don't even try cabbage this far south, but I think that's what they're called.)

There are cabbage loopers and also cabbage worms that are from the imported cabbage moth (white with the dark spot on its wing).

Go_Vols, can you plant short season cabbage/broccoli in the early fall and get a late fall crop? I do that with broccoli; works very well. I also plant out my brussels sprouts in mid-July; by November/December it is ready to eat after a few frosts.

you are suppose to let them have a couple of frosts before you harvest the brussel sprouts and broccoli?

That is what brussels sprouts lovers say. Not being one myself, (yuck) :P> I harvest them according to the desires of the ones who love them (parents).

Broccoli can't stand as much cold as brussels sprouts. My brussels sprouts overwinter successfully (down to 0F), and I harvest as long as they are not buried in snow. When warm spring weather arrives, brussels sprouts start flowering, making them worthless for eating. Broccoli dies at about 20F.

maybe i'll see if there are any more plants @ the stores and plant some more now or maybe i'll even try seeds. that in itself itself would probably be more than i can expect of myself. :) but then god has been giving me a hand with my zinnia's (which i killed in flats this spring, along with everything else. :) but i'm trying)
debi z

4:00's are devastating to Jap. beetles. We had three 4:00 plants in the veggie garden last year, each plant grew to about 3' high and 3' wide, and around late June they were absolutely covered with the beetles. The beetles ate the entire plant, leaving bare stalks leftover, and the they all died. This year I've only seen just a couple j.beetles, and I believe it's because the 4:00's killed them all off last year.

I can't advocate 4:00's strongly enough. I'll use them every year from now on.

dave

I have a big patch of 4:00's in their own part of the garden. Based on your advice, I will transplant one of them under each of my two rugosas; but if they self-seed everywhere boy will I make you come and weed them all out LOL :)

Anyone else going to try this experiment?

oh boy, my 4"oclocks are about 1/3" tall and 1/3" wide. don't think they are going to do much to deter jap beetles quite yet. :)

I mix up a brew of 1 gallon water, 1 Tablespoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and 1 Tablespoon mouthwash. Pour some into a spray bottle and zap the Japanese Beetles. You have to do it every day, spraying each beetle, but it sure gets rid of them. It works on pretty much any pesky muncher. The oil smothers them. The mouthwash acts as a disinfectant, so you can use it on some diseases, too. It's safe for you, your plants, pets, and kids. I've also used it to spray the holes of carpenter bees. They're not too keen on coming back to an oil-coated spot.

BTW, don't think more is better. Too much soap or mouthwash can kill your plants.

Do Japanese Beetles actually eat the plant, or just the flowers? They are all over my magnolias and roses, but they don't seem to be eating the leaves. So do I need to worry about my tomato plants nearby? I guess it's too late to plant 4 o'clocks, but I'll try Queeniebird's concoction.
(Centreville, VA)

They definitely eat the plant - the whole thing. If you are really fortunate, you won't have any four o'clock plant left (nor will you see Japanese Beetles again that year).

dave

Dave, Are you saying the beetles will eat my rose bushes and magnolia tree??? Yikes!

No no. Well, maybe they will. But I was referring to the four o'clock plant. You definitely need to grow some (try this year, but definitely grow some next year). It will solve your problem.

dave

Thanks for the advice!

The beetles have eaten all my roses, leaves and flowers and spoilt the display. They have skeletonized the leaves on my crab apple trees and the River birches and many other ornamentals including Pyracantha. I recently planted Mirabilis but think it's too late for this year. About six of my neighbours put up the traps but all that did was to increase the population. I caught hundreds in a jar of soapy water but had to do this at least four times a day. Now I'm thinking milky spore but even that won't be effective unless the whole neighbourhood use it too.

oh my goodness louisa what a nightmare for you. i would do te milky spore and then perhaps approach some neighbors about it too. maybe make up a little flyer about it. can't hurt and most certainly will help some with your own populaton of them. good luck

What an interesting thread. Like many others, I didn't know about 4 o'clocks and Jap. beetles until now. The beetles eat the leaves off my Harry Lauder's Walking Stick (contorted filbert), so you can be sure I'll grow some 4 o'clocks from now on!

I cannot thank you all enough for the info on JB's. For the past two years I have lost all of my roses, nut trees and they were even munching on the leaves of my spent iris. I couldn't keep up with picking them off, so I resorted to "Sevin" and later realized I wasn't seeing my neighborly hummingbirds anymore. I was ready to give up and go for all spring bulbs. Maybe this year my boys and I can actually enjoy the garden instead of squishing bugs. You are all a blessing!

make sure you plant enough. i have them away from my garden to draw them away. also a good idea here is to start a few in good size containers. if you see them around your plants then you can move the pots closer to draw off the beetles. i have never seen a beetle in my garden but at my four o clocks i get tons.

now when i say good size containers i mean bigger then 3 gallons as they do grow tubers that come back each year.

here the seeds are already out at our walmart so its about time to plant. also start seedlings inside as other bettles like to eat them in the ground and then no seeds. hope this helps Marie

up here in north country, can the tubers be stored overwinter like a dahlia or canna tuber?

yes they are pretty hardy. just let it dry out and put it where nothing will eat it.

I've been fighting a small gray/white weevil,they've practically striped the leaves of my Black olive tree,devouring my African Iris's, and are now finding they're way to my Rose's. I've tried sevin as a last resort and doesnt seem to faze them.

i've seen something for weevil's from gardens alive i don't know if it works, but they have a good rep.here is the link they have about weevils.
http://www.gardensalive.com/pestguide_item.asp?article_id=29
and they suggest nematoids to kill them.
http://www.gardensalive.com/item_display.asp?ProductNumber=5000
hope this helps.

Hey - I just estimated how many seeds I have left for 4:00's -about 150 - so anyone who wants some, email me! :) (And here I thought they were just pretty and smelled good!!)

never heard of 4 o'clocks and JB I have another method that I swear by Beneficial Nematodes. I put them out EVERY spring and seldom if ever see a beetle. B eofre I started this I had tons of them Here's one source http://www.marchbiological.com/L/beneficial_nematodes.html

Wonder if its the same nematode that they sell as Scanmask ?

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/beneficial-nematodes.html

Planetnatural's price seems more reasonable.

brug growers use it for fungus gnats in the seedling house.

This message was edited Mar 10, 2005 8:34 PM

I have 4 O'Clocks scattered here and there throughout my gardens.

If nothing else my JB population was heavier than ever last year.

I have lots of 4 o'clocks also and that hasn't seemed to affect my over abundant population of beetles every year. I have finally decided to just ignore them and think about something else until their time on earth is spent and then I can go back to enjoying my plants again. It is just not worth the effort that it takes to try to get rid of them. I feel like it is kinda like pouring sand down a rat hole. A futile effort.

Elena , I bought DH Raspberry plants for his BD last year. He is crazy for the raspberries and at the market up here they were 4$ for a 1/2 pint container.

Anyway the JB were all over the berry plants.
I may try putting up some hoops and some kind of netting.

Is anybody listening???!! Use beneficial nematodes!!!!! I'm not kidding when I say I seldom if ever see a JB. It costs me about $30 a year to treat my 1/2 acres. I have wild grapes everywhere and some roses. NO JBs... Also my 2 outdoor cats have never ahd fleas... And (although I've never done this) they can be used for pest management in the greenhouse .... each plant can be watered with some neamtodes and things like thrips are GONE..... Sccoterbug included a link that is for neamtodes and there are several other sources

I was thinking Milky Spore and beneficial nematodes were the same thing.
But I see they are different. And I can apply nematodes anytime, and they kill fleas too!!! Yay. And Scooter's website has free shipping! I'm getting some. Thank you!

As I understand it Milky Spore takes longer to work but lasts longer. You can probably put the nematodes down a month or so earlier than I can...I put them down in early May.Of course, my last trip to the Cape, it SNOWED in MAY......Wonder if Mahoney's carries them?

Maybe I'll try both. It's snowing here again, now! We are supposed to get mild winters here!
I will have to check Mahoney's. They are starting to stock up for Spring. DS works there, so I get a discount.

I heard you guys got creamed this year.... My son lives in Revere and her got 4 feet right after Christmas. And one of the other kids who lives on the side of a mountain in the REAL western Mass (the Berkshires) got none cause teh wind blew so hard it blew it all away!! Go figure! I, for one, am SICK of it. Going to the flower show next week for a reprieve!!! We've gone from bitter cold to the 50's and back again!! But Spring is 10 days away!!!!